Chevrolet Volt/Cadillac ELR Thread: 2016 EPA Ratings

[YSSMAN]

Not sure. The tax credits could have been a driving force for early adopters on the Prius. It helps the Fusion as well (which has a $4300 credit, I think).

If the actual price was $32K, for the MSRP, that would be an excellent deal. I'm still not sure how $40K will float with the general public. Time will tell.

 

[Omnis]

Not sure. The tax credits could have been a driving force for early adopters on the Prius. It helps the Fusion as well (which has a $4300 credit, I think).

If the actual price was $32K, for the MSRP, that would be an excellent deal. I'm still not sure how $40K will float with the general public. Time will tell.

People aren't going to buy electric econoboxes for 40 large.

 

[Joey D]

People still bought and still buy the grossly overpriced Toyota Prius, but then again it says Toyota on it which people instantly associate with a good car. I don't know I'm tossing it back and forth in my head and I can't seem to figure out how well the car will sell. I mean obviously all of Hollywood will buy one but past that I don't really know.

The technology isn't even that ground breaking either so it's not like it's going open a whole new segment up. I still say the Honda Clarity FCX is the way of the future.

 

[YSSMAN]

People aren't going to buy electric econoboxes for 40 large.

I agree, which is why the pricing is so critical. Worse yet, its saddled with the Chevrolet badge, which isn't for everyone. Its a bigger car, but not that big.

Makes you wonder how Lexus will sell their Prius.



I think if the car was stickered for $30K flat, they'd have a fairly solid value on their hands, especially if it came with most "options" standard. They'll still sell quite a few at $40K, I think, but it won't replace the Prius as the green car of choice for most people.

 

[Philly]

People aren't going to buy electric econoboxes for 40 large.

I think for that price the car won't be described as an efficient car, but will ride off a tagline for being GREEN!

And theoretically that idea would work (as with the Prius example), but my fear is that Toyota has already pretty much sealed up the markets where the Volt would be sold. Just look around Seattle and not only is every green car a Prius, but a lot of the rest of the cars are Toyotas as well.

We will see how well GM can do battle on Toyota's battle ground. And whether they can sell the Volt to less eco-minded buyers.

 

[Tornado]

Not sure. The tax credits could have been a driving force for early adopters on the Prius. It helps the Fusion as well (which has a $4300 credit, I think).

Toyota and Ford also weren't facing sagging sales entirely because of government money, either. The government throwing $7500 more at the car as a tax credit is likely going to make people ignore it, and the brand as a whole possibly, that much more.

Makes you wonder how Lexus will sell their Prius.

They likely won't. I haven't seen a single preview of the car that didn't essentially say it was completely pointless, and I can't even think of a reason that anyone could justify it.

 

[McLaren]

People aren't going to buy electric econoboxes for 40 large.

Agreed. $40K can get you into a lot of other nice sedans with decent mpg. You'd really have to be a eco-junkie to get the Volt over them as well.

As for $32K, seems reasonable. But, I do think it's going to have to do everything it says decently enough to make people pay an extra $10,000 over the Prius or whatever else Japan is offering as an eco-car. The better looking design of Volt though, isn't going to do it alone.

 

[YSSMAN]

I think something we do have to ask is just how much the PHV Prius will cost when that shows up next year. We already know that the all-electric Tesla Model S comes it at $50K with the $7500 tax credit, and there are plenty of people who would say the $10K price difference is justifiable on content alone.

Take our car-obsessed minds out of the equation, its hard to know what regular people would be thinking. My Mom, who knows very little about cars, has already asked me repeatedly about the Volt. If they can sell it to middle-aged women, they can sell it to anyone.

 

[niky]

Tax breaks should die.

Here, we're looking at a $40,000 compact.

Take note... a compact. Not even a tweener, like the Prius (which is only a tweener because of the hatchback... really) but a compact.

For this much money, $16k gets you into a Honda Fit... the other $16k buys you 4000 gallons of $4/gal gas.

That's how many years of driving, now, before you match the Volt's price?

Hmmm... Excel time!

Given the equivalency factor posted on the wiki page (yes, I'm using wiki... yes, it's despicable... but I need a reference since I'm not familiar with Kw/hr charging in the US), the Volt's equivalence is 85 mpg...

So... we'll go by EPA figures for the Fit... 28 mpg for city use... and city use is where the Volt will be most efficient.

So... by my calculations... the subsidized Volt would require 167,000 miles before even breaking even with the Honda Fit. Of course, that's at $4 a gallon... which it isn't now, but will be in the future. As gas gets more expensive... it will go higher... but this still means you would have to drive a very long time before you even break even with a regular car with similar space and more utility.

And this doesn't take into account battery pack degradation... which will have a negative effect on estimated mileage after five years or so. The effect isn't very big on some hybrids... but on others, battery replacement does rear its ugly head past that mark.

If we remove the government incentive... it's 250,526 miles before you break even...

What a crock. And for those who feel that buying an electric is good for the environment... the amount of money spent on manufacture and transportation will roughly correlate to the amount of capital expended to build and fuel the vehicle... which roughly correlates to how much energy is needed for said production and fuel generation... which roughly correlates to your CO2 contribution to the environment, considering all companies practice carbon-offsetting (which is a crock in itself).

The Volt would only make sense if it could ROI within 100,000 miles or less... with a sticker price of $25,000 US. Otherwise, it's a huge price to pay for exceptional fuel economy.

It would have been better marketed as a Cadillac. As a quiet luxury compact that would spend very little time waiting at the pumps at the gas station. As it is... it's going to be a tough sell.

A very tough sell.

 

[McLaren]

Tax breaks should die.

Here, we're looking at a $40,000 compact.

Take note... a compact. Not even a tweener, like the Prius (which is only a tweener because of the hatchback... really) but a compact.

For this much money, $16k gets you into a Honda Fit... the other $16k buys you 4000 gallons of $4/gal gas.

That's how many years of driving, now, before you match the Volt's price?

Hmmm... Excel time!

Given the equivalency factor posted on the wiki page (yes, I'm using wiki... yes, it's despicable... but I need a reference since I'm not familiar with Kw/hr charging in the US), the Volt's equivalence is 85 mpg...

So... we'll go by EPA figures for the Fit... 28 mpg for city use... and city use is where the Volt will be most efficient.

So... by my calculations... the subsidized Volt would require 167,000 miles before even breaking even with the Honda Fit. Of course, that's at $4 a gallon... which it isn't now, but will be in the future. As gas gets more expensive... it will go higher... but this still means you would have to drive a very long time before you even break even with a regular car with similar space and more utility.

And this doesn't take into account battery pack degradation... which will have a negative effect on estimated mileage after five years or so. The effect isn't very big on some hybrids... but on others, battery replacement does rear its ugly head past that mark.

If we remove the government incentive... it's 250,526 miles before you break even...

What a crock. And for those who feel that buying an electric is good for the environment... the amount of money spent on manufacture and transportation will roughly correlate to the amount of capital expended to build and fuel the vehicle... which roughly correlates to how much energy is needed for said production and fuel generation... which roughly correlates to your CO2 contribution to the environment, considering all companies practice carbon-offsetting (which is a crock in itself).

The Volt would only make sense if it could ROI within 100,000 miles or less... with a sticker price of $25,000 US. Otherwise, it's a huge price to pay for exceptional fuel economy.

It would have been better marketed as a Cadillac. As a quiet luxury compact that would spend very little time waiting at the pumps at the gas station. As it is... it's going to be a tough sell.

A very tough sell.

We're talking Americans here, mate. That kind of logic & reasonable-ness makes you look like a loony.

 

[niky]

We're talking Americans here, mate. That kind of logic & reasonable-ness makes you look like a loony.

Don't tempt me to go further... if I could find the half-life expectancy of the battery pack, I'd factor it in, along with electric motor rewinds and gasoline engine overhauls...

 

[Philly]

I believe that as the price of gas increases, the break even mileage decreases there, niky.

But GM is going to have to charge up the wazoo in order for the Volt to make any kind of financial sense. It'll be further applications that are where the real benefit of the Volt will shine. Ect., as has been said over and over in this thread.

 

[Omnis]

We're talking Americans here, mate. That kind of logic & reasonable-ness makes you look like a loony.

No, Americans aren't that stupid. Only the socialist ecotards will buy this one.

Like I said, Failure on wheels. Thanks for breaking it down in detail, Niky.

 

[Philly]

No, Americans aren't that stupid. Only the socialist ecotards will buy this one.

Maybe. They all already own Priuses...

 

[Joey D]

Hold the phone.

REPORT: EPA planning to address outlandish fuel economy claims of electric cars
The EPA is aware that range-extended electric vehicles can game the current fuel economy test to deliver mileage estimates way up in the stratosphere. It makes for impressive advertising, like General Motors' touting of the Chevrolet Volt's estimated 230 mpg, but the EPA wants to give a more realistic reflection of the fuel efficiency of these types of cars, and it's not alone.

According to USA Today, the National Renewable Energy Laboratory would like the EPA's new formula to provide buyers information about the efficiency of the vehicle on either of its two fuels, providing two different numbers. An Israeli company also wants more data, pushing for three pieces of information: electricity used when fully charged, electricity consumed to top off the batteries, and how much fuel the range-extending gasoline engine uses when pressed into service.

The new ratings are important to consumers and automakers alike. If accurate, these new ratings would give buyers more insight into what they can actually expect to get. For now, carmakers are holding their breath to determine just what they'll be able to get away with claiming when advertising... let the lobbying begin!

Looks like something is going to be exposed at the end of this, I'll be curious to see the results on the Volt. Probably will be somewhere in the 50-70mpg range.

 

[Omnis]

Whats maintainence going to be like for these electric motors anyway?

 

[Tornado]

Probably non-existent. Meaning you have to pay GM to do anything and everything.
Though the motors themselves are probably reliable.



Edit: I worded that poorly, but I'm not sure how I should word it, so screw it.

 

[Azuremen]

Whats maintainence going to be like for these electric motors anyway?

I'd imagine rather simple, since there are very few moving parts to an electric motor.

 

[McLaren]

Looks like something is going to be exposed at the end of this, I'll be curious to see the results on the Volt. Probably will be somewhere in the 50-70mpg range.

If that be the case, then it looks like Clarkson's judgement of the Prius will apply to the Volt.


Buy a diesel.

 

[Philly]

My guess is that they'll be pretty reliable. I think we'd have heard a big stink about the Prius if its electric motor was causing servicing issues. And the same with the battery. The batteries in these cars are designed for longevity, because the automakers know how much it would cost to replace them. Apparently Toyota has never had to replace the battery pack on a Prius. Source.

But yeah, what Azuremen said basically.

 

[Jim Prower]

The electrics won't go wrong...I'm more worried about the electronics, and especially the LCD screens that've been so popular lately. Last I checked, they didn't much like high temps and direct sunlight...

*He says, typing his message out on one...*

 

[niky]

My guess is that they'll be pretty reliable. I think we'd have heard a big stink about the Prius if its electric motor was causing servicing issues. And the same with the battery. The batteries in these cars are designed for longevity, because the automakers know how much it would cost to replace them. Apparently Toyota has never had to replace the battery pack on a Prius. Source.

But yeah, what Azuremen said basically.

The Prius runs mostly in ICE... and only uses its electric motor at very low speeds and as a regenerative brake. This, coincidentally, also means the Prius is very gentle on its battery packs. Drove a gen.2 Prius... the amount of acceleration you can actually get out of the electric motor alone before the computer kicks in the ICE is pretty pathetic. Golf-cart comes to mind, but I have a sneaking suspicion golf carts are faster.

A depleting-charge hybrid will use its electric motors continuously... to accelerate, to maintain highway speed and to regenerate/brake. That's a lot more wear and tear.

Electric motors that do 100% of the driving won't like the heat... and the bearings can wear out... but they should have at least the same longevity as ICE, or somewhat better. I guess we'll know when the "lemon" complaints on Volts start pouring in about six months after it's released... (knocks on wood... hopes it doesn't happen).

The big issue is the controllers, electronics and associated heat generated by all that current. It was amusing watching an electric racecar "win" a Discovery Channel challenge against a go-kart... the two vehicles were of distinctly different classes (student-made racers on the same chassis with gas engines have much better performance) and the electric racer burned out a controller on the second day of testing.

 

[Philly]

Well, true that the Prius uses the electric motor a lot less than a pure electric would. But the point is that if Toyota can have 10 year old cars running around with zero problems with the electric drive equipment, however low the load on those parts actually is, it must be a pretty reliable technology. So no, that doesn't mean that every electric car will have the same success, but it still does show that it isn't all that problematic either. I also haven't heard of any Teslas grinding to a halt due to their battery/motor systems. But I could also just be looking at the wrong sources.

 

[niky]

Tesla is still too new... we won't know for a few years yet.

Sources on thetruthaboutcars.com (Steven Lang... he's a used car dealer) suggest that older Prii do experience battery degeneration, but it's Honda hybrids that are more problematic... both electrically and in the drivetrain... but the drivetrain issues are mostly due to the CVT, which has also been noted as a dog in terms of maintenance outside the US where it's used in the first generation Fit. Which is the (unspoken) reason why all global Fits now use a 5-speed AT gearbox instead of a CVT... no big loss... the 5-speed is a good box. Official line is that "customers were complaining about the unusual 'feel' of the CVT."


Riiiiiight.

 

[Radracing]

I would say electric motors would be reliable. Less moving parts and should be easy to replace too. It's really the battery issue on reliability in extreme weather and longivity of heavy use, plus cost of replacement. If they can sort that out I think electric cars will be a sucess. As far as driving distance on a charge that is solved by the on board generator. It will just have to be developed on fuel eficiency and charge effectiveness. As far as controllers go it's just getting the mapping right for traction control so that is pretty much a done deal.

But I do think that if they started a racing program purely for production EV's it would definitely accelarate developement and save all car manufacturers millions of dollars on R&D. So my question is why aren't we doing it? When we spend millions on NASCAR, FI, WRC, LEMANS and all the other racing venues. Isn't that the reason automotive racing evolved from to do R&D for the gasoline engined cars. I think it is electric cars turn to evolve and what better way to evolve than in a EV racing series.

 

[YSSMAN]

The only problem I can see, outside of the battery longevity, will be the "generators" (I don't know what they'll call them) that connects the gasoline/diesel engine to the electric battery and motor. Granted, it won't be using it often, but you do have to wonder how long it would be able to do with extreme occasional use (never using the gas engine except for maybe once, not very long, for months apart at a time) or all the time (when constantly exceeding the electric range). But, I have no idea what parts are involved with that. Probably some kind of CVT box, but I don't know.

I'd echo Jim's concerns over the dash as well. It being all touchy, and unproven, its hard to know how long it will all work.

 

[Jim Prower]

I'm amazed people are concerned with traction motors. The only proof of longevity you need is right on the Railroad tracks. Locomotives can get a million miles or more out of their traction motors...in fact, when they DO go bad, it's usually straight to the scrapheap for the entire bogies, they'll be that worn out. GE's traction motors, especially, were known for taking incredible amounts of abuse, which is why everyone but General Motors/EMD used them in the '50s.

 

[Radracing]

The only problem I can see, outside of the battery longevity, will be the "generators" (I don't know what they'll call them) that connects the gasoline/diesel engine to the electric battery and motor. Granted, it won't be using it often, but you do have to wonder how long it would be able to do with extreme occasional use (never using the gas engine except for maybe once, not very long, for months apart at a time) or all the time (when constantly exceeding the electric range). But, I have no idea what parts are involved with that. Probably some kind of CVT box, but I don't know.

I'd echo Jim's concerns over the dash as well. It being all touchy, and unproven, its hard to know how long it will all work.

Well we've been using portable generators for decades and they seem to work fine with long storage and occational use. It would be all in the fuel mix by adding fuel stabilizers to help keep fuels for long periods of time.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of touch screens either but that is an easy fix by moving back to traditional switches and knobs.

 

[niky]

Big, stationary diesels can go forever, as well.

There's a big difference between railroad needs and road needs. They can use bigger, simpler, more robust engines than automobiles, which need higher spinning engines and have more stop-start and acceleration-deceleration cycles than locomotives.

And big electrics will have less problem with heat build-up than small ones.

 

[Radracing]

Big, stationary diesels can go forever, as well.

There's a big difference between railroad needs and road needs. They can use bigger, simpler, more robust engines than automobiles, which need higher spinning engines and have more stop-start and acceleration-deceleration cycles than locomotives.

And big electrics will have less problem with heat build-up than small ones.

All the more reason to start an EV race series to sort out all the little things, just like what you just mentioned. I bet even a small inovative race team can sort those out in one season of testing and racing. They just need the motivation to do it like corporate sponsorships, goverment tax write offs and media exposure.

Off topic: Hey Niky, hope the typhoon in the Philippines didn't affect you too much.