C&D Z06 vs F430 vs 997TT

[YSSMAN]

Damn, and I thought vectradriver was bad... I think speed_demon may have just taken the cake and the candles too!

firstly the z06 has a much bigger engine that produces only slightly more than the european cars so thats round one to the european engineers

Yes, but what does that prove about anything? The Chevrolet small-block the LS7 is based uppon is a design that has been around for 51 years, and is among the most reliable and powerful engines ever produced by any company anywhere in the world. Funny thing is, the Z06 gets better fuel mileage than the Ferrari and Lamborghini competition by a long shot, the Porsche just a tick behind due to it's variable turbo setup. So is it bad when Pagani runs a gigantic V12 in his sports car? What about AMG's 6.3L V8?

secondly both of the european cars handle much better than the american

And I point you twards C/D's road test of the F430, 997 Turbo, and Z06. The Chevrolet manages 1.01g on the skidpad, the Europeans tying with 0.97g. Even the standard Z51 can match that...

thirdly the build quality and realiability are much better in the european cars

We are talking about Ferrari right? Porsche maybe can hold a candle to the Corvette, but the Ferrari is a joke compared to the other two. The good thing about the Vette is that you can have it serviced at over 6,000 dealers here in the US, and it is quite easy to do work on the car yourself as well. I wouldn't try it with a Ferrari or Porsche, thats for sure.

Check out the JD Power and Associates reliability charts to see where European models rank. Heres a hint, check the bottom... Lexus sits on top, Buick and Cadillac a step behind, followed by Toyota and from there it is a pretty tight run between Ford, Honda, Chevrolet and Nissan.

the european cars look much nicer

Looks are relevant to the person who is looking at the particular car, and I still say the Corvette is one of the best looking cars made anywhere in the world. Not to say the Ferrari and Porsche don't look great either, but the Corvette is on-par in every way possible.

the Z06 is the top of the range car for america whereas the porsche and ferrari are the cheaper versions of european top end cars and so althougth they all might be in the same power band they really shouldnt be compared as the Z06 should be compared to the ferrari enzo, pagani zonda f, porsche carrera GT, maseatti mc12, buggati veyron etc as these are the european top end cars so this is what the Z06 should be compared to

...And you know what, performance wise the Z06 would be able to hang with a good number of the cars there as well. But on the baisis of size and class that the Corvette competes in, the Ferrari F430, 911, AM Vantage, M6, Viper, etc are all of it's main competition.

yes finaly a point to the americans the Z06 is cheap but then again its cheap because its made out of plastic and will break down so often youll end up spending about the same amount of money on repairs as just buying the ferrari or porsche in the first place

Where the hell are you getting your information from? The Corvette has been made of plastic since 1953, its called fiberglass, join the rest of the world and figure it out. As for build quality, the Corvette is argueably one of the better cars in GM's fleet, and most of the issues that I have known that occour with the car are electronic, thats it. Most of that is covered under warranty, and even after that is up, it isn't hard or expensive to work on Corvettes at all.

A friend of mine collects, rebuilds, and sells Corvettes as a part time job (he is also a fireman at the local fire department). I have never, ever, herd him complain about high-priced replacement parts, nor have I ever seen a Corvette in rough shape like I have a few 911s. If they were bad, no one would buy them, but guess what, they do. Chevrolet sells EVERY CORVETTE THEY BUILD, EVERY YEAR, and will continue to do so well into the future.

the porsche and ferrari are alot easier to handle unless your somne kind proffesional driver who can keep the rear wheels in check on the Z06(this isnt because of its "power" its because of its differetial) and so for the normal people who will be buyin them they will handle much better

Since when is it hard to drive a Corvette? I have to ask, have you ever driven any of the three cars listed above? And I'm talking any generation at any point here... I've driven Corvettes and 911s (sorry, no Ferraris), and the Corvette was much easier to drive than the 911.

...But then again, why are you complaining about oversteer? Thats part of the fun when driving a Corvette, so I don't see what the problem is. The differential has nothing to do with it either, as it is an LSD just like any other high-performance RWD car made in the last 50 years. That is for the most part built into the suspension to some extent, and thats what makes the car a blast to drive.

the Z06 may not be the fastest american car but it is one of the top end ones and i was just mentioning a few of the top end cars in europe but if you like then compare it to other euro cars such as the gallardo (cant remember how to spell it) because this isnt a top end car it costs less than the porsche and the ferrari has more power than both and can keep up with both on the bends

Wait, what the hell are you talking about? Do you even speak English? If you are refering to comparing the Corvette to the Gallarado, that would be like throwing a 2-month-old baby to a pack of wolves. The Gallardo doesn't stand a chance, even with the new special sauce they just added.

 

[Wolfe]

Perhaps I can show speed_demon where he's wrong in a way that is a little less aggressive...

firstly the z06 has a much bigger engine that produces only slightly more than the european cars so thats round one to the european engineers

Yes and no. The 911 is a turbo, so that's simply an unfair comparison, and the F430 is far more gutless than the Z06, which produces much more torque. Now, I'm not saying the Z06 is a torque monster, because there are European and Japanese engines of various designs that actually produce more torque/Liter than the LS7, sometimes even at a lower RPM.

The bottom line is that the Z06's engine is about as efficient with its power as a basic sports sedan's engine. Not great, but not bad, either, especially with outdated technology behind it.

secondly both of the european cars handle much better than the american

Skidpad, slalom, and Nurburgring times prove this wrong. The 911 Turbo is only 3 seconds or so faster around the 'Ring. The Z06 has quite a lot of grip, even if its limit is a little less friendly than the 911's and F430's.

thirdly the build quality and realiability are much better in the european cars

Porsche? Yes, but not by a huge margin. Ferrari? I wouldn't say so. Italian cars are notoriously unreliable, especially when it comes to a thoroughbred like a Ferrari.

the european cars look much nicer

That's your opinion, and despite the fact that I share that opinion, I know it doesn't prove anything.

the Z06 is the top of the range car for america whereas the porsche and ferrari are the cheaper versions of european top end cars and so althougth they all might be in the same power band they really shouldnt be compared as the Z06 should be compared to the ferrari enzo, pagani zonda f, porsche carrera GT, maseatti mc12, buggati veyron etc as these are the european top end cars so this is what the Z06 should be compared to

Actually, the Saleen S7 is a better match in terms of price, intentions, and performance. Besides, the huge price gap between the Z06 and those cars cannot be ignored.

yes finaly a point to the americans the Z06 is cheap but then again its cheap because its made out of plastic and will break down so often youll end up spending about the same amount of money on repairs as just buying the ferrari or porsche in the first place

If the engine is so inefficient in making power, how can it stress itself to the point of breaking? If the interior is so basic, how many electronic components do you think there are to go wrong? If everything about the car is so dated and old-fashioned, how expensive do you think the replacement parts are going to be?

Just accept that your country isn't even remotely good at making cars.

wow, and your from the UK? that's hilarious.

 

[Tornado]

Yes, but what does that prove about anything? The Chevrolet small-block the LS7 is based uppon is a design that has been around for 51 years, and is among the most reliable and powerful engines ever produced by any company anywhere in the world.

Well, based upon a design that shares the same name with an engine that is 50 years old. The current small block is only 8-9 years old.

I have never, ever, herd him complain about high-priced replacement parts, nor have I ever seen a Corvette in rough shape like I have a few 911s.

It must be said though, that most older 911's made before the 993 were driven hard and put away wet, with the Corvette having a "Dentist's car" stigma since the late 70's. The fact that the engine in itself requires a lot more care than the Corvette's due to it's air-cooled nature doesn't help (it's still a damn near bulletproof engine, but most people in this country don't even know how to change the damn oil in a Porsche engine).

Since when is it hard to drive a Corvette? I have to ask, have you ever driven any of the three cars listed above? And I'm talking any generation at any point here... I've driven Corvettes and 911s (sorry, no Ferraris), and the Corvette was much easier to drive than the 911.

Again, this is a generatioonal thing. Any AWD Porsche made after the 993 is basically a point and shoot vehicle. No skill required. In addition Automobile mentioned that it is a little harder to get 100% out of the Z06 than, say, the Viper.
Otherwise you are dead on. Except maybe the looks part.

 

[Famine]

wow, and your from the UK? that's hilarious.

Two wrongs don't make a right, 87chevy. Not all of us are insulting your country's car-making abilities - and I'd appreciate it if you didn't return the favour. And neanderthal... no. Just no. I hope to see that edited out next time I look.


Besides, we make our own not-particularly-practical, two-seater, track-oriented but road legal car, of which you may buy THREE for the price of the Z06 (two of the top of the range one) and, anecdotally of course, the only things faster than it are the £600,000 Enzo, £unobtanium Maserati MC-12 and £800,000 Koenigsegg CCX. The jury's still out on the Veyron, because no-one's given it a go on a track yet (other than a single recorded Nurburgring lap on a public day).

Is it better than the Z06? Who the hell knows? It's faster but less practical. It's uglier but can successfully be driven on the road (if a little wet most of the time over here) - the only reviews I've heard of the Z06 in Europe say that it's brilliant (note brilliant - from Europeans) on the track but almost impossible to live with on our roads. Horses for courses, as they say.


From what I can tell, the summary of the review is that the Z06 is the fastest on the track, but the other two are just nicer to live with when you drive them back off it onto the roads. That difference may not be enough in the US, where there's a $100,000 price difference twixt Corvette and Ferrari, but the reviewers feel it is enough in Europe where the gap is "only" £50,000. If you're going to have to trailer your track car away, you may as well spend £60,000 building a track car and not even pretend it's a road car.

 

[Scaff]

wow, and your from the UK? that's hilarious.

I have to agree with Famine here, its a comment that does little to help your cause, not to metion that its incorrect.

The UK make some of the most interesting, desirable and well screwed together cars in the world (just not always at the same time), what we can't do for toffee is run volume car manufacturers.

Its often been said that the bulk of the UK's car industry has always been more interested in the actual car being made than making any money off it.

Currently in the UK we have the single most productive Nissan factory outside of Japan. In addition every Civic sold worldwide is made a little over 3 miles from my door, 2 miles away every MINI body panel is produced and then another 23 miles away every MINI is made.

I'd say on a volume front we make cars quite well here in the UK.

Thats before we even start on low volume sports cars, how mant different manufacturers do you want? A small challenge, see how many you can name?

Are you honestly saying that we don't have a clue about making cars when we have Lotus, Aerial, Catherham, TVR, Radical, McLaren, Ultima, Ascari, Aston Martin, Invicta, Marcos, Noble, Westfield and many, many more.

Keep in mind that I haven't even started on the subject of Motorsport yet, the UK is arguably the world centre for motorsport development, engineering and build. And before getting all patriotic about American racing do a bit of research and see just how many teams racing in US only series use UK designed and built Chassis'.

I'm quite happy to admit that as a nation we seem to be unable to run car companies (outside of motorsport), but not able to make them? Well thats simply not even close to true.

And I point you twards C/D's road test of the F430, 997 Turbo, and Z06. The Chevrolet manages 1.01g on the skidpad, the Europeans tying with 0.97g. Even the standard Z51 can match that...

Sorry about this YSSMAN, but you have managed to hit one of my weak areas.

Skidpan results are not, nor will they ever be a valid measure of a cars handling ability. Its a figure that magazines all over the world like to use and actually means very little.

You can in most cases change the radius the test is run over and get very different results. It also gives you little information about how a car reacts to steering input, how it handles tracnsitions from one corner to the next, how well it communicates with the driver and informs the driver of the limit.

It can also be very missleading when it comes to actual handling, R&T figure the '03 Boxter at 0.91g (on a 200ft skidpan) but does that make it a poor handling car? Of course it doesn't. A skid-pan test tells you the lat-g's a car can pull in a very specific set of conditions; conditions that have little real world relivence. It will give you an idea of the maximum grip levels offered by the tyres on a flat surface, but little else.

Slalom tests are a little better, but still far to specific to be an overall indicator.

Personally without being able to drive a car and see for myself I would much rather read a well written piece that describes the cars handling characteristics (particularly in regard to feel and communication at or near the limit) than judge a car on a couple of numbers.

Regards

Scaff

 

[1X83Z]

I have to agree with Famine here, its a comment that does little to help your cause, not to metion that its incorrect.

You two need a lesson on taking jokes then - I'm not sure why you both took it personally, nor why you both felt the need to give stern replies, but if you look at it as a joke, then it's funny.

The UK make some of the most interesting, desirable and well screwed together cars in the world (just not always at the same time), what we can't do for toffee is run volume car manufacturers.

With the exception of my car, those are the three least-reliable automobiles ever manufactured by God or man. One of my favorite quotes, which has been sitting above my computer for probably eight months now, goes, "The Esprit's most unlikely feat in The Spy Who Loved Me was starting every time Roger Moore turned the key."

Personally without being able to drive a car and see for myself I would much rather read a well written piece that describes the cars handling characteristics (particularly in regard to feel and communication at or near the limit) than judge a car on a couple of numbers.

As much as I want to rip you up for de-valuing my favorite form of objective handling measurement, you're completely right. Skidpad is a crap way to measure handling and the only way to really measure it is to get out there and test for yourself. I also hate it when people quote me track times - particularly ones that have little margin - because there are really too many variables there to determine anything substantial.

 

[Dave A]

My manager hates you right now Scaff, I've just spent the last 10 minuets ignoringh her while I read that 👍.

 

[Famine]

You two need a lesson on taking jokes then - I'm not sure why you both took it personally, nor why you both felt the need to give stern replies, but if you look at it as a joke, then it's funny.

I don't see many... "persons of other nationality" in this thread taking barbed comments about their car industry as a joke. Besides, I like to remain objective and as disinterested as possible. I probably do have a slight bias towards British cars, but for every Exige there's a Rover 25...

With the exception of my car, those are the three least-reliable automobiles ever manufactured by God or man.

Ph34r Ph14t!

Be in awe of Alfa!

Marvel at Mercedes!

Audi manage that?

Re-nault part unbroken!

This collection make the MkI Esprit, XJ40 and Range Rover seem like Hondas for reliability.

 

[Scaff]

You two need a lesson on taking jokes then - I'm not sure why you both took it personally, nor why you both felt the need to give stern replies, but if you look at it as a joke, then it's funny.

So the right to reply only goes one way?

No, only messing about, you know full well that somethings have to be replied to, personaly I take great pride in a lot of the British motor industry. Very few other countries can say they have the same scale of niche manufacturing or skill, particularly given the small size of the place.

We do have a good amount of un-reliable rubbish (the one you mentioned are far from the worse - you missed BL's product range from the 70's & 80's), then so does almost every country.

As much as I want to rip you up for de-valuing my favorite form of objective handling measurement, you're completely right. Skidpad is a crap way to measure handling and the only way to really measure it is to get out there and test for yourself. I also hate it when people quote me track times - particularly ones that have little margin - because there are really too many variables there to determine anything substantial.

Quite agree 👍

My manager hates you right now Scaff, I've just spent the last 10 minuets ignoringh her while I read that 👍.

Ah it's Friday and the sun is shining, she needs to relax. LOL


Regards

Scaff

 

[Famine]

Besides, we're British. We have a far more subtle sense of humour than you crude yankees...

 

[1X83Z]

I don't see many... "persons of other nationality" in this thread taking barbed comments about their car industry as a joke.

The obvious difference being that they're not made with about six "" smileys to show the clear intent of the poster...

And be serious - is that the best photo you could find of an Audi TT?

We do have a good amount of un-reliable rubbish (the one you mentioned are far from the worse - you missed BL's product range from the 70's & 80's), then so does almost every country.

Yes yes - but it's Britain who's got the image problem. The reason I think his remark was so funny is that that's exactly how British cars are viewed and have been viewed for a long time stateside.

 

[Scaff]

Yes yes - but it's Britain who's got the image problem. The reason I think his remark was so funny is that that's exactly how British cars are viewed and have been viewed for a long time stateside.

I don't have a problem with that, but know what you have to understand is that why Clarkson says what he does.

Because American cars have just as big an image problem in the UK, among the general population.

"Yank Tanks" as they are commonly known as still to this day seen as huge, wallowy, un-economical, crude and with all the handling prowess of a tug-boat.

Its this a true or far assesment of American cars? Not in my personal opinion, but the average British (and to a degree European) will hold this opinion.

What does however strike me is that Famine and I have been shot down for coming to the defence of the British car industry in this way (joke or not), however any European making a comment about US metal is roundly hammered (and in some cases quite rightly).

Certain sections of the membership are quite happy to correct Clarkson for his 'jokes', yet we are hammered for the same thing.

Personally a better understanding of both markets would help stop a lot of the plain daft comments made on both sides, on this occasion mainly by a couple of British members, but American members have at times been just as guilty.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Poverty]

I don't see many... "persons of other nationality" in this thread taking barbed comments about their car industry as a joke. Besides, I like to remain objective and as disinterested as possible. I probably do have a slight bias towards British cars, but for every Exige there's a Rover 25...



Ph34r Ph14t!

Be in awe of Alfa!

Marvel at Mercedes!

Audi manage that?

Re-nault part unbroken!

This collection make the MkI Esprit, XJ40 and Range Rover seem like Hondas for reliability.

There is no way in hell those british cars are more reliable than the audi and the same goes for the mercedes

theres a reason why british cars have a reputation world wide for being unreliable. hell that renault is more reliable than them too.

 

[ExigeEvan]

There is no way in hell those british cars are more reliable than the audi and the same goes for the mercedes

theres a reason why british cars have a reputation world wide for being unreliable. hell that renault is more reliable than them too.

The Audi I'm not sure, but the Mercedes I agree.

It was the most badly put together Mecedes ever. Not always because the engine would break down, but because things like the electronics and suck would fail.

 

[Famine]

There is no way in hell those british cars are more reliable than the audi and the same goes for the mercedes

theres a reason why british cars have a reputation world wide for being unreliable. hell that renault is more reliable than them too.

Brain into gear before finger to keyboard, Pov.

Ask yourself WHY I picked those cars.

Could it be because the Audi TT and Renault Espace ('97-'02) were the two least reliable cars on the market in the last year (59 and 69 claims per 100 cars respectively)?

Could it be because the Alfa 166 has an infamous issue with its electrics and spontaneously self-destructing for no apparent reason?

Could it be because the M-Class finished fourth bottom in 2004 - ahead of only the Peugeot 307, Renault Laguna and the aforementioned Espace?

Think, McFly, think.


Oddly, with the Audi TT and Espace propping up the table in 2005, British-built cars made up the top three - albeit in the form of Hondas for the top two and, astonishingly, the Rover 25 was third, FIVE TIMES MORE RELIABLE than the Audi TT.

No way in hell. Oh no.

 

[Scaff]

hell that renault is more reliable than them too.

As that's an Espace I can tell you first hand that it is one of the single most unreliable cars I have ever had the missfortune to work with.

Take a look at any years JD power or Top Gear survey, almost always in the bottom 10, which is a shame as if you do manage to get a good one they are great cars.

Scaff

 

[Poverty]

My friend had the espace, did loads of mileage on it and it ran fine, hence my amazement.

As for the TT, well I think I will do some of my own research later, on a world wide scale, it is after all the best selling coupe/roadster in recent times in europe.

and then theres all those reasons why one shouldnt quote from those terrible ice berg figure JD power surveys, especially seeing as they so often contradict each other.

 

[Famine]

and then theres all those reasons why one shouldnt quote from those terrible ice berg figure JD power surveys, especially seeing as they so often contradict each other.

JD Power surveys contradict each other? Like how?

And you be pleased to know I wasn't using JD Power surveys - of which reliability is only a small part anyway - but a reliability survey. In 2005 69 out of every 100 Espaces required out-of-schedule work. Second worst - that is, behind every other car on the market besides the Espace - was the Audi TT with "59% failure", compared to the previous year's "51% failure".

 

[Scaff]

My friend had the espace, did loads of mileage on it and it ran fine, hence my amazement.

My wife has a Fiat that has never had a non wear and tear problem, that doesn't make all Fiat's reliable.

I dealt with hundereds of Espace owners during my time with Renault Customer Service, great cars if they are running, but the build quality on they is a very well known issue in the industry.

As for the TT, well I think I will do some of my own research later, on a world wide scale, it is after all the best selling coupe/roadster in recent times in europe.

Best selling does not in any way equal reliability, I don't see what it has to do with the car being reliable or not.

and then theres all those reasons why one shouldnt quote from those terrible ice berg figure JD power surveys, especially seeing as they so often contradict each other.

What are you refering to now?

Please don't tell me its the age old myth that not having cup holders unrealistically drops cars down surveys.

The JD Power survey is very well regarded in the trade, as they provide a break down of each area, not just a single score.

As you can see the Audi TT here (from JD Power 2005) scores OK in terms of mechanical relaibility, but is let down by the quality of the exterior finish, the dealer network and the cost of work.


Regards

Scaff

 

[87chevy]

You two need a lesson on taking jokes then - I'm not sure why you both took it personally, nor why you both felt the need to give stern replies, but if you look at it as a joke, then it's funny.

👍

 

[niky]

My friend had the espace, did loads of mileage on it and it ran fine, hence my amazement.

As for the TT, well I think I will do some of my own research later, on a world wide scale, it is after all the best selling coupe/roadster in recent times in europe.

and then theres all those reasons why one shouldnt quote from those terrible ice berg figure JD power surveys, especially seeing as they so often contradict each other.

As I've said before, I have no firsthand or secondhand experience of Audi reliability, hence, I'm no expert on it... but the Audi TT is the only car under five years old I've seen sitting in a cloud of steam and being pushed up an off-ramp in traffic. Probably not representative, but I thought it was funny as hell, considering what those things cost here.

Best selling =/= reliable. But that's been said already.

BTW, this is getting funny... we should merge these two "vectradriver" threads...

 

[Famine]

👍

Well, so-rry for presenting a balanced view and requesting that the thread remains civil.

Oh no, wait... I'm not.

 

[///M-Spec]

I'm not quite sure how accurate it is:

Ferrari F430 = $168000

Chevrolet Corvette Z06: $64900
Audi A8L: $72100
BMW 325i: $30900
Yamaha YZF-R1: ~$14000 (total: $181900)

And that doesn't include the markups on the Z06s. Still - it'd certainly get you an F430 Spider - with about $11000 left over. Point well taken though - hard for anyone to argue with that. 👍

Yeah, I was probably hasty with how I added up the numbers. C/D lists the F430's base price at $174,535, though. I looked at some other sources and they agree with your 168k. I'm guessing C/D is listing the base price of the F430 with the F1 transmission.

Add the ceramic brakes (a $22,000 option) and you're up to 192k and change.

But hey, we're gazzlionaries. Why quibble over chump change?

Sorry about this YSSMAN, but you have managed to hit one of my weak areas.

Skidpan results are not, nor will they ever be a valid measure of a cars handling ability. Its a figure that magazines all over the world like to use and actually means very little.

You can in most cases change the radius the test is run over and get very different results. It also gives you little information about how a car reacts to steering input, how it handles tracnsitions from one corner to the next, how well it communicates with the driver and informs the driver of the limit.

It can also be very missleading when it comes to actual handling, R&T figure the '03 Boxter at 0.91g (on a 200ft skidpan) but does that make it a poor handling car? Of course it doesn't. A skid-pan test tells you the lat-g's a car can pull in a very specific set of conditions; conditions that have little real world relivence. It will give you an idea of the maximum grip levels offered by the tyres on a flat surface, but little else.

Slalom tests are a little better, but still far to specific to be an overall indicator.

Personally without being able to drive a car and see for myself I would much rather read a well written piece that describes the cars handling characteristics (particularly in regard to feel and communication at or near the limit) than judge a car on a couple of numbers.

Regards

Scaff

As much as I love to defend the Vette, Scaff (as usual) is spot on here.

Skidpad measures a car's mechanical grip. A (mostly) scientific, objective, factual measurement.

Handling is behavior. And it's one of those subjective, touchy-feely things that are highly dependant on personal preferences.

While it sounds like splitting hairs over terminology, it's not. A car can possess one quality but not the other. So often, it is an important distinction to make.


M

 

[vectradriver]

I can't help but point out, but the M Class (as you are saying, is unreliable) is made in Tuscaloosa... Now that's a fact not a dig. I've made my apologies in the other thread.

 

[YSSMAN]

Skidpad results are not, nor will they ever be a valid measure of a cars handling ability. Its a figure that magazines all over the world like to use and actually means very little

....

Slalom tests are a little better, but still far to specific to be an overall indicator.

Yes, and while I do agree for the most part, skidpad ratings are still a good indication of how a car grips the road, and I guess for some people, that is important. Lest we foget that I'm a "numbers oriented American"... I attempted to find the slalom test (or lane change test), and I couldn't seem to locate it in the issue. That usually is a pretty good indicator as well, I think we can all agree there, but I belive the track runs took priority away from the other tests.

---

About the British Car Industy:

I love British cars, no questions there. Without cars like the MG, Triumph, etc we wouldn't have had cars like the Corvette, Thunderbird, and Cobra in the US, and we still owe a lot to you for it. Yes, your reliablity may come into question from time to time, but that is part of what gives your cars character.

I've always been a Jaguar fan, and with the new toys from Lotus and Caterham finially comming to the US, it only expands my love for the entire lineup of British automobiles. Now if you guys can just work on getting TVR and Marcos here, then we will be all set!

 

[Duke]

There is no way in hell those british cars are more reliable than the audi and the same goes for the mercedes

Have you read anything about Mercedes in the last couple of years?

And there was a time, not so long ago, when Audis drove off the dealer's lot with one headlight dimmer than the other. Applying the brakes and the turnsignals at the same time would result in a random and arbitrary assortment of bright, dim, and just plain unlit signals on the back of the car.

 

[Poverty]

Have you read anything about Mercedes in the last couple of years?

I fully well know mercedes have been having trouble (although its made to seem worse than it actual is just because its a mercedes) but those british cars (the ones pictured) were the epitome of unreliability.

As for mercedes' troubles blame chryslers meddling.

 

[Tornado]

It's Chrysler's fault that Mercedes bought the company? Or that Mercedes decided to fill every car with electronics in all places (such as, you know, the brakes!) and not make sure that said electronics would work? If you say so.

 

[vectradriver]

The back-tracking they've had to do with Servotronic is hilarious. That's a pretty high pedestal to fall from, being renowned as technical innovators.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Skidpan results are not, nor will they ever be a valid measure of a cars handling ability. Its a figure that magazines all over the world like to use and actually means very little.

Then why do they use it?

You can in most cases change the radius the test is run over and get very different results. It also gives you little information about how a car reacts to steering input, how it handles tracnsitions from one corner to the next, how well it communicates with the driver and informs the driver of the limit.

But it's a 200-ft radius. that's the standard. changing it might change results, depending on gears, turning radius, downforce, toe setups, camber, lots of things. But 200FT is a big enough circle that toe isnt a major factor, turning radius has no play, in short, its big enough to eliminate slow-speed problems some cars could incur. Also, it's not big enough for downforce to come into play, as cars won't see high enough speeds, and as for gears, well, all you can do is pick a size and make cars all conform as best they can.

It can also be very missleading when it comes to actual handling, R&T figure the '03 Boxter at 0.91g (on a 200ft skidpan) but does that make it a poor handling car? Of course it doesn't. A skid-pan test tells you the lat-g's a car can pull in a very specific set of conditions; conditions that have little real world relivence. It will give you an idea of the maximum grip levels offered by the tyres on a flat surface, but little else.

That's precisly the point. It tells you how many g's = speed, a car can take a corner at, given no exceptions (i.e., bumps, uneven, etc.). is there any other way to measure a car's cornering grip? nope.

Slalom tests are a little better, but still far to specific to be an overall indicator.

They give you the transition statistics you were just asking the skidpad for. problem solved.

Personally without being able to drive a car and see for myself I would much rather read a well written piece that describes the cars handling characteristics (particularly in regard to feel and communication at or near the limit) than judge a car on a couple of numbers.

Regards

Scaff

But a well-written piece, is liable to be determind by personal opinion, and can vary drastically between 2 drivers, let alone 20. Define Handling. Are you saying, "I want this car to be enjoyable, in every way, with corner speed 2nd", or are you saying "Handling is the ability of a car to go around corners in general at the highest possible speed"
I'll take the second, it's more reliable, & fact-based, instead of personal opinions abounding.
Thing is, INDY cars, for example, have twitch-oversteer that makes Vettes seem like Civics. But they handle better. They don't drive as nice, but they arent luxery tourers...what do you want? a sportscar? or a sports tourer?