Definition...

[Dave A]

Originally posted by bmwx
Retails for:

<250k = Not a supercar
>250k = Supercar

Of course I suppose there are certain stipulations, exceptions, etc. But for the most part... you won't find many supercars for much less, and most cars that costly are pretty.... well... super.

Excuse me while I pat myself on the back.

You can by a supercar for under 100k, the M12 GTO is a supercar performance wise and that's alot less than 100k. By most peoples standards the Honda NSX Type-R is a supercar, as it has on several occasions beaten Porsche GT3's round a track, the much cheaper TVR T350C has beaten a 350k Pagani. There are 2 types of very fast cars, Grand tourers like the DB7's and 550M and supercars, the supercars are the one's with little or no comforts and weight adding parts that arn't needed. TVR's are supercars and show me a production TVR that costs more than 80k, there isn't one.

 

[Famine]

Quick test... Categorise the following cars:

Aston Martin Vanquish
Pagani Zonda C12-S 7.3
Ferrari 575 Maranello
Mercedes Vision SLR
Honda NSX-R
Brabus EV12
Noble M12 GTO
Nissan R34 Skyline GT-R VspecII
Lamborghini Gallardo
Porsche 911 996 Turbo
Westfield XTR2
Koeniggsegg
Shelby Cobra 427
Porsche Boxster
Subaru Impreza 22B
Toyota Supra Twin Turbo (Mk4)
Mosler Raptor
Chevrolet Corvette Z06
Honda Integra Type-R
Lotus Esprit Sport 350


Go!

 

[Dave A]

The Vanquish is a super car unlike the DB7 which is a grand tourer
The Zonda is a supercar
The 575M is a grand tourer
The SLR is a supercar
The NSX-R is a supercar
The Brabus EV1-12 is a super saloon
The Noble M12 GTO is a supercar
The Skyline R34 GT-R is a super saloon, it is called a supercar but only because it's performance is similar to the NSX's
The Lamborghini Gallardo is a supercar
The Porsche 911 996 turbo is a supercar
The Westfield XTR2 is a track day car, it coukd be classed as a supercar in some ways.
The Koenigsegg is a supercar
The Cobra 427 is a muscle car
The Porsche Boxster is a sports car
The Subaru Impreza 22B is another super saloon
The Supra TT MK4 is a sports car
The Mosler Raptor is a super car
The Cheverolet Corvette Z06 is a sports car that can perform like some supercars
The Honda Integra type-R is in no way a supercar
The Lotus Esprit Sport 350 is a supercar

 

[Famine]

Now, in my list, I'd only consider 2 of them to be hypercars and a further 3 to be supercars... Odd, innit?

 

[skylineruler]

u cant forget the ford gt40 lemans and street version

 

[Wingsofwar]

i always though of supercars to be tuned for high performance both engine and handling. iv seen funny cars break impossible speeds and those arnt considered "supercars". Super car is obviously going to be expensive due to the technology involved in its birth. Using great mechanics knowlegdge to built a machine that can compete were no ordanary production car can match up to. Catagorizing the skyline as a supercar is understandable..but i still dont believe it belongs there. The BNR34 could not hold the GT500 class stock, thats why it must be modified to race the event. Maybe if the 34 could compete with little or no modifications..then i would say its a supercar. Supercars are rare not just because we dont want 600hp monsters tearing up our streets everyday. but the building of such a machine is costly and not a smart decision to put into mass production. Konisegge, zonda, mclaren,enzo all built street weapons not compairable to the sports car class z06,z32,GTR,STI. Although some cars do stand within the boarder between the classes. Viper, GT3, and numerious ferraris.

Modifying a sports car or any car for that matter to compete with exsisting cars classified as supercars does not make that car any super than when it was origonaly built. ie civic (vomits)

 

[vat_man]

It's a difficult one - I used to always use the current model Porsche 911 turbo as about the 'entry level' supercar, and work from there. If you're faster and more exotic than that, you're a supercar.

 

[bmwx]

Originally posted by vat_man
It's a difficult one - I used to always use the current model Porsche 911 turbo as about the 'entry level' supercar, and work from there. If you're faster and more exotic than that, you're a supercar.

Hey that's pretty good...

 

[2F2F]

A super car is a car MADE to be fast and has to have at least a V10.

Above a person stated that a TVR T350C has beaten a 350k Pagani. This is not always the car.
In most cases it is the DRIVER who determines who would win, because in a race most cars MUST have the same power, weight ect.

A super car IS a car that the produce makes so few that people have to wait YEARS for(Saleen S7).

Skylines, Supara's< and others are SPORT cars, BUT they have powerfull engines and are built for speed BUT, they are also made so that the average person could aford one, and they make it so they are STREET LEGAL.

 

[vat_man]

So, under your rules a Ferrari F40, with a twin turbo V8, and a Porsche 959 (and indeed the numerous road going 962s that were around in the early '90s, such as the Dauer) with a twin turbo flat 6, don't qualify as supercars?

 

[2F2F]

i ment MOST cars. cars from back before 2000 had more powerfull engines so they didnt need as big an engine.

eg. shelby GT-350. can whoop most cars out on the market today.

 

[vat_man]

Indeed - highlights the difficulty of a strict definition, doesn't it?

 

[2F2F]

yes. very hard when there are so many differnt kinds and time periods.

 

[Wingsofwar]

atlest a v10? nah i dont think so..if mazda wanted to make a supercar..they would definatly work around making a rotary engine that works well with a RWD chasis. Its not the number of HP that matters or how many cylinders it has..its the characteristics and motion of the car under extreme speeds and serious driving presure that matters to class a vehicle a "supercar".

 

[graveltrap]

Supercar -A Definition


"First of all, looks. A supercar has to be visually arresting, needs to attract attention when standing still, in a parking lot or at the side of the road. A car enthusiast will walk over to it, peer round it, check its lines are as dramatic in the metal as they were when he drooled over them in his regular motoring magazine. But a true supercar will also catch the eye of those who have little interst in great feats of motor engineering. On the move, the real test of a car's visual appeal is whether it attracts attention from drivers travelling in the opposite direction on a motorway. If their eyes are drawn across six carriageways to your vehicle (or if they hang out the window to take pictures), you're in a supercar.

It needs to sound the part too; indeed, the fact that the noise comes from the engine bay rather than a drainpipe underneath its rear bumper raises your car above the hot hatch throng. Even in this era of muted exhaust notes, a supercar should breathe menace(or fire) be it a throbbing six-cylinder, grumbling eight or tem, or a buzzing twelve.

Finally, it should be fast - very fast ..................." - Classic Cars Magazine, Sept '01

 

[Jugend]

Hey guys, I just thought of something!

If this was a site with 99% women instead of now 99% men this debate would have been about the definition of "love".

 

[///M-Spec]

Here's my working definition of a supercar:

Rule #1 Must be engineered and constructed to an extreme not present in everyday cars, making use of the latest materials and techniques without compromise due to cost. Level of construction quality must be industry leading. Parts must be purpose-designed, not derived from "lesser" models.

Rule #2 Must provide a driving experience outside the scope of ordinary sports cars. It should exceed contemporary sports cars not only in outright speed, but all performance disciplines. It should do this over a wide range of environmental conditions.

Rule #3 Must have exceptional visual impact.

Rule #4 Must be street-legal, run on ordinary premium gas and have a marginal amount of practicality, otherwise every race car would qualify.

Thus, under these very strict requirements, only a handful of supers have ever been made: Mercedes-Benz Silver Ghost, Bugatti Royale, Dusenburg SJ, Mercedes-Benz 300SL Gullwing, Lamborghini Muira, Countach, BMW M1, Porsche 959 and Carrera GT, Ferrari GTO, Daytona, 288GTO, F40, F50, Enzo, Saleen S7, Pagani Zonda, The Big Mac.. a few more, but not many.

The NSX might qualify, but it really fails to deliver on Rule #2. The Ultima GTR qualifies for all but Rule #1. The M-B AMG SL65 almost qualifies... but it is overshadowed by the SLR.

Sorry, but the Skyline GT-R is not a supercar. Neither is the Supra or Viper or Z06 or even 911 Turbo. Their roots are too "plebian".


///M-Spec

 

[Dave A]

Originally posted by 2F2F
A super car is a car MADE to be fast and has to have at least a V10.

Above a person stated that a TVR T350C has beaten a 350k Pagani. This is not always the car.
In most cases it is the DRIVER who determines who would win, because in a race most cars MUST have the same power, weight ect.

It was the same driver, they were doing lap times not an actual race and the T350C has beaten the Zonda in more test's by different magazines. And to add to this power and weight thing, yes most racing classeskeep the cars very close in terms of power and weight but the different cars still drive differentley, take the British GT cup for example, the Lister Storm dominated that cup for the last few years, it's had driver changes, one of them went to drive for a Marcos team, he was the current champion, did he win any races, not one.

 

[Famine]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Here's my working definition of a supercar:

Rule #1 Must be engineered and constructed to an extreme not present in everyday cars, making use of the latest materials and techniques without compromise due to cost. Level of construction quality must be industry leading. Parts must be purpose-designed, not derived from "lesser" models.

[...]

F40

That rule rules out that car. Many components for the F40 came from the 288GTO. Not least of which was the chassis - albeit a wide-track version.

Anyone else want to have a crack at categorising my list of cars?

 

[Dave A]

I consider a supercar to be fast in both a straight line and round a track, it should have less copromising features and parts than a regular car, and thats about it. That definition where it should use the latest materials and techniques rules out some of the best supercars ever, the Diablo, GT40, F40, 959,

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by Famine
That rule rules out that car. Many components for the F40 came from the 288GTO. Not least of which was the chassis - albeit a wide-track version.

Yes, but the 288GTO is not a 'lesser' car. It was the Ferrari flagship in its day. The F40 is an evolution of sorts.

Just like the F1 LM still qualifies even though it is based on the "lesser, base" F1.


///M-Spec

 

[Dave A]

It rules out the 288GTO as well though.

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by Famine
Anyone else want to have a crack at categorising my list of cars?[/color] [/B]

Supercar:
Pagani Zonda C12-S 7.3
Koeniggsegg

GT
Aston Martin Vanquish (almost a supercar, but really a GT)
Ferrari 575 Maranello (ditto)
Porsche 911 996 Turbo
Nissan R34 Skyline GT-R VspecII
Toyota Supra Twin Turbo (Mk4)

Sports Car/Homologation Special
Honda NSX-R
Noble M12 GTO
Westfield XTR2
Shelby Cobra 427
Porsche Boxster
Mosler Raptor
Chevrolet Corvette Z06
Lotus Esprit Sport 350
Subaru Impreza 22B
Lamborghini Gallardo

Super Sedan
Brabus EV12

Show/Concept car
Mercedes Vision SLR (production car will be a supercar)

Hot-hatch
Honda Integra Type-R


The Gallardo, Vanquish and 575M occupy a catagory I consider "near-supercar". They meet most of the criteria except for employing latest industry, cost-be-damned construction techniques. Yes, I know the Vanquish has a very advanced space-frame that uses aircraft bonding techniques.. but so does an Audi A8.


///M-Spec

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by live4speed
It rules out the 288GTO as well though.

Why?

 

[Dave A]

Because even when it was built it wasn't the latest techniques, the engine had been used before the chassis was new but it was built with the same materials and using the same techniques as older Ferraris.

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by live4speed
I consider a supercar to be fast in both a straight line and round a track, it should have less copromising features and parts than a regular car, and thats about it. That definition where it should use the latest materials and techniques rules out some of the best supercars ever, the Diablo, GT40, F40, 959,

The Diablo gets "grand-fathered" in as a supercar because it is largely based on the concepts started in the Countach.

The GT40 is a homologation special and a sportscar, not a super car, IMO.

The F40 had extensive amounts of bodywork made of fiberglass as per racecar practice and a state of the art race-derived motor. It was the first car that I ever heard of which used the engine block as a structural component. That's pretty damned advanced for the mid-80s.

The 959, while based on the 911 bodyshell had a bespoke race-engine. It also had the most advanced AWD system in the world for a street-car at the time and is the grand-daddy of the popular systems we see today.


///M-Spec

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by live4speed
Because even when it was built it wasn't the latest techniques, the engine had been used before the chassis was new but it was built with the same materials and using the same techniques as older Ferraris.

Yes, but was there anything newer at the time that Ferrari declined to use? It may not have broken much new ground, but it was still state-of-the-art when it was new.


///M-Spec

 

[Dave A]

So the Diablo gets in cos it's based on the countach.
The GT40 is not a supercar, thats the first time I'ver heard someone say that.
The F40 did have new ideas in it but it was still based on an older car, and yes 288GTO is a lesser car compared to the F40.
The 959 was state of the art with it's on board computer managment but it borrowed alot from 911's of the time.

 

[Famine]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Supercar:
Pagani Zonda C12-S 7.3
Koeniggsegg

GT
Aston Martin Vanquish (almost a supercar, but really a GT)
Ferrari 575 Maranello (ditto)
Porsche 911 996 Turbo
Nissan R34 Skyline GT-R VspecII
Toyota Supra Twin Turbo (Mk4)

Sports Car/Homologation Special
Honda NSX-R
Noble M12 GTO
Westfield XTR2
Shelby Cobra 427
Porsche Boxster
Mosler Raptor
Chevrolet Corvette Z06
Lotus Esprit Sport 350
Subaru Impreza 22B
Lamborghini Gallardo

Super Sedan
Brabus EV12

Show/Concept car
Mercedes Vision SLR (production car will be a supercar)

Hot-hatch
Honda Integra Type-R

A much more realistic list... Although anyone with a Teg may well take offence at being lumped in with the hot hatches.

 

[2F2F]

Supercars
Pagani Zonda C12-S 7.3
Lamborghini Gallardo
Ferrari 575 Maranello
Lotus Esprit Sport 350
Mosler Raptor
Koeniggsegg


Almost supercars
Aston Martin Vanquish
Mercedes Vision SLR
Brabus EV12
Noble M12 GTO
Porsche 911 996 Turbo

Muscle car
Shelby Cobra 427

Sports cars
Westfield XTR2
Honda Integra Type-R
Porsche Boxster
Honda NSX-R
Nissan R34 Skyline GT-R VspecII
Toyota Supra Twin Turbo (Mk4)
Chevrolet Corvette Z06
Subaru Impreza 22B