Chevrolet Volt/Cadillac ELR Thread: 2016 EPA Ratings

[Rotary Junkie]

My problem with the Volt is that once that 40 mile range is up it's going to get noticeably worse efficiency than it would if the engine could be directly engaged to the drive wheels. Also, did I hear that weight correctly? 3900lbs? You're kidding, right?

 

[Keef]

Somebody please explain how the Volt's system works to me again. Am I right in saying that it can run on electricity alone for 40 miles (32 in this car) and once that's done a vestigial gasoline engine/generator turns on to make electricity to power the electric motors that keep you going until the engine then runs out of gas. Right?

 

[niky]

Yup.

 

[YSSMAN]

My problem with the Volt is that once that 40 mile range is up it's going to get noticeably worse efficiency than it would if the engine could be directly engaged to the drive wheels. Also, did I hear that weight correctly? 3900lbs? You're kidding, right?

Part of the problem is that we don't exactly know what kind of fuel efficiency they're going to be getting with these cars. We know for certain that we're looking at at least 32-35 miles of electric-only power. Everything after that, well, its up in the air. Chevrolet is claiming that the total range with the MPV5 would be a grand total of about 300 miles, and assuming that the vehicle uses a very small fuel tank (My understanding is that it is well-below 10 gallons), the actual fuel performance could actually be rather good.

Somebody please explain how the Volt's system works to me again.

You've got the basic idea.

The main thing to remember is that the gasoline engine, once it is activated, only operates to maintain the charge of the battery, occasionally having to work a little harder when conditions are a little more difficult.

 

[GTjazzabrandy]

I love the design!

 

[Philly]

If GM is going to build a ton of vehicles on the Voltec technology and style them all exactly the same, why don't they just go ahead and make a separate Volt brand?

 

[YSSMAN]

That'll probably depend on how successful the Volt is, but I'm under the assumption that General Motors Company would be far more interested in keeping it as a Chevrolet, as it is one of the top brands globally.

If the rumor is true that the Voltec technology can only go in vehicles no bigger/smaller than the Volt and MPV5, well, that's probably going to be the extent of the stuff. Until they stick it in Cadillacs and Buicks.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

The main thing to remember is that the gasoline engine, once it is activated, only operates to maintain the charge of the battery, occasionally having to work a little harder when conditions are a little more difficult.

Ah but there's the problem... There's noticeable amounts of energy lost having the engine power a generator which then powers an electric motor versus having the engine simply power the vehicle. When we manage to create 90+% efficient generators and electric motors (which is likely impossible) it will make sense. Until then, not so much.

 

[SuperShouden]

My head hurts. So...in 2000 GM made an EV that got 70 miles. Now, they release a new one that looks like a Toyota Prius and only gets 40 miles? So...in 11 years they went backwards? I'd say if you want EV, buy a Tesla. Sure it costs twice as much, but it's faster, looks better, and has a better range. Better yet, wait a year or two for the other EVs to come out. Or get the Nissan Leaf. It's cheap and gets 100 miles on a charge. Seriously, we know GM can't do hybrids correctly, and it's very obvious now, that they're just scared of the electric car, so they made there's worthless. I mean, don't golf carts have better ranges than the Volt?

 

[Tornado]

The EV-1 was a pair of seats sitting on top of about 1300 pounds of batteries, all encased in the most advanced materials that GM could bring themselves to build it on. The car was built (as was the EV Ford Ranger and the EV CR-V) simply to try to stave off at-the-time impending idiotic California regulations, and GM probably lost hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars on the product.
The Volt, as absolutely silly as it may be, is an actual attempt to build a practical, functional car. You can't really compare the two.

 

[niky]

The EV-1 was a pair of seats sitting on top of about 1300 pounds of batteries, all encased in the most advanced materials that GM could bring themselves to build it on. The car was built (as was the EV Ford Ranger and the EV CR-V) simply to try to stave off at-the-time impending idiotic California regulations, and GM probably lost hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars on the product.
The Volt, as absolutely silly as it may be, is an actual attempt to build a practical, functional car. You can't really compare the two.

Especially as the rumored cost of each EV-1 was far north of $100k US.

 

[NISM0_SKYLINE]

I saw a Volt a couple days at work without M plates, just normal everyday Michigan plates. All I get from that is we're about to see a lot of Volts cruising around in the next couple months. Which sucks because they're already common out here.

The new MPV looks kind of cool though. It's just a taller Volt, but there's something about the rear that looks good. I'll probably start seeing them soon anyway so I'll keep my eyes open.

 

[Joey D]

Ya they are showing up on normal plates but they still have the GM barcode on them. It'll be on the front windscreen somewhere. They are still GM owned vehicles but they are given out to employees of a certain level for like 3-6 months. My buddy's mom used to get a new car every 3 months and it was always the latest and greatest.

I don't think you'll retail ones till January.

 

[NISM0_SKYLINE]

Ah, alright. I looked the front over somewhat well and didn't see anything on the front bumper like usual. I was going to looking over more, but then I saw someone was still sitting in it so I didn't want to creep around them. Someone circling your car at 9'o clock at night at Home Depot can be kind of weird.

 

[Joey D]

Hmmm could be wrong then. I know they are doing some big Volt party in Rochester today, like a release thing or something so maybe they are out. Maybe I'll try to get out car driving in the next couple weeks to see what the dealers say.

 

[NISM0_SKYLINE]

I saw that on Channel 7 this morning. I think I'm going to see when my friend's dad gets a Volt and then go over and see it. I'm surprised I haven't seen and Leafs driving around yet either, it seems we usually get at least one test car cruising around.

 

[Joey D]

Ya with the auto mags around you always see stuff like that. I'm waiting for a buddy of mine to snag one from work since he is decently high up in the battery division at GM. I kinda want to drive one. I'm sure it's just like any other car, just with awful blind spots.

 

[NISM0_SKYLINE]

I haven't checked out Car and Driver in awhile so maybe I'll have to swing by them soon. I'm hoping my friend's dad gets one since they're LaFontaine and he works in the Performance and always has new cars. That's how I got a ride in the Camaro a month before it came out. They like to show people the cars, so you'd think the Volt would be a perfect car to pass out. The only negative is that my friend is in Utah for school, so I really have no reason to just show up at his house.

 

[homeforsummer]

My head hurts. So...in 2000 GM made an EV that got 70 miles. Now, they release a new one that looks like a Toyota Prius and only gets 40 miles? So...in 11 years they went backwards? I'd say if you want EV, buy a Tesla. Sure it costs twice as much, but it's faster, looks better, and has a better range. Better yet, wait a year or two for the other EVs to come out. Or get the Nissan Leaf. It's cheap and gets 100 miles on a charge. Seriously, we know GM can't do hybrids correctly, and it's very obvious now, that they're just scared of the electric car, so they made there's worthless. I mean, don't golf carts have better ranges than the Volt?

You're mostly right, though it's worth pointing out a few things.

The EV1 was a brilliant car but very niche market. The Volt has been designed to appeal to an audience still largely sceptical of EVs, but willing to find a middle ground. Niche cars designed to such exacting specifications still cost a lot of money - the original Honda Insight with very low drag and aluminium construction proved this - it was a 1.0 liter supermini costing £17,000 in the UK when normal 1.0 superminis would cost £7,000.

An EV1 built with today's know-how would have increased range, better safety etc, but it'd still be expensive and although people are prepared to empty their pockets for a sports car like a Tesla (and even then, Tesla's sales are slow) but it'd be much harder to shift a family car with that tech.

Nissan should do okay, but the tech in the Leaf is relatively straightforward, as it's basically a normal car that happens to have EV running gear. I drove the prototype here (or if you'd prefer, my full test is here) and it was remarkably normal to drive. It felt exactly like [insert generic Nissan here], it just happened to be silent.

The Leaf is great then, but if you don't recharge before the 100 miles (in good conditions) are up, then you grind to a halt. The idea of the Volt is to give people another option.

40 miles obviously isn't as good as 70 or 100, but then when you go past 40 you'll keep going. In an EV1 or Leaf, you stop unless you've charged it again.

If you literally never need to do journeys more than 100 miles or you have a second car for longer journeys, the Leaf will be a much, much better car. If you don't have the option to run two cars but most of your commuting is done within a 40-mile each-way journey (or twenty return if your place of work doesn't let you charge), then the Volt makes a lot of sense.

It's funny though. The Volt seems to get a lot of flack from both sides. Petrolheads dislike it because they think GM have wasted a load of money on it, and dyed-in-the-wool EV nuts dislike it because they think it's "not EV enough".

 

[YSSMAN]

40 miles obviously isn't as good as 70 or 100, but then when you go past 40 you'll keep going. In an EV1 or Leaf, you stop unless you've charged it again.

I'm trying to remember what the overall range was for the car. I thought it was right around 400 miles, which is pretty average for a car that size, still fairly decent considering how small its fuel tank is compared to a regular vehicle. I barely squeak out 400 miles in my Celica, and I could arguably do a lot more with the Volt overall.

It's funny though. The Volt seems to get a lot of flack from both sides. Petrolheads dislike it because they think GM have wasted a load of money on it, and dyed-in-the-wool EV nuts dislike it because they think it's "not EV enough".

Pretty much. It is a car of compromises that everyone had silly notions of before the car actually showed up. Give or take, it's about what I expected, and it is generally what I wanted it to be. A normal-looking electric car, that drives like a normal gasoline car, carries normal amounts of people and their stuff, and ultimately sells for a pretty normal price. Assuming that GM has done their homework and is figuring out how to stick Voltec technology into other vehicles, my guess is that version 2.0 will be quite the car.

 

[Keef]

One day American will be filled with full diesel-electric hybrids, where the wheels are powered exclusively by a system of batteris and electric motors, and the diesel engine is simply a generator, idling torqueily, turning a powerful generator to keep the batteries charged and send power to the electric motors. The cars will have small gas tanks because otherwise the fuel would go stale it lasts so long. The cars will have ranges of well over a thousand miles between fill-ups because diesel engines idle on magic.

Somebody explain to me why Americans are terrified of diesel engines to the point where they won't drive something that makes so much sense?

 

[SuperShouden]

The EV-1 was a pair of seats sitting on top of about 1300 pounds of batteries, all encased in the most advanced materials that GM could bring themselves to build it on. The car was built (as was the EV Ford Ranger and the EV CR-V) simply to try to stave off at-the-time impending idiotic California regulations, and GM probably lost hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars on the product.
The Volt, as absolutely silly as it may be, is an actual attempt to build a practical, functional car. You can't really compare the two.

You're mostly right, though it's worth pointing out a few things.

The EV1 was a brilliant car but very niche market. The Volt has been designed to appeal to an audience still largely sceptical of EVs, but willing to find a middle ground. Niche cars designed to such exacting specifications still cost a lot of money - the original Honda Insight with very low drag and aluminium construction proved this - it was a 1.0 liter supermini costing £17,000 in the UK when normal 1.0 superminis would cost £7,000.

An EV1 built with today's know-how would have increased range, better safety etc, but it'd still be expensive and although people are prepared to empty their pockets for a sports car like a Tesla (and even then, Tesla's sales are slow) but it'd be much harder to shift a family car with that tech.

This is what I'm saying. The EV1 weighed about as much as a Bugatti Veyron, and still got 70 miles. You would think that with today's technology, you'd be able to make a much lighter car that could get much further. I mean, the Tesla Roadster holds a record for longest distance on a single charge be an electric car at about 300 miles. But 40? Even if you can go further, you can't do it without a small gasoline or diesel motor. Chrysler's extended range EVs are about the same, but at least they don't advertise theirs as pure electric.

I still say that it would be wise to avoid Chevy's EV. Telsa and Toyota are supposed to be working together to produce the "BlueStar" EV which is supposed to be a full electric car that'll cost between $20k and $30k. So about as much as a Leaf. If you want to spend a little more, Tesla's sexy Model S is supposed to be a little over $50k.

EVs aren't anything new. Edison used to build them all the time. I'm sure Chevy could do better. But, I don't think they want to. Next year there should be a bunch of EVs with Chrysler tossing in their four EVs including Dodge's full electric, Lotus Europa based EV.

 

[Northstar]

Somebody explain to me why Americans are terrified of diesel engines to the point where they won't drive something that makes so much sense?

Because they are stupid and don't realize this.......

doesn't actually happen every time you step on the gas.

 

[YSSMAN]

EVs aren't anything new. Edison used to build them all the time. I'm sure Chevy could do better.

They probably could have if they wanted to build an all-electric vehicle. The Volt was never meant to be an all-electric. Depending on the success of the Volt, I'm willing to bet that GM will eventually do an EV car, probably based on the Aveo or the Cruze. I wouldn't count out a Buick/Opel EV either.

 

[homeforsummer]

This is what I'm saying. The EV1 weighed about as much as a Bugatti Veyron, and still got 70 miles. You would think that with today's technology, you'd be able to make a much lighter car that could get much further.

They could, but expense is a major part of it.

The EV1 was literally priceless, and they never actually sold any, just leased them. The Insight I mentioned was just a fairly standard hybrid, yet cost 130% more than the equivalent city car. Would people pay $100,000 for a Volt rival? I can answer that one - no. We don't even know if they'll pay $40k yet.

I'd love to see an EV as focused as the EV1 but we're unlikely to see it from a mainstream manufacturer until such point as they know they can make money from it.

I mean, the Tesla Roadster holds a record for longest distance on a single charge be an electric car at about 300 miles.

Incorrect: A Japanese team has got 623 miles

Tesla is highest for a production EV though I think, you're right. Around 312 miles ish.

But 40? Even if you can go further, you can't do it without a small gasoline or diesel motor. Chrysler's extended range EVs are about the same, but at least they don't advertise theirs as pure electric.

Nor do GM, to be fair. They've never claimed it was a pure EV, it's always been described as an extended-range EV. Which it still is, despite the revelation about direct drive between engine and wheels in some circumstances.

I still say that it would be wise to avoid Chevy's EV. Telsa and Toyota are supposed to be working together to produce the "BlueStar" EV which is supposed to be a full electric car that'll cost between $20k and $30k. So about as much as a Leaf. If you want to spend a little more, Tesla's sexy Model S is supposed to be a little over $50k.

I'd love to see the Model S in production but I really wouldn't advise holding your breath. It's still very much up in the air at Tesla at the moment.

What we do have are a bunch of other new EVs in the next few years, albeit ones based on regular platforms. Skoda, Saab, BMW, Volkswagen etc. All cars due roughly 2012-2013.

EVs aren't anything new. Edison used to build them all the time.

He only built a couple Did an article a short time ago on one of his that's been restored.

I'm sure Chevy could do better. But, I don't think they want to. Next year there should be a bunch of EVs with Chrysler tossing in their four EVs including Dodge's full electric, Lotus Europa based EV.

The bit in bold is the bit we really don't know yet. There's a lot of mistrust over GM and for good reason, but it's also not beyond reason that they've changed their ways. They got awfully close to dying and I don't think they're as complacent as they used to be.

As for the Dodge, to my knowledge that project has been canned.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

Nor do GM, to be fair. They've never claimed it was a pure EV, it's always been described as an extended-range EV. Which it still is, despite the revelation about direct drive between engine and wheels in some circumstances.

What the hell is an 'extended-range EV'?

It's GM market-speak & bureaucratese for "hybrid". Better engineering through marketing. That phrase was born out of a committee and it is not a car class despite the PR blitz & political shenanigans going on with the EPA.

And since I've been politely asked to refrain from posting about this Daewoo in the Chrysler thread, I'll leave these tidbits here;

Chevy Cruze Based Daewoo Lacetti Launches in Korea

2010 Chevrolet Cruze Test Drive: Volt Without the Plug—GM's Compact Sedan for 2011

"Is the new Chevy Cruze a rebranded Daewoo, or a genuinely novel GM product?"

The money quote:

Don’t believe everything you read everywhere. I could spend all day correcting the PR blather and mis-information endlessly passed along the press and blogosphere.

I already tried to explain it before, but here goes: Daewoo designed and engineered this car, using the GM Delta II platform. The platform was the starting point; that’s what they got from Opel. But from the platform on, Daewoo did the rest of the primary work to develop this car and get into production. Yes, they undoubtedly had input from NA and Holden, but Daewoo put it all together. It’s their car. They can take credit for it. And notice how Henderson doesn’t deny it. Because that’s the truth.

Another huge mis-conception is that the Saturn Vue and Opel Antera CUVs were designed by Opel. Flat out not true; both were designed by Daewoo. Which exlains why they’re so heavy (4200 lbs). Opel would not let that have happened.

A quote from a review about the Chevy Cruze, which is the Volt w/o the hybrid engine;

During the PR event in dreary Washington, DC, home of General Motors’ corrupt government owners and the mendacious lobbyists who pull their strings, we were continually reminded that the Cruze has been successfully sold in “sixty countries” so far. This is correct, and it’s troubling. To some degree, the Cruze is already old news upon its arrival here, the same way the Ford Fiesta has had a nice long run in Europe prior to visiting Ellis Island. Why?

The answer is simple: this is a Daewoo. My direct, repeated questions to GM personnel regarding the Cruze’s Korean ancestry were answered honestly but with perhaps too-scrupulous attention to detail. I was repeatedly told that “the architecture was engineered in Germany”, and I was repeatedly told about the “global nature” of the engineering, but the plain fact of the matter is that the Daewoo Lacetti was largely engineered, styled, and developed by Daewoo in Korea. It was then modified in some detail to become the Chevrolet Cruze. It’s a Korean car, and if it isn’t quite a Korean-market transplant like the Aveo, it’s very far from being a European design like the Ford Focus or VW Jetta.

from here

GM will not confirm or deny that the Volt/Cruze is a Daewoo just like GM will not confirm or deny some of the pitiful MPG & electric range figures. And according to the SAE; the Volt is a hybrid despite what GM says on its website or press release.

Chevy Volt = Daewoo Lacetti Hybrid

 

[GT_Prologue5]

What the hell is an 'extended-range EV'?

GM will not confirm or deny that the Volt/Cruze is a Daewoo just like GM will not confirm or deny some of the pitiful MPG & electric range figures. And according to the SAE; the Volt is a hybrid despite what GM says on its website or press release.

The MPG and range is not pitiful, please tell me where your facts are coming from? And yes the Volt is a hybrid, EVERYONE knows that. Extended range EV is just an electronic vehicle with a range extender, i.e. gasoline engine. The car wasn't meant for long range, it's a city car. And quit with the Daewoo stuff, it honestly cannot be that bad just because it was derived from them.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

The MPG and range is not pitiful, please tell me where your facts are coming from?

Car and Driver

But what about fuel economy, the Volt’s raison d’être? Well, that requires a fair bit of explanation. And much is still undecided; GM officials wouldn’t venture any estimates, citing that they’re in nearly daily talks with the EPA as to what will be on the Volt’s window sticker when the car hits showrooms in December.

Here’s what we do know: GM’s recently revised electric-range claim is 25 to 50 miles, and we ended up in the low to middle of that band. Getting on the nearest highway and commuting with the 80-mph flow of traffic—basically the worst-case scenario—yielded 26 miles; a fairly spirited back-road loop netted 31; and a carefully modulated cruise below 60 mph pushed the figure into the upper 30sEither way, one thing’s for sure: Operating an EV can be exceptionally cheap. Assuming 35 miles of electric range for the Volt yields a cost per mile of just 4.6 cents. That’s almost 40 percent less than that of a Volkswagen Golf TDI diesel getting 40 mpg and 24 percent cheaper than a Prius getting 45 mpg.

The economic picture is dimmer when operating the Volt using its gas engine. We averaged 35 mpg for our gas-powered miles and saw 33–34 mpg at a steady, near-80-mph cruise—not exactly spectacular compared with today’s hybrids

 

[Joey D]

For the love of God, it's not a freakin' Daewoo. It's on the Delta II platform which was developed by Opel.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

The car wasn't meant for long range, it's a city car. And quit with the Daewoo stuff, it honestly cannot be that bad just because it was derived from them.

If it's a city car, how & where are you supposed to plug it in? Last time I checked, most people in cities live in apartments or condos and have to park in lots or on a street. Can't have extension cords hanging 20 stories down and 4 blocks away now can you?

People who live & work in cities use public transportation. Don't believe me? Try to get on a train, subway, or bus around commuting time and you'll see it's standing room only.

People in the suburbs also take trains into cities as the commute is very long, irritating, and parking in cities can be very expensive.

So why do 'city people' have cars? So they can leave and go wherever they please without the hassles of bus routes, train times, and limited destinations. Get a booty call at 1am? Drive over. Want to see a concert in another city? Drive over. Need to bail out your friend? Drive over.

Public transport can only do so much. It doesn't go to your doorstep or to the front door of your destination. Nor will it arrive on your command. And in the wee hours of the night, they can be quite filthy and dangerous. That's why people have cars.

And if this is all about saving money on gas, well, you're paying $350/mo on a Volt lease and very expensive comprehensive insurance. If it's really about money,which it's not, the smart bet would be to buy a used car or a real $15,000 Korean car instead of a plug in $41,000 one. But it's not about $, it's about following the right fad.

And no, I'm not going to lay off the Daewoo thing. This needs to be screamed from the mountain tops b/c it's a disgrace and reeks of old bankrupt GM. This badge engineering and calling a Korean car an American car needs to stop.

Ford has the right idea and are coming out with some good stuff. It's too early to tell with Chrysler. GM? They're doing the same things that got them in trouble in the 1st place.