CSR Elite wheel: 3 steps forward and 2 steps back.

[LogiForce]

Please Logi, if I have to read again that your getting a CSW for testing Im gonna crack up mate. Really do think you need to tone that down now with almost 2 months on continuely reminding us. I think most are aware by now.

Whoops that was never my intention there. Sorry.
I didn't even realize it myself. Besides it will come when it does. I really don't care anymore. The only point was that when I get a wheel with that kind of base I'd be able to give my honest opinion more properly on the matter Thomas spoke of here. Namely the more advanced force feedback effects justifying the current rim on the Elite.

Anyway, I'll shut myself up about Fanatec related stuff as in my head it all ties to each other at the moment. Mostly because of the I don't know for sure until... issue.

I bet if you were to give CSW a try on a sim like iRacing you'd forget all bout FM 4. FM 4 is a quality game worthy of a great wheel. But it's not even in the same league as iracing

But since I have failed to persuade you to join gtp there then I guess for now a GT2 would be highly tempting.

Ehm, I never looked at that part of GTP. Sorry. Still I think I might have a look, but I really don't know if I'm up to par with you guys. Heh
Besides I never got further with iRacing then the testing screen and buying Brands Hatch, Spa and Zandvoort and driving the MX5 roadster on it.

 

[sandboxgod]

aww Logiforce isn't that bad. It's important the newer members figure out what's going on with who is testing what

And I hope I didnt drive the OP away. I'm afraid I've become a bit too fan-boyish with this csr-e. I've fallen in love with this thing quite maddenly

 

[LogiForce]

aww Logiforce isn't that bad. It's important the newer members figure out what's going on with who is testing what

And I hope I didnt drive the OP away. I'm afraid I've become a bit too fan-boyish with this csr-e. I've fallen in love with this thing quite maddenly

True but still if it's annoying folk... I wouldn't want to become an annoyance. Although I am sure I annoy all of you sometimes with some of my posts. lol

Well what you have with the Elite is what I have with the opportunity given to me by Thomas himself. I'm just so ecstatic about it that I sometimes say a thing too much like an annoying fanboy or a little child that is excited about going to Disneyland.
It is cute at first but gets annoying in the long run like Latte kindly hinted towards.

Ps updated my previous post in response to you.

 

[VWMasteR]

I don't think op is trolling, he wrote a generally good review and he paid for his wheel, so why would be bash it? He's just saying what he likes and what he doesn't like about the wheel, that's all (although I fail to see the point in his complaint regarding the rim flex).

I also don't think he is trolling. He may be using the item out of spec, but not trolling for sure. I didn't mind his review, and thought it offered an interesting new perspective. His extreme method might have pointed out an actual issue... who knows?

Actually it's great that the plastic is of the flexible kind and not the very solid type that easily brakes, this way you CAN actually abuse it a bit without breaking it like shown in the video.

I think I would have preferred a firm rim and not have seen that some wheels are made of a rubber-like material.

 

[blacbul67]

The amount of speculation on these forums at times is just mental.
When was it ever confirmed Fanatec did not design their own wheel rim.

Microsoft "certification" may have conditional requirements but I think comments relating to MS practicaly design the product in whole is rather absurb.

I agree, have MS dictated the design of all the other xbox wheels too?

 

[Mayaman]

👍

Great explanation.

Its kind of exactly what I said many posts ago. LOL

 

[superbike81]

This thread really should be labeled "3 steps forward, 1 step back" which equals 2 steps forward which is a pretty good review. The other "step back" only applies if you are susceptible to fits of psychotic rage (or a Marine who still has Boot mentality and hasn't been able to grow up yet).

 

[Vinceton]

It's called "stress testing" people. Of course nobody really drives like that. Would you rather find out that he broke it in a video, or 18 months after you've purchased it.

All expensive stuff do it, like TV's. They'll vibrate it for hours, and leave it on overnight. The units that don't make it, gets chucked out. Those units still cost them money, but they make up for it by pricing the working units higher. Of course nobody really uses their TVs on top of running washing machine. But it's got to be done at least once to find out which is crap. They're certainly not going to find out by hiring psychics.

He's certainly not going to demonstrate through a video by being subtle. Our sense of feel is much more sensitive than sight. My gt3 for instance, I can't even SEE any flex, or the flexes of my rig, but I can certainly FEEL a whole lot of it.

 

[superbike81]

It was indeed a form of "stress test" however this was completely over the top. A stress test for this would be to play the game for hours straight and see what happens, or connect it to a machine that replicates the forces NORMAL people NORMALLY apply to a steering wheel. We can't dumb everything down to meet the lowest common denominator or we end up with inferior products. If this kind of stress testing is so important, why haven't the 30 or so other reviews I've read on this wheel never mention anything about flexing in the wheel?

 

[thehawk05]

All expensive stuff do it, like TV's. They'll vibrate it for hours, and leave it on overnight. The units that don't make it, gets chucked out. Those units still cost them money, but they make up for it by pricing the working units higher. Of course nobody really uses their TVs on top of running washing machine. But it's got to be done at least once to find out which is crap.

You don't honestly believe they stress test all TVs and electronics like that do you?

Got news for ya.....they don't. They'll do some stress testing on a selected unit from a production run but the only testing they get is a quick test to verify the unit works and then it's packed and shipped. Same thing is done with cars when built.....a few cars from each production are taken for a road test for a couple miles or so but the rest go right off the factory floor and shipped to the dealer after quality inspection.

 

[sandboxgod]

ok so just did a few hrs of racing. I never get any flex at all. However i do have a screw lose somewhere. I used my allen wrench on the front bolts. Maybe I need to remove the steering column and tighten up the bolts in the rear i see back here.

So what I am getting is a tiny bit of play in my rim. But I've actually never been able to flex it like he has. You seriously gotta go incredible hulk to do that. I actually think that's pretty good it endured all that silly hulkin' out he was doin'

 

[scoddee]

I didn't crank down on my wheel to get it to flex like the op but I did put some force on it to see what kind of flex there was. I'm no hulk and I could easily bend my wheel that way without modifying it.

I agree it's a waste of time because 97% (it always looks better if you use a percentage) of people aren't dumb enough to do that to the wheel.

I also don't understand why people who don't even own the wheel post so much about it. If you haven't put your hands on one step away from post button.

Great, another member of the group that wants to tell us what and when we can post.

Scotty

 

[LogiForce]

You don't honestly believe they stress test all TVs and electronics like that do you?

Got news for ya.....they don't. They'll do some stress testing on a selected unit from a production run but the only testing they get is a quick test to verify the unit works and then it's packed and shipped. Same thing is done with cars when built.....a few cars from each production are taken for a road test for a couple miles or so but the rest go right off the factory floor and shipped to the dealer after quality inspection.

I think he is thinking about brands like Loewe and Bang&Olufsen. The Ferrari's under TV's or something like that. Talking about Ferrari's, they always test each one on their circuit to make sure they are working properly.
Anyhow, stress testing each unit is nuts for Fanatec. It would double the price at least. When buying a Frex or even more so a ECCI wheel I do expect such things. Specially since the ECCI was made per order only if I hear correct from you guys?

 

[superbike81]

Stress testing a Ferrari on the track is not the same as what this guy was doing to the wheel. That would be the equivalent of doing a full lap at Fiorano in 1st gear the entire time.

 

[VWMasteR]

Anyhow, stress testing each unit is nuts for Fanatec. It would double the price at least. When buying a Frex or even more so a ECCI wheel I do expect such things. Specially since the ECCI was made per order only if I hear correct from you guys?

This is the whole mass production vs made to order story.

You are correct they do make it to order hence the 6 weeks+ between order and deliver (I've read). I would complete expect for that time frame and it being custom not mass produced that they take it for a drive or few.

Stress testing a Ferrari on the track is not the same as what this guy was doing to the wheel. That would be the equivalent of doing a full lap at Fiorano in 1st gear the entire time.

I agree... but... regardless of his methodology is it not possible that it may not have uncovered that that the wheel is made of a compound that is too rubbery. After the initial "seal is broken" on the screws we figure out how much structural integrity the product we are using has. Yes he is using a tonne of force, but i think I would have rather had seen it flex for about 1 cm or so and then snap off. Not from it being so weak, but from it breaking when being abused in such a manner.

This flex, if in every wheel, may become an issue over time causing aggravation months later. If my wheel started feeling spring it would upset me because I went to great lengths in making my rig as rigid as possible. So much so that I can stand on any corner and it moves less than 1 mm with around 200 pounds of pressure on an extreme corner with me standing on 1 foot. The rig will never.... NEVER.... be used this way but it was the only way I could test to guarantee that nothing is going to move later. I completely understand that my test was ridiculous and never have come up in the real world, but it did help show me that my progress was in the right direction.

Now back to this review, if the wheel wouldn't have broken or flexed then what would we have thought of his process?

I personally would have tried flexing the wheel like that, but once I saw it move a little bit after, what I consider too much force, I would have said "this is acceptable" or "this is to weak".

Anyway hope you guys had a merry Christmas.

 

[AGP5000]

The review of the OP shows his personal preferences. Everybody has a different taste about things and it seems that he really wanted to have a better rim instead of great force feedback.
A product is always a compromise. Otherwise we would all drive 10.000 USD Bugattis (Estate wagon version for me, please).

If you wanted to get this kind of force feedback sensation you had to pay 1500 to 2500 USD up to know with less compatibility and features.

The price of the CSR E is certainly not super affordable but you have to put it in relation to something comparable to make clear what you can expect to get for the money you paid.

Our GT3 RS wheel is a full Alcantara rim and the wheel costs 180 USD. If the rim is more important for you than this is the wheel to get.

If you want to get a wheel where the value is actually rather under the hood than on the rim then the CSR E is probably a good choice. If you want to have a full metal rim with leather and the CNC machiened base of the CSR E you will have to spend more money to either upgrade the CSR E or wait for the ClubSport wheel.

You always get what you pay for and although 540 USD is quite some money you should put it in perspective to what other wheels deliver. We could have delivered the CSR E only with a more expensive rim made of metal and leather and raise the price. This just kills the option to get this wheel at a more affordable price for the many people who like the rim as it is and rather have spectacular force feedback effects.

I feel there might be a slight misconception here. I Think what Troy meant in the end of his post was this: Ok, so I spent $540 on this. It IS a great wheel. Has amazingly accurate and precise FFB. BUT @ $540 already, why not put a rim worthy on it and charge $6-650?

Thomas, if we are already willing to pay $500+ on the wheel, why not just charge 6-650 and put what the true sim racer wants on it. I am sure by the 500+ point, we would ALL likely be willing to pony up a little more to have the better rim already on that base. I think that is what Troy, and most others sentiments have been. It is not like they are disgruntled or unhappy, just slightly left in a state of what if?

I am sure likely most will buy the rims when they are released, so why wait to release instead of offering them at a slightly higher price now? I understand the XID comapt and all, but that is what most of us wanted by now. That is all. Nothing more, nothing less.

I for one am waiting for the CSW, but reallllllllllly contemplated the elite. I feel my decision was the right one, for now...... I race with Troy quite a bit. He is a good guy and great ambassador for what he did for the US while serving. His intent is good, just comes across skewed due to some heat of the moment and passion for sim racing.

 

[superbike81]

I think you are missing the point here.

Some sim racers might be willing to spend the $500+ on the wheel and will be perfectly happy with the stock wheel. Those who aren't happy with the wheel can spend an extra $150 and get a different wheel when they come out.

Win/Win. Lower price for people who like the CSR-E wheel rim, more quality (higher price) for the people who want a nicer wheel rim.

 

[AGP5000]

I think you are missing the point here.

Some sim racers might be willing to spend the $500+ on the wheel and will be perfectly happy with the stock wheel. Those who aren't happy with the wheel can spend an extra $150 and get a different wheel when they come out.

Win/Win. Lower price for people who like the CSR-E wheel rim, more quality (higher price) for the people who want a nicer wheel rim.

Valid point. I guess it is a case of misconceived expectations. And within 12 months, likely, there will be more Elite rims. I too thought the rim was eh, and yes, I tried one over the weekend.

And for the ones who say they don't feel the full effect of the road in the GT2, I have NO idea where that comes from. Maybe from xbox or PS3'ers. But on PC (iRacing), the GT2 is nothing short of spectacular. It's funny, I hit a curb wrong, it feels like the wheel wants to fly from its base. Ok, maybe some exaggeration, but, you get my point. I keep FFB and SHO @ 100 and make in game FFB adj for iRacing. Makes it feel almost dead on for a belt driven FFB system.

I also tried a FREX over the weekend. It is amazing, but for what you pay for the GT2 or ANY Fanatec, it's not like there is a 2-3k difference in feel. Precision, maybe (not with the Elite or CSW anymore though), but not feel, imho. I just prefer the bigger rim though.

 

[erahk64]

Thomas, if we are already willing to pay $500+ on the wheel, why not just charge 6-650 and put what the true sim racer wants on it. I am sure by the 500+ point, we would ALL likely be willing to pony up a little more to have the better rim already on that base.

I know guys who would not buy CSR Elite if it was more than $500.
But there should have been a higher quality rim available when CSR Elite was released to make it possible to upgrade it immediately for those who want that.
Hopefully other rims will be available soon.

 

[BCNR 33]

Ok in the other thread it is embedded

You should just read instead.

 

[Mr Latte]

People it's a "toy wheel" a pretty darn good one too.
Being a toy however it does not need to have the sturdyness of a real car or real rim. Just be strong enough and fit for its purpose err which it is.

The lengths some of you will goto are crazy...

 

[AGP5000]

I know guys who would not buy CSR Elite if it was more than $500.
But there should have been a higher quality rim available when CSR Elite was released to make it possible to upgrade it.

One thing I did not really take into note was the fact that Thomas stated that they made FFB more precise with a lesser rim. I am pretty sure he means the mass/weight/density of the rim for the effect of the FFB. That likely played a major role in the style and size due to the complaints of the GT2&3. Which again, I fail to see.

I race sprints and late models. Have been for 6+ years. The GT2 does a great job of emulation. I just need a true 350mm rim to get my feel of actually being in the car. The GT2 300mm rim is great. I have almost fully adjusted to it, but would still prefer the 350mm for a true feel for ME. Hence my wait for the CSW.

 

[thehawk05]

And for the ones who say they don't feel the full effect of the road in the GT2, I have NO idea where that comes from.

I think you're misinterpreting what they are trying to say. They're likely referring to the small subtle, imperfections in the road type of effects. The Porsche wheels don't transmit a lot of that stuff very well due to the mass of the wheel. Even the CSR is better than the Porsche wheels in that regard.

 

[Mr Latte]

Oh the CSW and BMW rim, dont you know that it will be likely criticised for being too heavy, it will be too real reducing the felt effects perhaps possibly mask the RUMBLE & FFB. Reducing the spinning speed because of its additional bulk/strength and weight.

People will still moan, trust me.

The benefits of the CSE Elite rim that nobody seems to of touched on is that in keeping it light weight has its own benefits in the FFB sensation, speed and the rumble effects. Particulary important for consoles with reduced FFB strength.

Very much likely reason why the CSR has been given improved reports of its FFB and rumble because of the new light rim. Also very much the reason why Thrustmaster made their T500RS with a lightweight plastic/rubber rim and again with a F1 rim too also similar quality.

End result is a stronger heavier or larger rim will alter how the wheel reacts,performs and feels.
Maybe yes the balance Fanatec can improve with future rims but do keep in mind all the factors.

 

[AGP5000]

I think you're misinterpreting what they are trying to say. They're likely referring to the small subtle, imperfections in the road type of effects. The Porsche wheels don't transmit a lot of that stuff very well due to the mass of the wheel. Even the CSR is better than the Porsche wheels in that regard.

This can go for the consoles, but for iRacing, I 100% disagree. I have a LOT of on track experience, both dirt and asphalt. If others DO, and still hold that opinion, I would like to hear from them. I fell literally everything other than the G-Force's themselves with the GT2 on iRacing. Yes, the consoles lack, but not PC sims. Again, granted all my opinion here. But, I do race cars on a track. I think most, if not all on here do not.

EDIT: Latte, I agree. I do need to keep ALL factors open. I thought about what a 350mm heavier rim would do. Do not get me wrong. Again, these are ALL MY OPINION. I'll be the first to admit, I am outspoken at times. But, for being 25 and making what I do already, safe to say, trusting my gut has and is a very good thing so far.

 

[VWMasteR]

@Latte

Yeah I'm really curious on how much the larger heavier rims will affect the speed of the wheel and strength of the force feedback.

 

[AGP5000]

@Latte

Yeah I'm really curious on how much the larger heavier rims will affect the speed of the wheel and strength of the force feedback.

I see a few modders with the G27 putting a 350mm Momo rim on it quite often. Do they do anything internal to deal with that, or?.......... Seems like most have little to no issues with it. Maybe in time it wears more significantly than the stock rim? Or does the Mod @ point of connection take care of that?

Anyone have any insight? I am curios. I have been pondering modding the GT2 to a QR system.

 

[BCNR 33]

You always get what you pay for and although 540 USD is quite some money you should put it in perspective to what other wheels deliver. We could have delivered the CSR E only with a more expensive rim made of metal and leather and raise the price. This just kills the option to get this wheel at a more affordable price for the many people who like the rim as it is and rather have spectacular force feedback effects.

How about great FFB and a rim without seams and cheap feel? Are you also saying the replacement higher quality wheel rims will deaden the wheel and reduce FFB effects? You post says that the plastic/rubber rim has spectacular FFB and implies that a sturdier and heavier metal rim will reduce FFB effects? How much more would it be to have a nicer rim?

Your communications are confusing because you are mixing your own personal opinion with product propaganda.

I know this is your product that your team developed but lose the arrogant attitude. You have the only product in this niche, it's the best Xbox wheel because your products are the only options. If you as CEO of your company are going to directly interact with consumers, you should be well aware that people aren't always going to give you praise. People say it's better than the T500, but it should as by the time you have pedals and shifter you have spent over $700 USD. I know people on this site like to tout the $540 price but that doesn't get you a complete set-up and is pure marketing. The T500 has a better rim and is cheaper.

I want one of these CSRE wheels. I really do. I understand that there were design compromises to keep the price down. So when is there going to be a better rim? IMO the best FFB in the world doesn't mean much if the wheel rim feels like a toy.

Which reminds me of Logiforce's opinion. What's wrong with an idiot proof rim? I want a rim I can grab. I'm going to let other people play this thing too and I want it so they don't break it when they grab it. I'm not an idiot, but I might let an idiot try using it like my idiot nephews. I think this is more than reasonable expectation for something that costs over $700.

Maybe the OP is deforming it in a way that isn't natural, but no real steering wheel will do that and most modern wheels ARE made to deform in an accident.

 

[sandboxgod]

Okay the only main issue I have is this part in his review:

Step 2 back: The rim construction.
This is a major step back. It seems like the rim was just an afterthought when you look at the quality of the other components. It must be very thin plastic because there is major flex in the entire upper half of the rim. I made a short video to show the flex. I was not pushing hard on the wheel at all. Here is a link to the video:

This part is clearly not the case right? Did we agree that it is not easy to flex this rim? If that's the case, then why is he claiming it is easy to flex the rim? Like I said before, I have already become firmly attached to this wheel. So I'd rather ask some of the others for their opinions.

edit: Of course, I can just let the whole thing go altogether. I think we have already established some people are not happy with this rim and feel it is toy-like. But we all have already known many months ago if you want the very best rims for the time being you will want the godlike CSW (BMW or Formula rim)

 

[VWMasteR]

@BCNR 33

You have some good points that get kind of buried in you're tone. I didn't find Fanatec...'s post arrogant at all. Logiforce also isn't wrong either. We are paying for a wheel to be used in a game, in a niche market. This isn't a wheel that has been designed for safety and uses other than steering (like getting in and out of a rig, or adjusting your seat). Again, I still see some method in Troysloths process, that I can get behind. I think without being on the team that designed it, we don't know what testing did and didn't go in to the product and why decisions landed in favour of this or that.

In the end I think the cost of the wheel was for the base. I believe this is where cost was spared as the option for a more robust rim was going to be offered to those that cared. I don't think it's possible to please everyone at all.... If you put a Frex or ECCI in front of the exact same people they would say "Yeah I can feel it's stronger, but I don't think it's worth the money".

This is something that I think will be a touchy issue for a long time, until maybe a few things happen (rim availability / new rims / new FW... whatever).