"Daily" Race Discussion [Archive]

[Groundfish]

Don’t try to move the goal posts!

I’m not. I’m just being honest. You give and have given so much to the community.

As for the Kart race,(and this is cute that you managed bring up the only time I’ve ever seen you in top split, and try to throw it in there that I spun out in that race. Nice try BTW. ) I

I’m just being honest. You entered 3 times and spun all 3. I honestly was and still do root for you. I enjoy watching the races you share and replays etc.
I’m just saying 99 percent of people are not in your position speed wise time in wise etc. For some of them maybe a little tcs won’t hurt, maybe not.
At any rate let’s not get contentious. Your point is no tcs is ultimate speed and time possible. And I agreed.
And that’s mostly all that matters.
My point is different that’s all. Statistically not everyone is the .5 percent top. That’s a fact. I’m just saying maybe for average Joe he MIGHT have more fun just using TCS that’s it. Honestly I never once disagreed with your point that in order to max everything speed wise no tcs is best.
I think we’re just making differing points and we are both stubborn that’s all.
I just think for myself and many others who aren’t chasing the upper crust of the game maybe were sometimes better served not to be too proud to use a system that’s in the game that can help.

 

[Barra333]

I use X and square so inputs are harsh, I use TC2 to race and for qualy I fiddle with TC all lap. So at LM, TC2 for sector 1 then TC0 rest of lap for example. I try to delve into TC1 for races but the small time gain is pointless if I turn it around on a kerb, I am slower anyway as I am tentative vs 100pc confident on TC2.

Is there a reason that you don't use the triggers and left stick?

 

[crusselz]

Is there a reason that you don't use the triggers and left stick?

Was about to ask the same. Guess what works for one, may not work for everyone.
@GOTMAXPOWER what do you use?
Using the triggers and left stick to steer, right stick for gears.

Don't see myself venturing out this week. Not combos that I enjoy.

 

[Pigems]

I’m not. I’m just being honest. You give and have given so much to the community.



I’m just being honest. You entered 3 times and spun all 3. I honestly was and still do root for you. I enjoy watching the races you share and replays etc.
I’m just saying 99 percent of people are not in your position speed wise time in wise etc. For some of them maybe a little tcs won’t hurt, maybe not.
At any rate let’s not get contentious. Your point is no tcs is ultimate speed and time possible. And I agreed.
And that’s mostly all that matters.
My point is different that’s all. Statistically not everyone is the .5 percent top. That’s a fact. I’m just saying maybe for average Joe he MIGHT have more fun just using TCS that’s it. Honestly I never once disagreed with your point that in order to max everything speed wise no tcs is best.
I think we’re just making differing points and we are both stubborn that’s all.
I just think for myself and many others who aren’t chasing the upper crust of the game maybe were sometimes better served not to be too proud to use a system that’s in the game that can help.

Do you even read my posts before replying? I have said it twice now, and this will be the third time. IF one can make it though whole races without spins, AND that persons goal is to continue improving, NO TCS is the way to go.

Anyone else who doesn’t meet that particular criteria, should continue using TCS and ignore this info. I’m only speaking to the people who have both the time and will, to continue getting better.

 

[Barra333]

Was about to ask the same. Guess what works for one, may not work for everyone.
@GOTMAXPOWER what do you use?
Using the triggers and left stick to steer, right stick for gears.

I use triggers to go/stop, left stick to steer and X/[] for gears.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Was about to ask the same. Guess what works for one, may not work for everyone.
@GOTMAXPOWER what do you use?
Using the triggers and left stick to steer, right stick for gears.

Don't see myself venturing out this week. Not combos that I enjoy.

I use L2/R2 for Brake/Accelerate, left stick for steering, square for gear up and X for down (IIRC the default is the opposite way round).

I thought this week's races looked a bit naff but playing with the rammers in A is pretty fun.

 

[O604]

So I know a guy on here who bought a wheel. But he keeps using the controller. I kept insisting he switch, he'd be faster, more comfortable, etc.... To me it make no sense. Wheel over controller, no question. What's wrong with him?

But it makes no difference what I think. GT is full of quirky people. Actually, I've found almost everyone on GT has weird quirks. Except me. I'm the only normal one here.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, Now, the world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, may not be right for some...... It takes, Diff'rent Strokes to move the world.

 

[Winnie847]

I'm not really sure what exact points are being argued in this TCS debate....but it sounds like a debate I've seen and been a part of before. So I'll give my two cents again:

Can you be fast with TCS on? Absolutely....I reached 65k DR using TCS2 back before I learned how to drive without it.

At that time, I was faster with TCS, but only because it prevented me from spinning, which would almost always happen in Gr.3 and even sometimes in Gr.4 cars.

Even if you are fast with TCS on, you are not going as fast as you possibly could with it off...assuming you've taken the time to learn to drive properly without it.

Some people who don't use TCS, probably should. What's better, spinning once in a race costing you 5-10 seconds, or using TCS and never spinning out? Or, even if you don't spin out, if you can't control the rear of the car when exiting tight corners, you're losing momentum and time, not to mention scorching your tires.

If you have some kind of weird opinion about TCS not being "real racing" or you just think you're too cool to use it even though you can't maintain lines through corners and exits....that's probably just your ego talking and you might be one of the people who should be using it.

So yes, you can be very quick using TCS, but there will always be potential to be quicker by turning it off. Even if you get your lines and steering perfect, TCS still engages during upshifts and loses you time for basically no reason. Even when you floor it in a straight line, TCS will kick in to prevent wheelspin, but with TCS off the car would have most likely still accelerated faster even taking the wheelspin into consideration. The problem is that TCS will kick in when wheelspin is detected even if you have partial traction there. When TCS kicks in, it's basically the same as lifting, so even though it's preventing wheelspin it's also reducing RPM's so the time you've saved by not spinning your wheels you're losing again by being further down the rev-bar, thus taking longer to reach the next gear and optimal speed before the next corner.

So in summary, TCS is slowing you down in small increments throughout the entire lap. If you can't control the throttle and the car well enough to avoid a spin or several near-spins, then TCS is the way to go and those small incremental losses aren't much compared to the time you'd lose by spinning. But if you can control the car well enough to not spin and maintain good lines while not letting the rear get away from you, then you're better off turning it off and gaining those several tenths per lap.

Also, TCS2 or nothing at all. No point in using anything higher than 2, and TCS1 doesn't prevent you from spinning so why have it on?

Thus concludes my novel on TCS

 

[NevilleNobody]

Is there a reason that you don't use the triggers and left stick?

Time is my enemy, it is SO engrained in my muscle memory that I will need, at estimate, 100 hrs or so to adapt and I just do not have the time, i only play 90 mins 4 X week. I have tried and it is like using your left hand to feed the chickens, always feels like someone else is doing it.

Pigems I tried a wheel and I think my real world experience hurt me. I have a little track time under my belt and the wheel and pedals i was using were just abysmal, ZERO feel, pedals especially, i had NO IDEA where they were travel wise. SO I bailed on that after 50 hours practice, i was just getting nowhere.

 

[roamingbard13]

I'm not really sure what exact points are being argued in this TCS debate....but it sounds like a debate I've seen and been a part of before. So I'll give my two cents again:

Can you be fast with TCS on? Absolutely....I reached 65k DR using TCS2 back before I learned how to drive without it.

At that time, I was faster with TCS, but only because it prevented me from spinning, which would almost always happen in Gr.3 and even sometimes in Gr.4 cars.

Even if you are fast with TCS on, you are not going as fast as you possibly could with it off...assuming you've taken the time to learn to drive properly without it.

Some people who don't use TCS, probably should. What's better, spinning once in a race costing you 5-10 seconds, or using TCS and never spinning out? Or, even if you don't spin out, if you can't control the rear of the car when exiting tight corners, you're losing momentum and time, not to mention scorching your tires.

If you have some kind of weird opinion about TCS not being "real racing" or you just think you're too cool to use it even though you can't maintain lines through corners and exits....that's probably just your ego talking and you might be one of the people who should be using it.

So yes, you can be very quick using TCS, but there will always be potential to be quicker by turning it off. Even if you get your lines and steering perfect, TCS still engages during upshifts and loses you time for basically no reason. Even when you floor it in a straight line, TCS will kick in to prevent wheelspin, but with TCS off the car would have most likely still accelerated faster even taking the wheelspin into consideration. The problem is that TCS will kick in when wheelspin is detected even if you have partial traction there. When TCS kicks in, it's basically the same as lifting, so even though it's preventing wheelspin it's also reducing RPM's so the time you've saved by not spinning your wheels you're losing again by being further down the rev-bar, thus taking longer to reach the next gear and optimal speed before the next corner.

So in summary, TCS is slowing you down in small increments throughout the entire lap. If you can't control the throttle and the car well enough to avoid a spin or several near-spins, then TCS is the way to go and those small incremental losses aren't much compared to the time you'd lose by spinning. But if you can control the car well enough to not spin and maintain good lines while not letting the rear get away from you, then you're better off turning it off and gaining those several tenths per lap.

Also, TCS2 or nothing at all. No point in using anything higher than 2, and TCS1 doesn't prevent you from spinning so why have it on?

Thus concludes my novel on TCS

You should save it in a google doc for next time

 

[crusselz]

I'm not really sure what exact points are being argued in this TCS debate....but it sounds like a debate I've seen and been a part of before. So I'll give my two cents again:

Can you be fast with TCS on? Absolutely....I reached 65k DR using TCS2 back before I learned how to drive without it.

At that time, I was faster with TCS, but only because it prevented me from spinning, which would almost always happen in Gr.3 and even sometimes in Gr.4 cars.

Even if you are fast with TCS on, you are not going as fast as you possibly could with it off...assuming you've taken the time to learn to drive properly without it.

Some people who don't use TCS, probably should. What's better, spinning once in a race costing you 5-10 seconds, or using TCS and never spinning out? Or, even if you don't spin out, if you can't control the rear of the car when exiting tight corners, you're losing momentum and time, not to mention scorching your tires.

If you have some kind of weird opinion about TCS not being "real racing" or you just think you're too cool to use it even though you can't maintain lines through corners and exits....that's probably just your ego talking and you might be one of the people who should be using it.

So yes, you can be very quick using TCS, but there will always be potential to be quicker by turning it off. Even if you get your lines and steering perfect, TCS still engages during upshifts and loses you time for basically no reason. Even when you floor it in a straight line, TCS will kick in to prevent wheelspin, but with TCS off the car would have most likely still accelerated faster even taking the wheelspin into consideration. The problem is that TCS will kick in when wheelspin is detected even if you have partial traction there. When TCS kicks in, it's basically the same as lifting, so even though it's preventing wheelspin it's also reducing RPM's so the time you've saved by not spinning your wheels you're losing again by being further down the rev-bar, thus taking longer to reach the next gear and optimal speed before the next corner.

So in summary, TCS is slowing you down in small increments throughout the entire lap. If you can't control the throttle and the car well enough to avoid a spin or several near-spins, then TCS is the way to go and those small incremental losses aren't much compared to the time you'd lose by spinning. But if you can control the car well enough to not spin and maintain good lines while not letting the rear get away from you, then you're better off turning it off and gaining those several tenths per lap.

Also, TCS2 or nothing at all. No point in using anything higher than 2, and TCS1 doesn't prevent you from spinning so why have it on?

Thus concludes my novel on TCS

Awesome post. A novel well worth sharing. Completely agree with you. Not jumping in to the debate, but personal preference, has always been to run with no TCS.

Your post may need to be quoted again in months to come.

 

[MidnightRun85]

I'm a controller user and I use the right stick for go/stop, left for steering, R2/L2 for gears.

 

[05XR8]

I only use TCS for the LMP hybrids. Don't use it for the Group C cars.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

I have been a strong advocate for TCS before, because I couldn't drive properly without.
Every.time.I tried to learn to drive without I spun out coming out of slow corners and promptly put it back on.
I now run TCS 0 on almost everything. What made the change for me was starting to drive MR cars. Suddenly I wasn't comfortable with TCS 2 anymore, when the car was sliding it was too fast and violent for me to catch.
So I started running the MR cars at BB 0 and TCS 0. Now I could feel when a slide or slip was coming and counter it.
So I drove exclusive MR in B for a few weeks and now I can drive the FR cars with no TCS too.
So if you feel it's time to try it but are struggling to control the FR cars I suggest trying the MR instead.

 

[PoisedPenguin]

I'm a controller user and I use the right stick for go/stop, left for steering, R2/L2 for gears.

Interesting how that's different for everyone, I'm using R2/L2 for go/stop, R1/L1 for gears up/down, left stick for steering.

I rarely use TCS. Maybe that's why I developed a preference for the heavier and more stable cars. In Gr.3 give me the AMG, Jag, Genesis, DB9. Maybe I should try running other cars using TCS, the throttle control is hard on the controller anyway. Although I do get around pretty well in the McLaren.

 

[KiepeYai]

I'm a controller user and I use the right stick for go/stop, left for steering, R2/L2 for gears.

i use touchpad for steering , L3 for go, R3 for brakes, Arrow buttons for gears. It’s personal preference really

 

[Chevy Heavy]

Having just gone through the last couple days posts I've come to the conclusion that it's time for a grudge race between @Groundfish and @Pigems. TCS vs. no TCS at Interlagos. Seriously though, there's really no need to argue this every time it comes up. TCS is there as a crutch for those who can't control the car without it. That's not to say it's wrong to use it, it's whatever works for you. I think @Winnie847 summed it up perfectly in his post.

Even if you are fast with TCS on, you are not going as fast as you possibly could with it off...assuming you've taken the time to learn to drive properly without it.

This last part is important. The goal of racing is make your car go as fast as it can without losing control. This applies to any car on any track. You are the one controlling throttle and braking inputs, when you use TCS you give up a little of that control. 👍

 

[PoisedPenguin]

I'll likely not explain this too well, but the concept should be useable for most of us. Brake balance is the distribution of the brake system's effort. Think of the normal brake system as 100%. With BB at 0, the braking force is distributed 50/50. Moving the BB forward or rearward is asking the front or rear brakes to do more of the effort. This has the benefit of allowing for a change in the handling of the car. Examples of those benefits would be an FR car (Mustang, Viper, Aston, Jag, etc.) that uses a -1 (front bias) to use more braking to help decelerate before a corner. This can make some cars a little loose in the rear if you try something like trailbraking. Using +1 on the same car will allow for a more stable braking effort, but will hurt the car if you try to trailbrake. Brake balance acts differently for different drivetrains. FF cars like more rear balance in longer race C daily races. MR cars will be nervous with rear (positive) BB because many people learn to trailbrake. Sometimes when the race has tire wear multipliers, it's more advantageous to learn to drive with more positive BB in order to lower the amount of wear on the front tires.

Thanks for the reply, appreciate the effort. I did understand what happened to the distribution of the braking force, but hadn't been able to link it tot the different type of cars and trailbraking. I'll have to look into that a bit more, probably ending up in way too deep, pretending to understand what they're talking about

 

[OJBrit]

Except me. I'm the only normal one here.

If you think you're the normal one in a place where everyone isn't normal. Then you're not normal.

I have been a strong advocate for TCS before, because I couldn't drive properly without.
Every.time.I tried to learn to drive without I spun out coming out of slow corners and promptly put it back on.
I now run TCS 0 on almost everything. What made the change for me was starting to drive MR cars. Suddenly I wasn't comfortable with TCS 2 anymore, when the car was sliding it was too fast and violent for me to catch.
So I started running the MR cars at BB 0 and TCS 0. Now I could feel when a slide or slip was coming and counter it.
So I drove exclusive MR in B for a few weeks and now I can drive the FR cars with no TCS too.
So if you feel it's time to try it but are struggling to control the FR cars I suggest trying the MR instead.

Good post. I'll add that you should work up from less powerful cars. That's what I did. This will also help with the main issue with spinning out which is weight transfer rather than the loud pedal as slower older cars generally have softer suspension. Tidgeny should have a video to help with that.

Having just gone through the last couple days posts I've come to the conclusion that it's time for a grudge race between @Groundfish and @Pigems. TCS vs. no TCS at Interlagos. Seriously though, there's really no need to argue this every time it comes up. TCS is there as a crutch for those who can't control the car without it.

Yes they should. I can't wait to see a move up the inside into the Senna S.

 

[kevinddr]

OK, I'm throwing $20 into the prize pool for the grudge race! I would in fact quite literally pay and maybe even bust out the popcorn maker while I'm at it!

 

[Little_Guppy]

<...snip..>

Lastly it appears the penalty system is hitting its peak, I nearly walked away tonight, it is so dirty, constantly being hit and folks not even trying to make clean passes, any semblance of actual racing is gone.

Do you ever wonder if GTS has stopped and we have been added to one large social experiment and we are the monkeys. Each month they adjust the stimuli to see how we behave.

I'm hungry - where's my banana?

 

[Timm Sheehan]

TCS Question - I was wondering if running TCS 0 is harder on a DS4 than a rig setup? How about when first learning to race with TCS 0?

I (DS4 user) ask because I have practicing for the Daily C race (with TCS 0) and the rear end of the Supra is sliding all over the place. When I turn on TCS 2 (my comfortable setting) I seem to be able to control the rear end more (meaning less sliding).

 

[redbullfix]

TCS Question - I was wondering if running TCS 0 is harder on a DS4 than a rig setup? How about when first learning to race with TCS 0?

I (DS4 user) ask because I have practicing for the Daily C race (with TCS 0) and the rear end of the Supra is sliding all over the place. When I turn on TCS 2 (my comfortable setting) I seem to be able to control the rear end more (meaning less sliding).

Not to drag this conversation on and on, but I was also going to point out, that driving with a wheel vs, DS should be an entirely different discussion for TCS

 

[Winnie847]

TCS Question - I was wondering if running TCS 0 is harder on a DS4 than a rig setup? How about when first learning to race with TCS 0?

I (DS4 user) ask because I have practicing for the Daily C race (with TCS 0) and the rear end of the Supra is sliding all over the place. When I turn on TCS 2 (my comfortable setting) I seem to be able to control the rear end more (meaning less sliding).

Personally I think it is much more difficult to feather the throttle on a pad, because the inputs have to be tiny and the throttle application isn't linear from 0 to 100%. I say this having spent only a few months on pad before getting my first wheel in early 2018. It was super frustrating for me to try no TCS on pad, so I gave up on it.

Now, within the "pad" realm there are different input methods. If you use L3/R3 for throttle, you can add sticks to them, which are extenders that will allow you to be more precise by creating more travel distance for your fingers from 0-100%. If you use L2/R2 it might be a little more difficult. However, if you use D-pad or any of the X/O etc. shaped buttons, there is only 0 or 100% application, no in-between...which makes using no TCS pretty much impossible.

 

[KosmoKazi]

All I know is there's a lot of people not using TCS that should be.
You know those people who spin out on corner exits, and create problems for the people behind them?
A few times I have sent post-race messages saying "Dude, turn on your TCS".

This is a GREAT POINT! I've thought the same... any debate about it is prefaced by the assumption that you can control your car in any case! And just to make sure I'm not 'that guy' in races, I will often start out with it on, to avoid binning it on cold tires or taking someone out with me, if I cock it up at the start.

I was behind a guy yesterday was an absolute abomination in Daily Race C, his Supra swerving this way and that on every other corner. Sure, he was faster in the corners between, but meantime he was holding me up and nearly taking me out on the corners he DIDN'T get right... he should have been running TCS 2 (or stayed offline until he was comfortable controlling the car after more FP....)

I will add one more remark here: I think part of the problem is the screwy non-linear throttle that GT Sport insists on... a linear throttle would be INFINITELY easier to learn better throttle control, especially in the higher performance categories where the power band is so strong, and where the turbos can multiply the effect of that last 25% of throttle. Coupled with the prominence of the G29, with it's silly-long travel throttle pedal, learning better throttle control is harder than it needs to be, or should be, IMO.

 

[Little_Guppy]

Ah, so basically useless, at least for the issue I have. On the plus side, I suppose this means that if I can get round on TCS 1 then TCS 0 won't really be any different?

There are few variables at play - the car, the tires and your own psychology.

I am practicing LM/Gr3 now. I am comfortable with the Supra on TCS=0 but for the RS01 I have set it to TCS=1. I need a few more laps before I can reduce it.

I find value in TCS=1 as it helps dampen the exuberant corner exits. The little red throttle indicator is also useful feedback that I am not sensitive to otherwise.

My normal practice routine is to switch it on and off to observe the different effects:

• For the Super Formula cars I had to turn it off to best understand my failures at RBR/T1. I determined that TCS was not going to simply eliminate that yellow sausage and that it was up to me to properly navigate it.
• Inexplicably, at Mount Panorama, I was able to get my best times in the GT-R at TCS=2 vs. TCS=0.

Part of it is psychology. I swear the RS01 (TCS=1) behaves better and is less twitchy when hitting lateral curbs. That does not match @Pigems explanation and may just be the insurance policy stuck in my head that say to go hit those curbs harder.

 

[Groundfish]

TCS is there as a crutch for those who can't control the car without it

Sure it is bubba.
Re the other comment about an Interlagos challenge it was already done in a Beardo lobby with some weird custom bop Porsche.
After two arduous hours or whatever @Pigems beat me at the line by a few tenths. So there ya go.
I think people at this point don’t really care. But when a person has posted faster laps on qual every week for like a year than you saying they use tcs because they can’t control the car is ridiculous.
Smh

It’s argumentative rude just dumber than dirt.

 

[Timm Sheehan]

Not to drag this conversation on and on, but I was also going to point out, that driving with a wheel vs, DS should be an entirely different discussion for TCS

It is not my intention to drag this debate out, I work on new ways to improve my driving all the time and TCS is my next hurdle.

Personally I think it is much more difficult to feather the throttle on a pad, because the inputs have to be tiny and the throttle application isn't linear from 0 to 100%. I say this having spent only a few months on pad before getting my first wheel in early 2018. It was super frustrating for me to try no TCS on pad, so I gave up on it.

Now, within the "pad" realm there are different input methods. If you use L3/R3 for throttle, you can add sticks to them, which are extenders that will allow you to be more precise by creating more travel distance for your fingers from 0-100%. If you use L2/R2 it might be a little more difficult. However, if you use D-pad or any of the X/O etc. shaped buttons, there is only 0 or 100% application, no in-between...which makes using no TCS pretty much impossible.

Thank you, perfect reply to help me in my racing. I have been working on throttle control for while (L2/R2), shifting using L1/R1, and steering L3. I stopped using X/O a while back because of exactly what you said - 0% -> 100% with it being hard to feather (actually trail braking was extremely hard using X/O but easier now with L2/R2). Thank you again.

 

[Winnie847]

Sure it is bubba.
Re the other comment about an Interlagos challenge it was already done in a Beardo lobby with some weird custom bop Porsche.
After two arduous hours or whatever @Pigems beat me at the line by a few tenths. So there ya go.
I think people at this point don’t really care. But when a person has posted faster laps on qual every week for like a year than you saying they use tcs because they can’t control the car is ridiculous.
Smh

It’s argumentative rude just dumber than dirt.

oooh, I smell another 1v1 coming

 

[Pigems]

Sure it is bubba.
Re the other comment about an Interlagos challenge it was already done in a Beardo lobby with some weird custom bop Porsche.
After two arduous hours or whatever @Pigems beat me at the line by a few tenths. So there ya go.
I think people at this point don’t really care. But when a person has posted faster laps on qual every week for like a year than you saying they use tcs because they can’t control the car is ridiculous.
Smh

It’s argumentative rude just dumber than dirt.

What happened a few weeks ago when you tried going without TCS? What was the exact reasoning behind you switching back?