Dead enzo

[Young_Warrior]

On that pic above its not just missing the M3 grill but also the M3 rear bumper and exhaust.

The most obvious thing its lacking is the M3 alloys and bulging wheel arches

 

[Pebb]

Never mind what "Prince" Naseem Hamed did to his SLR...

I remember that crash it even hit a Mondeo and Golf.

 

[niky]

Sick.. poor cars.

Had a co-worker who just bit it riding a cruiser up in the mountains. At only 55mph, too. He got into a tangle and let go of the bike... wise thing to do, considering he was only about 130 lbs and the bike was probably around 600 lbs, but he went the wrong way off and broke his back on a tree. Poor guy.

I almost bit the bullet once (I swear, I was only half-sober and half-awake), and I'm not proud of it. Heck, if I was driving an exotic that night, I would've died for sure.

 

[Lee]

I remember that crash it even hit a Mondeo and Golf.

I think thats anything but a NAS 1....

 

[RandomHero]

Very true, points well taken.

But I still think a tube frame car would have fared better. Yes, the driver still would have likely died. But I don't think the car would be in two peices. And if we looked at a slightly less violent collision, I think the tube frame car would be safer than a C/F tub like the Enzo.

As seen above a barrier in the wall was not locked in place; when he came off the turn the car pushed up the track into hte wall consequently knocking the door open. He hit the end of the backstretch concrete wall at ~100mph. The car behind him [AC Delco] proceeded to t-bone him as he was sliding down onto the aapron. He literally stepped out of the car.


Story

 

[retsmah]

Was that 100mph straight into the wall, or into it an an angle? The wall moved, clearly that's a lot better situation to be in than hitting a concrete pillar which won't move at all.

I don't know wether a carbon fiber monocoque or steel tube frame is going to be safer, but to really compair the two you have to do a bit more analysis than looking at pictures from a couple of wrecks that aren't really similar at all.

 

[slimer90210]

As seen above a barrier in the wall was not locked in place; when he came off the turn the car pushed up the track into hte wall consequently knocking the door open. He hit the end of the backstretch concrete wall at ~100mph. The car behind him [AC Delco] proceeded to t-bone him as he was sliding down onto the aapron. He literally stepped out of the car.


Story

I saw that crash. A friend from near Bristol sent me an e-mail of the footage from it...
It was the most violent crash I have ever seen. And the driver walked away. Amazing!

 

[Blackbird.]

No the most violent one i've seen is when a NASCAR car lost it's brakes and went through the grass and dirt into a wall with one layer of 3 stacked high tires. He walked away.

But then Dale Earnhardht(sp?)'s crash looked like any other crash but he died. Then again he didn't have the Hans device or a full facial helmet so when they found him his lower jaw was shoved all the way back to his ears from the force of his jaw hitting the steering wheel. Maybe a good racer, but a dumbass one at that.

 

[Wolfe]

No the most violent one i've seen is when a NASCAR car lost it's brakes and went through the grass and dirt into a wall with one layer of 3 stacked high tires. He walked away.

I have a video of that...I like to think of it as proof that NASCARs can't make right-hand turns...

http://rapidshare.de/files/7328117/Right_turn.avi.html

 

[Young_Warrior]

Woah Thats Mad!!!!!!!

 

[Blackbird.]

Um where do you download the file? I pressed free now where's the file?

 

[Flerbizky]

I have a video of that...I like to think of it as proof that NASCARs can't make right-hand turns...

http://rapidshare.de/files/7328117/Right_turn.avi.html

wow.... Simply put - wow.... 👍

 

[retsmah]

After reading that story, it sounds like the nascar actually did end up in pretty much the same situation as the ferrari, sliding sideways into a solid object. Also according to that story it was cut in half, just as the ferrari was. It seems to me the only reason he walked away from it is that it just cut the nose of the car off, it seems to me that if it hit right in the middle of the car he would have ended up as badly off as the ferrari driver.

 

[rovens]

I'd say the Jeff Bodine crash is the most violent that ive seen. Just out of interest what kind of construction would an indy car have as i remember Mansell (among others) completely destroying his car and walking away.

 

[Majarvis]

Very true, points well taken.

But I still think a tube frame car would have fared better. Yes, the driver still would have likely died. But I don't think the car would be in two peices. And if we looked at a slightly less violent collision, I think the tube frame car would be safer than a C/F tub like the Enzo.

You don't want the car to remain intact in a crash like this, you want it to seperate like the Enzo did; it dissipates the energy of the crash. Obviously, you can only protect a driver so much, and this crash was far too much for the Enzo to sustain, but a tube frame car simply cannot protect a driver like a carbon fibre tubbed car can, otherwise F1 cars wouldn't have started using them years ago to protect the drivers more.

 

[Blackbird.]

Hey how bad was the crash at Mulsanne with that CLK GTR that went airborne and flipped upside down off the track. How was the damage on that? Did he survive?

 

[Jay]

Wasnt it Mark Webber driving that CLK GTR? Really those lemans flipping crashes werent all that bad.

 

[RandomHero]

After reading that story, it sounds like the nascar actually did end up in pretty much the same situation as the ferrari, sliding sideways into a solid object. Also according to that story it was cut in half, just as the ferrari was. It seems to me the only reason he walked away from it is that it just cut the nose of the car off, it seems to me that if it hit right in the middle of the car he would have ended up as badly off as the ferrari driver.

He hit the backstretch concrete wall head on with the right front corner and it just tore the car into pieces.

The guy who had his brakes fail at watkins glenn had several layers of barriers with varying densities so it doesn't count.

 

[retsmah]

You don't want the car to remain intact in a crash like this, you want it to seperate like the Enzo did; it dissipates the energy of the crash. Obviously, you can only protect a driver so much, and this crash was far too much for the Enzo to sustain, but a tube frame car simply cannot protect a driver like a carbon fibre tubbed car can, otherwise F1 cars wouldn't have started using them years ago to protect the drivers more.

I think the main reason carbon fiber tubs are used in F1 is that they are stiffer for their weight than a tube frame, probably not safety.

You definitley do not want your chassis to separate in the way the Enzo did. Its okay if the chassis bends and folds as that disippates energy, but you don't want it to deform so much that the driver is crushed. In that sense a tube frame is probably better, as the tube frame is made of ductile steel which can bend and absorb energy. A carbon fiber tub might be stronger, but it probably can't absorb as much energy, it won't bend, it just shatters.

Of course, as you said at some point there just isn't anything you can do to save a driver. If you hit something hard enough either the car is going to deform and kill the driver, or it's not going to deform and the rapid deceleration is going to kill the driver.

 

[Blackbird.]

Still, he tore through that barrier like it was a big piece of paper.

 

[RandomHero]

You don't want the car to remain intact in a crash like this, you want it to seperate like the Enzo did; it dissipates the energy of the crash. Obviously, you can only protect a driver so much, and this crash was far too much for the Enzo to sustain, but a tube frame car simply cannot protect a driver like a carbon fibre tubbed car can, otherwise F1 cars wouldn't have started using them years ago to protect the drivers more.

To make the chassis rigid?

 

[Small_Fryz]

Any vid's from these bad crashes?

 

[eliseracer]

Hey how bad was the crash at Mulsanne with that CLK GTR that went airborne and flipped upside down off the track. How was the damage on that? Did he survive?

He survived, although the video you're thinking of wasn't Mark Webber, I am not sure who it was, but he survived the crash. That was a damaging aerodynamic flaw for the MB CLR team, and these crazy backflips occured three times for them at LeMans. Here's a good writeup (and good LM site) that goes into more detail about the flaws of this, and the Porsche GT1, which had a similar crash at Petit-LeMans.

Webber's morning warm-up incident, Le Mans 1999:

 

[niky]

I remember when the first Nissan R390s came out, there were some similar crashes.

As for cf versus tube frame... cf is stronger for the weight, period. And it allows energy to dissipate well enough as impact force travels along the fibers. There is no advantage in either construction in terms of safety, except possibly as a result of poor design.

One worrying thing about carbon fiber is its longevity under racing conditions. Anyone remember the old Ferrari F1 (secondhand) that just fell in two while going down a track at a concours? Don't remember when, though. The bad thing about cf is that when it fails, it fails spectacularly.

 

[retsmah]

As for cf versus tube frame... cf is stronger for the weight, period. And it allows energy to dissipate well enough as impact force travels along the fibers.

That's not entirely true. CF may be stronger, but for a material to absorb energy the material must deform. CF will barely deform at all, it'll deform a little bit then shatter.

Another unrelated thing to point out is that the Enzo has doors, NASCAR and F1 cars do not. That's a decently sized hole in the chassis right where the Enzo was hit.

 

[Zardoz]

Hey how bad was the crash at Mulsanne with that CLK GTR that went airborne and flipped upside down off the track. How was the damage on that? Did he survive?

No serious injuries in any of the three back-flips. They didn't hit anything solid. They just took off and gyrated around, settled back to earth, and skidded to a stop.

(They were CLRs, not CLK-GTRs.)

 

[xcsti]

I remember when the first Nissan R390s came out, there were some similar crashes.

As for cf versus tube frame... cf is stronger for the weight, period. And it allows energy to dissipate well enough as impact force travels along the fibers. There is no advantage in either construction in terms of safety, except possibly as a result of poor design.

One worrying thing about carbon fiber is its longevity under racing conditions. Anyone remember the old Ferrari F1 (secondhand) that just fell in two while going down a track at a concours? Don't remember when, though. The bad thing about cf is that when it fails, it fails spectacularly.

That was a customer ferrari f1 (99 I think) car at laguna seca. I think it was last year. He had just bought it from from them too.

and yeah cf or carbon can shatter at failure.

 

[niky]

@hamster: I get what you're saying... I was just trying to say cf is strong considering it's so light...

That lack of flexibility is scary... just think of your car shattering into a zillion little cf threads... That Ferrari cf failure was spectacularly scary, as the car split at the driver's tub.

 

[Blackbird.]

How can CF be strong yet Tube frames can absorb more energy. In general that makes tube frames stronger. As in stronger that it will protect you.

 

[Famine]

He survived, although the video you're thinking of wasn't Mark Webber, I am not sure who it was, but he survived the crash.

Peter Dumbreck.