"Defensive Moves" Question?

[Crushed]

Hey when i was watching monza 2011, Shumacher made defensive moves on hamilton (if i remember correctly) multiple times. I was just wondering... what are the rules on that? Was he not allowed? Was he ever penalized?

 

[Ardius]

There is a very vague "one move to defend a corner" rule. Its generally enforced by the FIA but its more a driver's agreement.

Its a very difficult area to really police as there is so much gray area between what is considered a defensive move and what is a move to a better racing line.

As such, Schumacher wasn't penalised for Monza as he didn't make more than one move to defend his line. He did move back across in the entry into some of the corners like Lesmo but this is generally accepted as re-taking the racing line, having "won" the corner already. (he'd already prevented Lewis taking the inside line and Lewis was never going to make a move stick there on the outside and was too far back, so Schumacher could return to the outside and hence faster line before entering the corner). So sometimes it can look like two moves but its really just one defensive move and then an extra move after his defence was successful in denying the other driver any chance.

The point of the "one move" rule is to stop people weaving all over the track in braking zones and making it impossible for people to pass and also very dangerous. An example of what happens when the defending driver attempts to move across in the braking zone is Schumacher vs Heidfeld Australia 2005. Heidfeld was already in a position to attack on the inside but Schumacher moved unexpectedly in the braking zone, giving Heidfeld little chance to react without losing control.

The one move at Monza that Schumacher really should have been penalised for was his dirty door-shutting move on Hamilton into the Curva Grande which forced him onto the grass.
This is not acceptable defensive driving and Schumacher is a very famous example of this kind of dirty move. But I can see why perhaps the stewards felt Hamilton was being a little optimistic that Schumacher would have left that gap wide open.

 

[lukecfc]

As such, Schumacher wasn't penalised for Monza as he didn't make more than one move to defend his line. He did move back across in the entry into some of the corners like Lesmo but this is generally accepted as re-taking the racing line, having "won" the corner already. (he'd already prevented Lewis taking the inside line and Lewis was never going to make a move stick there on the outside and was too far back, so Schumacher could return to the outside and hence faster line before entering the corner). So sometimes it can look like two moves but its really just one defensive move and then an extra move after his defence was successful in denying the other driver any chance.

I could be wrong, but I thought I heard one of the commentators say that it wasn't legal to go back to the racing line after making a move. And this would make sense, because as the attacking driver lines up for his braking point, the defending car is off his line, so the attacking driver might brake a bit later. Then the defending driver suddenly goes back to the original line, and because the other car is braking later, he can't slow down in time, and you have another Melbourne 05 (I presume, haven't seen it properly).

 

[Sach]

What Schumacher did at Monza a couple of times was over the line, typical for him honestly. Silly to see him do it too with an inferior car, which makes the way he held back Hamilton even more unsportsmanlike.

 

[Akmuq]

I could be wrong, but I thought I heard one of the commentators say that it wasn't legal to go back to the racing line after making a move. And this would make sense, because as the attacking driver lines up for his braking point, the defending car is off his line, so the attacking driver might brake a bit later. Then the defending driver suddenly goes back to the original line, and because the other car is braking later, he can't slow down in time, and you have another Melbourne 05 (I presume, haven't seen it properly).

Yeah, Brundle and Coulthard originally said that and at the time I didn't see anything wrong until they mentioned it but they have a point which you have said, but Schumacher wasn't breaking the rules, I'd say it was just a bit of bias with Hamilton being British and what-not...

 

[Ardius]

I could be wrong, but I thought I heard one of the commentators say that it wasn't legal to go back to the racing line after making a move. And this would make sense, because as the attacking driver lines up for his braking point, the defending car is off his line, so the attacking driver might brake a bit later. Then the defending driver suddenly goes back to the original line, and because the other car is braking later, he can't slow down in time, and you have another Melbourne 05 (I presume, haven't seen it properly).

The corner they were talking about though, Lesmo 1, Lewis was on the outside and had already given up when Michael moved the second time back to the racing line. Lewis was never going to run deep and run on the outside line in this corner as it would never have worked. He'd also visibly backed off once he'd realised that and Schumacher hence retook the preferred racing line once it was clear Lewis wasn't going to make a move stick.

This is why I refer to it as a "gray area" - no two corners or situations are the same. If we were talking about the exact same moves and lines but in a different corner, say, turn 1 at Malaysia where someone could make an outside line work, then yes, Schumacher would be in the wrong.
But because we are talking about Lesmo 1, a corner where outside overtaking is rare and most of the time impossible, it means Michael's "2nd move" is a fair move as its accepted that the attacking driver would never have tried to put their car there anyway.

If Lewis had braked later and gone for the outside pass, it would rely on Michael to not only give him a huge amount of space in the corner, but to effectively back out of the throttle and give up the place instantly, as he would not have been able to turn tightly enough to give the room and carry the speed round the corner to defend his position. He was only ever going to run wide back to the outside line on the exit as this is the natural line around the corner. Due to this inevitable outcome, Lewis would have had to back off to avoid collision.
Basically, if Lewis had attacked on the outside in Lesmo 1, it would have required Michael to completely give up the position in order to make the move work. Obviously he wouldn't have, so Lewis would have had to back out. So instead we have Lewis not even trying the move and Michael making his 2nd move in the braking zone to return to the better line through the corner.

In this kind of corner, you can only ever hope to try and distract a defending driver and try to pull off a "switchback" if they try to defend the inside line.