"Daily" Race Discussion [Archive]

[Tea_Leaves]

St.-Croix B is a pleasure to drive!

First race at St. Croix in a long time. So refreshing. I can imagine new people saying: "Hey, nobody told me about this new track!" and "Wait, this was in the game?"

Hard to believe it was only used once before. I hope to see it more often since there's several layouts. In before another 14 months until it appears again.

 

[6BK]

Yeh, that's the corner that cost me P4 last night. The M4 does a fairly reasonable job but that corner needs patience. Other cars in GT lounge I've been able to take it 2 gears higher than recommended, but I had to drop to 3rd .

& @05XR8 You 2 talking about coming over the bridge, tight left and then the right hander with the blue and white padding on the left going down the hill? I'll test the Atenza later. I can do it in 4th with most cars tested but found 3rd was more consistent and offered a lot more control. In 4th I was likely to drift wide and if I had to accommodate going too far out I ended up with less acceleration on exit. While I have not raced I felt on testing that 3rd was a better gear to defend in (slow in - fast out). OK, I still need loads of practice on this circuit but think in a race I'd personally opt for the reassurance of 3rd than the risk of 4th.

 

[Famine]

And what about the GT-R LM Nismo? I wonder why people say it's so bad in GTS when it doesn't have to deal with the real-life drivetrain issues that it had?

Because it was bad in reality too. It qualified 20 seconds behind the 919, and one of the cars was actually out qualified by an LMP2 car. It's slooooooooow.

But wasn’t that just because of a mechanical issue with the drivetrain? Why would a car in GT have the same mechanical issues? Shouldn’t the GT-R LM Nismo be performing as Nissan intended when it comes to its portrayal in GTS?

Why should the car have magic powers in GTS that didn't exist in reality?

In all testing, qualifying and the race the Nissan was the slowest LMP1 by a huge margin. If by "mechanical issues" you mean a fundamentally flawed design with half baked execution, then yes.

The car only ever raced at Le Mans and only once. Two of the cars retired, one crossed the line. The one that did cross the line not classified as it had sat in the pits so long it didn't complete the required distance to be classified.

Why should GT rewrite history by making the car compete with the Audis, Porsche, Toyotas etc.

You guys are missing a pretty major fact: the car in GT Sport actually does have magic powers that didn't exist in reality.

When it actually raced, the GT-R LM NISMO had no hybrid system. That's pretty much because the original hybrid system as designed by a third-party was reportedly snake oil (it still doesn't exist) and the backup system Nissan planned to replace it broke everything every time it ran it, so Nissan disabled the system altogether and ran as a pure ICE car - but without the power available to either the LMP1-H or LMP1 cars it was obviously slower.

The original "Flybrid" system from Torotrak recovered power from the front wheels and stored it in flywheels. About a quarter of the total electrical power - 750hp, so around 185hp - went to the front wheels. The rest went to the rear wheels via a pretty mad portal axle layout. That essentially gave the car nearly 800hp at the front and 550hp at the back, out of corners.

When it became apparent that this system would never materialise, Nissan postponed the car's race debut and reclassed it from 8MJ to 2MJ, replacing the 4WD hybrid system with a battery FWD hybrid. That system destroyed every gearbox Nissan showed it to - although the GT-R LM NISMO's gearbox was a bit complicated so, no huge shock. When it came to Le Mans, Nissan ran the car without it.

The car in GT Sport has a functional hybrid system, which the real car never raced with. I think we agreed last time this came up was the 2MJ version, which the car did at one point actually use in testing but never made it to a race, not the 8MJ version which also would have driven the rear wheels if it ever actually existed.


Notably, the GT-R LM NISMO was actually as fast in the speed traps as the top LMP1-H 8MJ cars, because far from being a "half-baked" design, the principle (based on those huge air tunnels either side of the cockpit, only possible because the car was front-engined) actually worked. It's just the car never had the power of the others because of a hybrid system Nissan was sold that didn't exist and a much weaker, rapidly cobbled-together replacement that destroyed gearboxes, and it lost seconds in every corner exit while it fought up to speed.

 

[6BK]

You guys are missing a pretty major fact: the car in GT Sport actually does have magic powers that didn't exist in reality.

When it actually raced, the GT-R LM NISMO had no hybrid system. That's pretty much because the original hybrid system as designed by a third-party was reportedly snake oil (it still doesn't exist) and the backup system Nissan planned to replace it broke everything every time it ran it, so Nissan disabled the system altogether and ran as a pure ICE car - but without the power available to either the LMP1-H or LMP1 cars it was obviously slower.

The original "Flybrid" system from Torotrak recovered power from the front wheels and stored it in flywheels. About a quarter of the total electrical power - 750hp, so around 185hp - went to the front wheels. The rest went to the rear wheels via a pretty mad portal axle layout. That essentially gave the car nearly 800hp at the front and 550hp at the back, out of corners.

When it became apparent that this system would never materialise, Nissan postponed the car's race debut and reclassed it from 8MJ to 2MJ, replacing the 4WD hybrid system with a battery FWD hybrid. That system destroyed every gearbox Nissan showed it to - although the GT-R LM NISMO's gearbox was a bit complicated so, no huge shock. When it came to Le Mans, Nissan ran the car without it.

The car in GT Sport has a functional hybrid system, which the real car never raced with. I think we agreed last time this came up was the 2MJ version, which the car did at one point actually use in testing but never made it to a race, not the 8MJ version which also would have driven the rear wheels if it ever actually existed.


Notably, the GT-R LM NISMO was actually as fast in the speed traps as the top LMP1-H 8MJ cars, because far from being a "half-baked" design, the principle (based on those huge air tunnels either side of the cockpit, only possible because the car was front-engined) actually worked. It's just the car never had the power of the others because of a hybrid system Nissan was sold that didn't exist and a much weaker, rapidly cobbled-together replacement that destroyed gearboxes, and it lost seconds in every corner exit while it fought up to speed.

I have absolutely no idea if any of that is remotely true but it makes for great reading.

Move along now!

 

[Invisigoth]

There's your problem. You were using a Gr.4 in a Gr.3 race.

I couldn't decide if I wanted to use the M3 or the M6, so I took the middle ground . I was editing the post when you quoted me .

& @05XR8 You 2 taking about coming over the bridge, tight left and then the right hander with the blue and white padding on the left going down the hill?

Yeh. I clipped the blue and white on the final lap. Not recommended 👎. I think it all depends on the car and how much punch out of the corner you can get out of a lower gear as opposed to carrying speed with the higher gear. It's a race B so fuel conservation is less of an issue.

 

[6BK]

I couldn't decide if I wanted to use the M3 or the M6, so I took the middle ground . I was editing the post when you quoted me .



Yeh. I clipped the blue and white on the final lap. Not recommended 👎. I think it all depends on the car and how much punch out of the corner you can get out of a lower gear as opposed to carrying speed with the higher gear. It's a race B so fuel conservation is less of an issue.

True, thought I stress that I have not raced it yet the issue I imagined was that to hold 4th you've got to ease off the gas a little and feather it around the bend because flat out in 4th puts you in the wall. Every race I've ever been in if I try to ease off and take the corner with any sort of realistic "feathering" the idiot behind is bumping me off the course for going too slow. My race style has thus developed to be a "fast-in-slow-out" --- race up to the bend, slam on the anchors and get in their way on the other side (unfortunately) in order to defend against dive bombing and shunts.

 

[Illum_Concept]

After the shambles I was at St Croix practicing in a lobby at the weekend (sorry to everyone I held up / clattered into), I've somehow managed to achieve a qualy time in the high 2:08s. Optimal is half a second quicker, but that bump on the right hander coming onto the bridge is killing me!

It does mean I've spent plenty of time admiring the beautiful chateau on the edge of the lake, as my car pirouettes gracelessly up the road. I think I would like to live there. Its all real, right? PD wouldn't lie to us would they?

 

[Lilium]

Gr 1 hybrids sucks out the fun of racing, since with softs and the hybrid system, any time out of ideal line can be quickly mitigated by the hybrid boost.

I think I'll go for race B this week

 

[Famine]

I have absolutely no idea if any of that is remotely true but it makes for great reading.

Well, aside from the fact it's electrical rather than magical (and simulated electrical at that), all of it.

Aside from it being my job, at my old job (which was the same job at a different company) I used to share a house with someone who was in charge of Nissan's PR, post-Cox, around the time of the car's cancellation.

 

[viper al]

I've done lobby races with friends at Sainte-Croix-b ,but never focused too much on braking points,apexes etc.Different story now.Once I figure out the entry and exit of the Confounded Bridge I should be in the 208's(I'm at 209.118 with the Peugeot VGT)

 

[250Cal]

You guys are missing a pretty major fact: the car in GT Sport actually does have magic powers that didn't exist in reality.

When it actually raced, the GT-R LM NISMO had no hybrid system. That's pretty much because the original hybrid system as designed by a third-party was reportedly snake oil (it still doesn't exist) and the backup system Nissan planned to replace it broke everything every time it ran it, so Nissan disabled the system altogether and ran as a pure ICE car - but without the power available to either the LMP1-H or LMP1 cars it was obviously slower.

The original "Flybrid" system from Torotrak recovered power from the front wheels and stored it in flywheels. About a quarter of the total electrical power - 750hp, so around 185hp - went to the front wheels. The rest went to the rear wheels via a pretty mad portal axle layout. That essentially gave the car nearly 800hp at the front and 550hp at the back, out of corners.

When it became apparent that this system would never materialise, Nissan postponed the car's race debut and reclassed it from 8MJ to 2MJ, replacing the 4WD hybrid system with a battery FWD hybrid. That system destroyed every gearbox Nissan showed it to - although the GT-R LM NISMO's gearbox was a bit complicated so, no huge shock. When it came to Le Mans, Nissan ran the car without it.

The car in GT Sport has a functional hybrid system, which the real car never raced with. I think we agreed last time this came up was the 2MJ version, which the car did at one point actually use in testing but never made it to a race, not the 8MJ version which also would have driven the rear wheels if it ever actually existed.


Notably, the GT-R LM NISMO was actually as fast in the speed traps as the top LMP1-H 8MJ cars, because far from being a "half-baked" design, the principle (based on those huge air tunnels either side of the cockpit, only possible because the car was front-engined) actually worked. It's just the car never had the power of the others because of a hybrid system Nissan was sold that didn't exist and a much weaker, rapidly cobbled-together replacement that destroyed gearboxes, and it lost seconds in every corner exit while it fought up to speed.

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/cars/nissan-gt-r-lm-nismo/

 

[Invisigoth]

True, thought I stress that I have not raced it yet the issue I imagined was that to hold 4th you've got to ease off the gas a little and feather it around the bend because flat out in 4th puts you in the wall.

That's pretty much it. I'm the opposite to you, slow in fast out is my preference.

Sadly my race on the Vampire was a disaster. I qualified more than 2s faster than yesterday, but started in P12 instead of P8. There were more DR/Cs and some B's in this race, which didn't help.

I started off ok, till we got to the corner after the bridge. Get to my braking point, brake and changed down to 2nd, the engine revved it's nuts off, the brakes were non-existent and the steering might as well have been welded in the strait ahead position. I slammed face first into the Armco at the maximum speed I could muster from the start of the bridge to the end of the bridge. 5s penalty for coming to a complete stop. It did it again at another corner. The brakes completely failed and one of the indicators, no idea what symbol it was or what it meant was flashing away in the process. ABS? TCS? no idea but it was like the throttle was stuck open... I think I finished last or second last by 17s...was 25s at one stage.

<sigh> No SR drop but DR took a 900pt hit . Think I'll give the Supra another go tomorrow, the faults just weren't fair to it. Another day yada yada .....

 

[GT5Power]

Gr 1 hybrids sucks out the fun of racing, since with softs and the hybrid system, any time out of ideal line can be quickly mitigated by the hybrid boost.

I think I'll go for race B this week

I would argue that this makes the race more interesting, because if you had to follow one racing line all the time, you'd be caught in the dirty air of the car in front. It's better to be able to take a slightly different line while losing less time than usual thanks to the boost.

I finally got internet of my own at my new house today, so I celebrated it with a lights-to-flag W in race C Surprisingly for this time of day, 62002 DR was only enough for door number #3 The guy who started 2nd got caught out by my dirty air and messed up his line into turn 2, getting a penalty in the process, then lost control on the T4 exit and span out. After that, it was a matter of putting in fast, consistent laps and building up a gap to P2, which became 7s at the finish. I ran a 24.2 on lap 9 to take the fastest lap. Unfortunately I didn't get a CRB, because I scraped the wall while entering the pitlane

 

[Famine]

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/cars/nissan-gt-r-lm-nismo/

Yep, says the same thing but in less detail - for example, no mention of the intermediate state where the car had a 2MJ battery hybrid FWD system until that destroyed the gearboxes.


Also reinforces the fact that the real car had no hybrid system when it raced, and the GT Sport car does - which is an in-game improvement over the real thing, like what I said.

 

[250Cal]

Yep, says the same thing but in less detail - for example, no mention of the intermediate state where the car had a 2MJ battery hybrid FWD system until that destroyed the gearboxes.


Also reinforces the fact that the real car had no hybrid system when it raced, and the GT Sport car does - which is an in-game improvement over the real thing, like what I said.

It also says the car had a poor suspension system, poor integration of the hybrid system (with a redesign required to adhere to the ACO's rules) and various other fundamental issues (as well as the ACO being their usual pissy selves with rules such as wing mirror positions). A radical design is one thing but on paper potential needs to be realised in the very harsh environment that is competitive motorsport. Some of the theory was admirable but they were nowhere near the levels required to take on Audi/Porsche/Toyota.

Talk about a knife at a gunfight.

I think people underestimate the huge volume of work and resources those powerhouses commit to endurance racing and specifically Le Mans. And even that isn't a guarantee - such as failing within sight of the finish. See also; Toyota's F1 efforts.

 

[Famine]

It also says the car had a poor suspension system

Indeed, but that's pretty much standard for a car in its first season of endurance racing - the 919 retired with a broken ARB in its first Le Mans in 2014. They always aim for the lightest parts possible to survive the race, and commonly they fail. Nissan didn't do any racing at all until Le Mans, so it's even less of a surprise that the car had other mechanical problems at Le Mans.

poor integration of the hybrid system (with a redesign required to adhere to the ACO's rules)

Which, as I covered, is a gross understatement. The original (third party) hybrid system didn't even exist...

... and the car never ran with a hybrid system at Le Mans, but does in GT Sport (and GT6), to re-emphasise the point that the GT Sport version has abilities the real car didn't.

A radical design is one thing but on paper potential needs to be realised in the very harsh environment that is competitive motorsport. Some of the theory was admirable but they were nowhere near the levels required to take on Audi/Porsche/Toyota.

The car was essentially based on two quite unusual ideas. One worked incredibly well (the car was barely slower in the speed traps) but had a flaw which the other idea was supposed to compensate for (corner exit acceleration). That second idea - which Nissan bought from an external supplier - didn't even exist, and still doesn't. And the supplier no longer exists either.

Without that idea filling in the gaps created by the first idea, the car was doomed. The last-minute compromise to get the car running semi-competitively - the battery hybrid system driving the front-wheels - destroyed the car's gearboxes, and Nissan abandoned it... but it's still a part of the car in GT Sport, where it won't destroy any gearboxes.

 

[250Cal]

Indeed, but that's pretty much standard for a car in its first season of endurance racing. They always aim for the lightest parts possible to survive the race, and commonly they fail. Nissan didn't do any racing at all until Le Mans, so it's even less of a surprise that the car had other mechanical problems at Le Mans.

Which, as I covered, is a gross understatement. The original (third party) hybrid system didn't even exist...

... and the car never ran with a hybrid system at Le Mans, but does in GT Sport (and GT6), to re-emphasise the point that the GT Sport version has abilities the real car didn't.

The car was essentially based on two quite unusual ideas. One worked incredibly well (the car was barely slower in the speed traps) but had a flaw which the other idea was supposed to compensate for (corner exit acceleration). That second idea - which Nissan bought from an external supplier - didn't even exist, and still doesn't. And the supplier no longer exists either.

Without that idea filling in the gaps created by the first idea, the car was doomed. The last-minute compromise to get the car running semi-competitively - the battery hybrid system driving the front-wheels - destroyed the car's gearboxes, and Nissan abandoned it... but it's still a part of the car in GT Sport, where it won't destroy any gearboxes.

Right, so the car was cack. And it's a bit less cack in the game.

 

[DanSHW]

Don't really know Sardegna or St. Croix, but I'm not that fussed about DR, so using just missed race A entry, went with B, and fitted in 3 quali laps, for a 2:14.3, and was amazed when that got me 6th on a full C/S grid, and even more surprised when a couple of guys crashed out and I was up to 4th by the end of lap 1. Had a bit of back and forth with a Ferrari, and despite being behind into the last corner, managed to out drag him to the line to take 4th.

Did another couple of quali laps and took another half second off, and straight into another race, 6th on the grid again. Lost a place at the start giving a dive bomber space and hoping they threw themselves off, they didn't, but I stuck close to the front pack for what was a clean first lap. All kicked off at the turn onto the bridge on lap 2, the two cars in front got very sideways on the way in, so I backed off and promptly got punted, just about held it in the run off area, but the two in front had both spun, and no one came past, so I moved up to 5th, and stayed there with big gaps in front and behind for the rest of the race.

Turns out I'm not that bad at St. Croix, or maybe it's just that everyone's awful?

 

[Famine]

Right, so the car was cack.

So cack - but not because of the design. The pace at the end of the straights showed that the fundamental design philosophy worked, and had the 8MJ Flybrid system actually existed to fill in the gaps it might have been closer... or we might have seen the cars getting further before something else failed. We might have seen a second race from it at least.

But the system didn't exist, and without that it was never going to be competitive - not least because the car had less than half the power it was designed to have.

And it's a bit less cack in the game.

Yep. PD has done a mild history rewrite and presented the 2MJ battery electric hybrid version of the car in functional, running form (which, to be fair, did run, just not for long and never in a race), not the petrol-only clunker that raced.

 

[golfer07840]

Gr.B cars have been used in Daily Races eons ago (before weekly races) and even back then, dirt tracks weren't used. The only Gr.B race I remember was at Willow Springs. Last time I tried racing a rally car on a dirt track, it was like ice skating so I wouldn't enjoy them very much. If I wanted rally events, I'd just buy a dedicated rally game. Can you also imagine what it would be like with the Penalty System. Scary thought.

In other words, it's very unlikely we'll see rally events in Daily Races.

I recall a one-make race with the Subaru WRX GR B car at Tsukuba awhile back. I want to say it may have been prior to the dailies becoming weeklies.

BTW, Kudos to PD this week. These races are fantastic. All 3 of them. I am pleasantly surprised at how fast Race A is. Usually, Race A feels like it's in slow motion, but this is a great car/track combo. Race B - wide open and just a fun drive in GR 3 cars. Race C - interesting that you need to use your brakes more to recharge the Hybrid.

 

[JoeyLeonine]

If I could locate the apexes at St Croissant I'd be dangerous I tell you.

12.5xx in the GTbaRge.

Hadn't driven it for ages as I just couldn't get it to rotate through slow corners, but it seems to work with the flow of this one...

 

[Invisigoth]

Move along now!

Yes! LETS!!! Some people need to learn the meaning of the phrase "flogging a dead horse"

 

[Redsea666]

A pair of Race Cs last night crushed DR and SR for me. Both of them started great, but taking a series of punts in both threw me off and I finished last or second to last each time. I might come back after people get to know the track better because I'm really in the groove of Fuji in the TS050. I do love races that require a pit.

Tonight I'll go back to St. Croix, but I haven't chosen the war wagon for it yet. I was loving the Aston but it seems I can't keep the tail in there. Maybe the Ford GT? I dunno. There will be laps tonight. It is a fun, fun track though. PD really nailed a lot of the custom tracks this platform.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

I really enjoy St. Croix, never raced it before but it's a great track with both technical parts, high speed straights and plenty of overtake opportunity.
Unfortunately the one race yesterday where I was being shoved around dropped me into SR B. A place I haven't been since the very start of my GTS career. And it's a rough neighborhood...

 

[05XR8]

& @05XR8 You 2 talking about coming over the bridge, tight left and then the right hander with the blue and white padding on the left going down the hill? I'll test the Atenza later. I can do it in 4th with most cars tested but found 3rd was more consistent and offered a lot more control. In 4th I was likely to drift wide and if I had to accommodate going too far out I ended up with less acceleration on exit. While I have not raced I felt on testing that 3rd was a better gear to defend in (slow in - fast out). OK, I still need loads of practice on this circuit but think in a race I'd personally opt for the reassurance of 3rd than the risk of 4th.

I tried the Ford GT, Supra, Atenza, Jaguar in Race and the RC F in a Qualy run.

Observing the Atenza and Supra have good punch out of that corner holding 4th gear. On exit, when I could apply 100% throttle, I was at about 170kmh accelerating faster than using 3rd in the Jag & GT.

However, it's mainly due to whatever downforce/suspension physics programmed in the Atemnza. It does benefit from having 600+hp BoP, but it sticks through corners way better than the other cars.

After the right hand kink in the straight, we all brake hard for the 90 degree right. The next sequence of corners, I can pull away from anything behind me. Even in the dirty air from the car ahead, I've closed the gap.

The esses, with its right/left-zero-gravity-all-the-weight-of-the-earth-full-suspension compression-up again-left- with the close to the wall exit, I can carry so much more speed.

 

[Db1312]

Is race c on fuji a race where you have to use both types of tyres, like in the series racing?

 

[ASH32]

Is race c on fuji a race where you have to use both types of tyres, like in the series racing?

No, start on softs and fit softs again when you pit, usually the half way point (lap7).

 

[stpatty]

I love St. Croix. I love the GT-R. 2:08.7 with .3 on the optimal. My DR is the highest it's ever been (35007). I raced against David Perel last night and gained a position in that race (they had a wobble coming out of the bridge and I ploughed them out of the way because I had nowhere else to go). What a drive.

 

[sturk0167]

@Granadier, I'll be coming for you.

#280 02:10.127 xGranadier
#289 02:10.148 RPMcMurphy01

I tried my first couple of laps at St. Croix with the M/T. I can definitely see where it will help in some places. I'm really clumsy with the manual transmission at this point, because I use it so rarely (usually just at race A with 4 or 5 speed cars). I either think too much about the shifting and blow my braking and turn-in points, or concentrate too much on braking and steering, and then forget to shift or shift too much.
I'll have to just do a lot more laps, until I can shift without thinking about it.

Nice lap. 👍

 

[stpatty]

@Granadier, I'll be coming for you.

#280 02:10.127 xGranadier
#289 02:10.148 RPMcMurphy01

I tried my first couple of laps at St. Croix with the M/T. I can definitely see where it will help in some places. I'm really clumsy with the manual transmission at this point, because I use it so rarely (usually just at race A with 4 or 5 speed cars). I either think too much about the shifting and blow my braking and turn-in points, or concentrate too much on braking and steering, and then forget to shift or shift too much.
I'll have to just do a lot more laps, until I can shift without thinking about it.

Nice lap. 👍

In the GT-R at least I'd say MT is a must. The left-hander after the bridge, the right hander after the back straight and the final corner all need you to slip down an extra gear to turn the car then shift up immediately as you accelerate out of it. Plus on the back straight you can generally hold the car right at the limit before shifting into 6th.