Dear PD, please bring GT7 back to DAY 1 physics and ffb

[snc]

@snc

Yeah some stuff was challenging, but isnt it the goal to grow and improve on that kinda stuff?

The chalenge part wasn't problem, unrealistic behaviour of cars was. But agree that now licenses are too easy (tough still struggle a litle with s10 when replaying it recently in vr).

 

[Ande3200]

The thing i hated at day one, was what i mention earlier, 300 ho rwd cars spinning out at launch its unrealistic, a stock 2018 Chevrolet camaro ss in real life with good set of tyres dosen’t spin out like it did at gt7 day one, that has improved as of later

 

[RacinLei]

@snc @pedroco
Yeah you are right some cars needed to be teeked but not the hole game. 3 sec. Faster than release is not the way to fix a game.

And these discussion about controller is also a joke. There are so much stuff to tweek on a wheel it makes it so much easyer then on Controller. Also the bop settings right now for daily C sf19 are fully against controller user.

Edit: the snap oversteer problem was not a grip or physic related problem.
For high downforce cars it was right hight and to soft springs. That force the car to hit the ground on highspeed.
Easy fix for the car, no change of physics or tire model needed.

 

[Pigems]

Let’s be real here too, in all honestly, the biggest issue with the entire game is braking. In what world can you take any car, at any speed, on any tires, and just mash the brakes to 100%, without any loss of speed, control, or ABS slowing you down greatly. The braking is the biggest joke in GT, in no way, shape, or form, should engaging the ABS, be a faster way around a track.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Also the bop settings right now for daily C sf19 are fully against controller user.

I don't think it is just the car settings, there is something fundamentally wrong with the way controller inputs are handled by this game which is apparent whenever you're racing something with lots of downforce or suddenly going from full steering lock one way to the other. This weeks race C is a perfect storm to screw pad players.

A while ago PD added the option to change controller sensitivity up from 7 to 10 but that needs to go far higher (which would probably destroy the tyres even quicker 😫.

 

[RacinLei]

I don't think it is just the car settings, there is something fundamentally wrong with the way controller inputs are handled by this game which is apparent whenever you're racing something with lots of downforce or suddenly going from full steering lock one way to the other. This weeks race C is a perfect storm to screw pad players.

A while ago PD added the option to change controller sensitivity up from 7 to 10 but that needs to go far higher (which would probably destroy the tyres even quicker 😫.

The big diffrent between controller and wheel is the one to one steering ratio for wheel user. Controller steering itself is to slow and thats not a sensetifity problem. It could be 20 and it wouldnt be enough.

Yeah daily C is such a pain in the a.. because of the diffrent in steering between wheel and pad. For wheel user is no prob to turn the car with 2000 rearwing. Watch a replay from the top 10 player in cockpitview and you will see how quick they are able to turn the car.
But thats a pd thing, they dont want that controller user are quick. Every other racing game hase no issus to implement quick controller steering.

 

[Scaff]

Compared to the day 1 physics, we’re basically playing GT Sport with slightly less understeer currently. It’s boring as hell, to be honest, and not very challenging at all.

Not the point that I was addressing, so the strawman can go back into the box.

Also, you are not the arbiter of who gets to decide what’s right and wrong, so I can think whatever I like, thank you.

It's objectively provable that...

"But now its just flooring every corner and slamming brakes every corner, and no oversteer. There is no car control what so ever.."

...is untrue, you can think it's accurate if you like, but you would be wrong.

just mash the brakes to 100%, without any loss of speed, control, or ABS slowing you down greatly.

So you saying that the brakes in GT7 don't slow you down :-)

Wording aside, this again is demonstrably untrue, does GT7 reflect it 100% accurately, nope, it's still quite a way off. Does GT7 attempt to reflect is to enough of a degree that it's present? Yep.

The braking is the biggest joke in GT, in no way, shape, or form, should engaging the ABS, be a faster way around a track.

Are you talking about road or race ABS systems? Under what conditions?

Because a race ABS set-up will, in reality, be faster around the track (and one hell of a lot more consistent). For road systems, it's more situation dependent, but in the rain, it will almost always be faster in reality.

 

[Pigems]

Not the point that I was addressing, so the strawman can go back into the box.



It's objectively provable that...

"But now its just flooring every corner and slamming brakes every corner, and no oversteer. There is no car control what so ever.."

...is untrue, you can think it's accurate if you like, but you would be wrong.


So you saying that the brakes in GT7 don't slow you down :-)

Wording aside, this again is demonstrably untrue, does GT7 reflect it 100% accurately, nope, it's still quite a way off. Does GT7 attempt to reflect is to enough of a degree that it's present? Yep.

Are you talking about road or race ABS systems? Under what conditions?

Because a race ABS set-up will, in reality, be faster around the track (and one hell of a lot more consistent). For road systems, it's more situation dependent, but in the rain, it will almost always be faster in reality.

No, it’s not. In iRacing, any car with ABS is going to be slower around a lap, if you are engaging the ABS under braking, all day, every day. Wanna try again? But in GT, it’s just mash the brakes, even on CH tires at 100mph, no locks, no slips, just consistent ABS saving you all day long.

 

[Scaff]

No, it’s not. In iRacing, any car with ABS is going to be slower around a lap, if you are engaging the ABS under braking, all day, every day. Wanna try again? But in GT, it’s just mash the brakes, even on CH tires at 100mph, no locks, no slips, just consistent ABS saving you all day long.

In reality, race ABS is quicker, period.

If it wasn't the very first thing that drivers of GT spec cars would do would be to set ABS to zero, and they don't. If it were true the entire GT4 grid would follow the lead of the Maserati MC GT4 and not have ABS, oddly they don't.

With road car systems, Ross Bentley addressed this in one of his books (SPeed Secrets I believe) and found that on a bone dry track a professional drive could just about beat an ABS system across a single lap using threshold braking, but couldn't do so consistently across multiple laps, on a wet track the ABS couldn't be beaten by pro drivers,

Oh, and 100% brake pressure in a car, regardless of the tyres stopping lock-ups being unrealistic? Do you really think so, because that's what ABS does, all day long. The clues even in the name.

 

[super_gt]

In reality, race ABS is quicker, period.

Even in a street car is quicker.



But I would appreciate if the time trails have an arrangement in the ranking with ABS Off.

 

[Scaff]

Even in a street car is quicker.



But I would appreciate if the time trails have an arrangement in the ranking with ABS Off.

Race ABS =/= Road ABS, my post above already covered this and cited a source.

You also don't seem to have actually watched that video either! The last time I checked 34.15m was a shorter stopping distance than 37.5M.

 

[Pigems]

In reality, race ABS is quicker, period.

If it wasn't the very first thing that drivers of GT spec cars would do would be to set ABS to zero, and they don't. If it were true the entire GT4 grid would follow the lead of the Maserati MC GT4 and not have ABS, oddly they don't.

With road car systems, Ross Bentley addressed this in one of his books (SPeed Secrets I believe) and found that on a bone dry track a professional drive could just about beat an ABS system across a single lap using threshold braking, but couldn't do so consistently across multiple laps, on a wet track the ABS couldn't be beaten by pro drivers,

Oh, and 100% brake pressure in a car, regardless of the tyres stopping lock-ups being unrealistic? Do you really think so, because that's what ABS does, all day long. The clues even in the name.

ABS releases the pressure when you lock the tires, that’s it, that’s all. Locking your tires is never faster, period, so engaging ABS will never be the fastest route to a lap. I’ll happily jump on any game with you, and night, and we can do it both ways, on live steam, so everyone can see how wrong you actually are. 😘

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

The big diffrent between controller and wheel is the one to one steering ratio for wheel user. Controller steering itself is to slow and thats not a sensetifity problem. It could be 20 and it wouldnt be enough.

Yeah daily C is such a pain in the a.. because of the diffrent in steering between wheel and pad. For wheel user is no prob to turn the car with 2000 rearwing. Watch a replay from the top 10 player in cockpitview and you will see how quick they are able to turn the car.
But thats a pd thing, they dont want that controller user are quick. Every other racing game hase no issus to implement quick controller steering.

The bit that annoys me most is that it's not a hardware issue, the analogue stick could go all the way from one side to the other in a fraction of the time of a wheel and it was a lot quicker on the old game but it's been artificially nerfed for this game and PD have done nothing to fix it. We even had Lamb, the fastest controller player in here pointing out how unbalanced it was during the Red Bull time trial.

I reckon they have done it to make the cars less edgy and easier for beginners to drive which would be fine if there was an option to enter a less restrictive mode for players who can handle it. I had to abandon race C after a couple of attempts yesterday because it was like a multi-class race, it's sad because it was such a good race on the old game.

 

[super_gt]

You also don't seem to have actually watched that video either! The last time I checked 34.15m was a shorter stopping distance than 37.5M.

It seems you didn't understand me, I made the post to support you.

 

[Scaff]

ABS releases the pressure when you lock the tires, that’s it, that’s all. Locking your tires is never faster, period, so engaging ABS will never be the fastest route to a lap.

Nope, ABS releases pressure before you lock the tyres, I know because I taught the damn subject in the motor industry. Now road car systems will be much more cautious in that regard (known as early intervention systems), while race spec systems will operate much closer to the point of lock (and that point is adjustable), but due to the way in which rubber behaves, you get a rotational speed to road speed mismatch before lock-up occurs (hell even Wiki manages to explain this correctly). Add in the fact that modern ABS systems also operate with EBD systems, and you have a set-up that even the best drivers will struggle to consistently beat, and will almost never be able to in the wet (as the video above and book I cited explain).

I’ll happily jump on any game with you, and night, and we can do it both ways, on live steam, so everyone can see how wrong you actually are. 😘

I'm not talking about a game, I would have assumed you would have understood that by now.

It seems you didn't understand me, I made the post to support you.

Ah, my bad, I thought you meant the driver was quicker. Apologies.

 

[RacinLei]

The bit that annoys me most is that it's not a hardware issue, the analogue stick could go all the way from one side to the other in a fraction of the time of a wheel and it was a lot quicker on the old game but it's been artificially nerfed for this game and PD have done nothing to fix it. We even had Lamb, the fastest controller player in here pointing out how unbalanced it was during the Red Bull time trial.

I reckon they have done it to make the cars less edgy and easier for beginners to drive which would be fine if there was an option to enter a less restrictive mode for players who can handle it. I had to abandon race C after a couple of attempts yesterday because it was like a multi-class race, it's sad because it was such a good race on the old game.

Agree agree agree all on point. Thought the same, pd should implement a toggle to switch between classic and expert steering for controller. Even motion steering is faster than stick!!! Its all on pd to change it but they dont want 🤬

 

[Pigems]

Nope, ABS releases pressure before you lock the tyres, I know because I taught the damn subject in the motor industry. Now road car systems will be much more cautious in that regard (known as early intervention systems), while race spec systems will operate much closer to the point of lock (and that point is adjustable), but due to the way in which rubber behaves, you get a rotational speed to road speed mismatch before lock-up occurs (hell even Wiki manages to explain this correctly). Add in the fact that modern ABS systems also operate with EBD systems, and you have a set-up that even the best drivers will struggle to consistently beat, and will almost never be able to in the wet (as the video above and book I cited explain).

I'm not talking about a game, I would have assumed you would have understood that by now.


Ah, my bad, I thought you meant the driver was quicker. Apologies.

If that’s the case, all the top iR and GT drivers would be running without ABS, as it would be fastest. Which is not the case, at all. This is a GT forum, and the conversation started of with GT, so yes, we are taking about video games.

 

[Scaff]

If that’s the case, all the top iR and GT drivers would be running without ABS, as it would be fastest. Which is not the case, at all. This is a GT forum, and the conversation started of with GT, so yes, we are taking about video games.

This conversation also focused on if it was a realistic represention of these systems, which was the point I was quite clearly referring to. The OP themselves brought reality into the discussion on the third post in the thread,!

That's an aside from the fact you referenced the real world systems, you were factualy wrong in your claims about them, but that doesn't change the fact you referred to real world ABS.

Attempting to force a 'GT only' directive onto the conversation changes none of that, and is a clear attempt to shift the goal posts.

Also GTP is quite happy to host discussions on topics that are non GT or game related, particularly when they are relevant to the topic being discussed, as they very much are in this case.

 

[Nebuc72]

If that’s the case, all the top iR and GT drivers would be running without ABS, as it would be fastest. Which is not the case, at all. This is a GT forum, and the conversation started of with GT, so yes, we are taking about video games.

Why is iRacing the only thing you're talking about? Who is to say iRacing isn't the unrealistic one here by simulating ABS poorly? I'm fairly certain they actually changed the way ABS functioned in the latest patch because it was unrealistic.

If you look at any ACC world record, they run ABS. If you look at real life GT3 racing, they run ABS.

iRacing was the exception here.

 

[RedRockValley]

With road car systems, Ross Bentley addressed this in one of his books (SPeed Secrets I believe) and found that on a bone dry track a professional drive could just about beat an ABS system across a single lap using threshold braking, but couldn't do so consistently across multiple laps, on a wet track the ABS couldn't be beaten by pro drivers

I remember when I used to hang around Assetto Corsa touge communities, if a car had ABS, it would never be turned off. Just way more consistent and allowed them to attack corners much quicker.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Its all on pd to change it but they dont want 🤬

Annoyingly I doubt PD even know, they have their feedback group with eSport players which will all be on wheels then they'll get some feedback from the influencers/YouTubers, all of those (or the ones big enough to have any clout) are on wheels too. I doubt they're getting much from controller players who are probably the majority.

We'll be waiting a while.

 

[Imari]

I’ll happily jump on any game with you, and night, and we can do it both ways, on live steam, so everyone can see how wrong you actually are. 😘

Just because no game manages to get it right, doesn't mean that how @Scaff is describing real world ABS systems is incorrect. If you want GT to have more realistic ABS systems then that means that they should be more like reality, not more like other video games.

Comparing one game to another game to prove how realistic a feature is may be one of the silliest things I've heard in a while.

 

[RacinLei]

Annoyingly I doubt PD even know, they have their feedback group with eSport players which will all be on wheels then they'll get some feedback from the influencers/YouTubers, all of those (or the ones big enough to have any clout) are on wheels too. I doubt they're getting much from controller players who are probably the majority.

We'll be waiting a while.

Yes sadly, but PD shouldnt forget its roots than like you say the majority is playing on controller.

 

[Baka_Marimo]

I can also say that I have golded all Licenses on the day 1 physics, but the Circuit Experience on Le Mans stopped me dead in my tracks. The Peugeot LMP was just going from full grip to no grip in an instant. That wasn't difficulty for the sake of realism, it was difficulty for the sake of difficulty.

 

[Goldin]

PD must balance controller users, and wheel users experience, and let's be honest we can't talk about realism and physics while playing on controller.

About wheel users, first we would need to agree about "ideal" wheel settings, to be able to review feedback from same perspective.

I have found that to me on T300 is (5-1) setting by far the best with most feedback and details, while having reasonable torque force.
Yes we are missing some details that are availible on controller, but I hope that would be fixed in future updates.
(Btw.even on DS4 GT7 has far best feedback on controller compared to old titles)

 

[RacinLei]

I can also say that I have golded all Licenses on the day 1 physics, but the Circuit Experience on Le Mans stopped me dead in my tracks. The Peugeot LMP was just going from full grip to no grip in an instant. That wasn't difficulty for the sake of realism, it was difficulty for the sake of difficulty.

Yeah that thing was horrible. I recreated it in timetrial set the car 5 clics front and rear higher and the problem was gone.

I dont know who thought it was a good idea to copy paste the bop values from gtsport and then limit afterwarts the right hight by minimum 30mm for all gr.1-2-3-4 and high downforce cars, there are to low compare to gtsport and in my opinion is that the main reason for the most of the problems.

And speeking of realworld.
Non of these cars were officialy alowed to run the Nordschleife because of the minimum right hight rules since 2013.

@Goldin
These stuff is also missing on dualsense ps5 version, no tire response, rumble and haptik feedback is to weak. On ps4 is rumble way better and tire grip response is also included.
And mentioning realism, wich camera are you using? If you say b-t-3rdperson cam than its also over with realism 😉

 

[Galvston]

Some people/posters have consistent bad takes.

GT7 is much more realistic now than before, even though it was fun correcting your car and feeling like you were on the limit easier. It was more hardcore if you will.

A pity that physics system was not close to real life so it got changed for the better now. Always better when it's more realistic.

 

[Nebuc72]

Some people/posters have consistent bad takes.

GT7 is much more realistic now than before, even though it was fun correcting your car and feeling like you were on the limit easier. It was more hardcore if you will.

A pity that physics system was not close to real life so it got changed for the better now. Always better when it's more realistic.

Does astonish me how many people still believe "realism is when spin"

GT7 isn't perfect, for sure, but if reality was like some of the sims from the late 2000's/early 2010's - every second person would be spinning out when getting groceries or picking their kids up from school.

 

[Goldin]

@Goldin
These stuff is also missing on dualsense ps5 version, no tire response, rumble and haptik feedback is to weak. On ps4 is rumble way better and tire grip response is also included.
And mentioning realism, wich camera are you using? If you say b-t-3rdperson cam than its also over with realism 😉

😄 Don't worry, I use bumper cam when I want to be fast (TT and sport mode), and interior view for enjoying different cars and boring grinding.

 

[KaiB]

The only way to adress Pad and wheel users gap was to give an option to filter matchmaking, wheel users against wheel users and Pad users against pad users, and the option of course to not use filters just like it works now .

The nature of the hardware dont allow to make such changes and trying to balance for both only limits game development..., Pad users have already plenty of help going on, and actually GT its one of the best if not the best racing game with Pad support, like the motion sensor that after a lot of pratice its way more fun and intuitive compared to stick people just need to figure how to use it in a confortable manner.