demo physics discussion

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cletus 669
After playing the TT demo since it came out I booted up GT5P again yesterday and I could have sworn that I was playing standard mode and not pro. In pro with all aids off and abs 1 I was a full 2 seconds faster then I was 2 weeks ago before the demo. Now GT5P seems like an arcade racer compared to the TT demo! does anyone else feel the same? I can not wait for GT5!
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After playing GT5 TT and going back to GT5P the physics do feel a slight more arcade like. GT5 is going to be great can't wait also!
 
Oh it definatly feels sweeter now, feel like you really have to learn the car your driving (said, of course, without any experience with other cars though!)
 
Leweegibo
Oh it definatly feels sweeter now, feel like you really have to learn the car your driving (said, of course, without any experience with other cars though!)
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Before in GT4 and GT5P it seemed to me like you had four cars to learn to drive, FF, FR, MR, and RR. It didn't matter about actual car brand you were using. I think in GT5 we are going to have to learn each car individualy. GT5 is going to be all that and a box of crackers!!!
 
I think the above post is why having as many cars as possible is essential in a game of the quality of GT5. Having your favorite cars in it will be immensely satisfying, versus something supercar and race car heavy like Forza. Only Gran Turismo has offered me a car list which included drives like the 240SX hatch. And now, I don't feel as sad not owning one!

This is also going to make GT Planet a valuable resource, because it will take a small eternity to test out one thousand cars! Posters here will be very handy in finding surprisingly cool cars in the list.
 
Now i have had more time with demo and like it much more :) FFB is very nice and wobbling does not happen even on 7/10 game and 100% wheel FFB settings (turbo s wheel). However i must say oversteer physics seem too snappy. I now feel undesteer better with stronger FFB settings and it seems like FFB is not so bad after all. It feels there are couple of options:

1: PD did a mistake and put a 100% locked diff on cars.
2: PD did put a 100% locked diff on cars on purpose to make it more challenging for the time trial.
3: Oversteer physics are wrong;too snappy compared to lfs and real life etc.
4: It still just the FFB like i first thought although it now feels to me it's not :)
5: TV's mode has too big input lag for this game.(i played with all the bells and whistles 240Hz interpolation mode) (i have two very low lag modes to test next)

Likely its bit FFB and bit oversteer physics what need fixing.
 
That is quite an assumption, I doubt that is the case, the last car i drove with a locked diff suffered from plow understeer.
 
having now played the game:

Understeer seems to be implemented very well. Too heavy on the brakes, too much steering input and the car reacts accordingly.

The grass is wicked. Having no experience shooting off in the grass at 100mph in real life, I can't say whether or not it's accurate. It seems a bit ridiculous, but I can't judge.

Oversteer seems accurate. Smooth inputs eliminate any issues. Duh. When you don't make smooth inputs, I will agree that there seems to be a lack of any control to correct. I think that in my experiences so far, that can be chalked up to a bad driving position with my wheel. (No more cockpit.) I am unable to react as well as I could with my old setup.

More later.
 
I can't say for sure, who can? but something is slightly off, be it physics, ffb or more likely its the car. Having only two relatively similar cars to test with makes it hard to draw any real conclusions. Its like flipping a coin twice and getting heads two times on the bounce and declaring that heads is the only possible outcome. Right now it looks like the only way we are going to know for sure is when the full GT5 comes out and we have more cars (data) to play with.
 
Since there is 14 pages here and 14 pages of any mention of 350Z I was just wondering if anyone one that owns the car has commented on the physics.

I think I would be very dissapointed if I bought one and it drove that way.

I just tried it for a few laps and my initial impression is it is reminiscent of FM2.

I have been playing FM3 and am orientated to it's handling physics so that may account for the initial reaction.

I don't recall the handling physics in GT5P being like this Demo.
Guess I'll have to go spend some lap time with it maybe.
 
Stevisiov
That is quite an assumption, I doubt that is the case, the last car i drove with a locked diff suffered from plow understeer.
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👍 this is the predominant trait of a locked diff.......unless the car you speak off is a highly adjustable race car !
 
unv412
👍 this is the predominant trait of a locked diff.......unless the car you speak off is a highly adjustable race car !
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Well it was actually a drift car, it turned on a dime the moment you broke traction, but under normal driving circumstance, it only wanted to move in a straight line. :scared:

Spagetti69
He meant if the car he bought drove like the one in the demo.
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I understood that bit, I was specifically after, what traits the car had which would make you not want to own the car in real life.
 
Theres a bit of confusion going on here, drift cars as pointed out by Stevisiov are tuned to drift, by that I mean the suspension and drivetrain are adapted to allow the car to oversteer very easily but be very controlable at the same time. The cars in the TT are not drift cars, they are setup for the track. Now any track car is setup not to oversteer, it will oversteer if you push it like any car but it's primarily setup for maxinum grip, break that grip and the control you have is next to none!
Ok the locked diff......it dosn't have a locked diff, thats something you'll find on 4 wheel drive vehicles when straight line traction is needed off road, what it dose have is a limited slip diff........something many of you with mid to high powered cars have on your own vehicles and it's desighned to give more power and control in the corners. Or if your jeremy clarckson it's there to create smoke whilst shouting "POWER" LOL
The whole issue of good physics = the ability to powerslide or do perfect donuts is wrong.......unless you've specificaly set your car up to do that.
One last thing is you need to look at the speed your doing when you sudenly lose the back end.......The fastest speed I've done and lost the back end was at 65mph...it was in a Gen 7 fwd 190bhp celica going round a long sweeping corner and it happend because the rear tyre suddenly dumped about 70% of it's preasure....I held it but it wasn't a hollywood moment!! If I'm playing about with the backend on my 330 it's usualy between 20mph-40mph.....well within my meger skill.
If you just check out these videos you'll see some of the worlds most talented drivers can't "catch" or hold an unexpected oversteer moment on the track!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1aq_F9QzPQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfb4G44_e1w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXubxGXy3IA

When you look at most racing crashes they are caused by either 1 of these 4 things, colision, mechanical faliure, understeer or oversteer. In GT5D if you start getting oversteer in the untuned car you need to countersteer (steer into the slide) very very quickly, but trying not to over compensate and start a pedulum effect. Normaly you would also power out of the slide at the same time.......Don't! all that happens is the TC kicks in and kills the power, this in turn transfares the weight to the front making the back light and thus have even less traction making the situation even worse! If you don't catch it quick enough then I'm afraid your along for the ride, the problem is a simple one, you gave it too much power.....happens to GT5D players and it happens to F1 drivers racing for the world championship. What it dose show is the superb physics of GT5 and the advances of the weight transfare and tyre physics over GT5P. When the full game hits you'll be able to adjust the car to suit your driving style but until the full release your stuck with a car setup which may not suit everyone but is neserceriy to have a equal playing field for the TT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvOg2ydEY7Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rauHPWAJl4

The last 2 give you an idea of 2 very different cars setup for 2 very different sports.......if the second cars setup was used for the GT5D I think people would quite rightly complain!
 
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GTP_Hyperspeed
As I said in my last post, I really like the physics :D

A short vid from earlier. :lol:


:)
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Well caught LOL

I've dug out a report from OPM (UK's Official Playstation magazine) it's part of a bit of a homage to GT funnily called "planet Turismo"......Anyway as part of the writeup the article writer "David Boddington" is treated to a bit of a track day by the GT PR team. On the day he first drives a GTR and is then thrown in the Demo's 370z....in the rain! Remeber this is real life car on a real life track...not in game....his words follow on the experience!

"Then we switched cars, gone was the gripy 4WD in favour of the terifyingly twitchy RWD 370z, gone to were the magical computer controled driving aids. It was a beast of a car and wholey unforgiving.
Turn ever so slightly too sharply you spin. Give it a tad too much throtle and you spin. Turn whilst breaking with another car bearing down on you with "certain death horror" writen on it, you spin......"

Seems the 370z is a little twitchy in the wet LOL

comedy tankslaper

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLwVMZ6XYrg
 
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Raitziger The cars in the videos are setup to drift......Yes there mostly stock but they are desighned predominatly with oversteer desighned into them, I drive a BMW 330 Msport, sticking the TC and SC into sport mode allows me to happily destroy my back tyres all day long. but with any of those cars stick the TC on (as it is in the GT5D) and forget it, it wont drift. To drift you need control, that control is gained through being able to precisley control the grip to the rear wheels, there spinning = less grip = drift, there not spining = more grip = not drifting. TC stops the rear wheels from spining thus stops you having the control you need to drift.

Here's the "tuned" 370z on the GT5D drifting.....note he's using R1 tyres which are super grippy but with the TC turned off (as you can with the tuned car) it is possible but not easy....again this is due to the setup of the car ie it's tuned for grip rather than oversteer and the R1 tyrea. But as you can see the physics engine allows you to drift, note his throttle "bliping" to control the grip at the rear and also he's using the "scandinavian flick" technique to shift the weight of the car before the drift. But once again trying this with TC on isn't drifting....it would be more a case of sliding! ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpbizFykfdc
 
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As talk about TC and GT5 demo, is there is there any TC when using wheel? I do not feel TC with turbo s wheel. All i feel is stock car spinning after any drift attempt :) I have to try game next with pad to see how that TC feels in the demo. Maybe it just that FFB engine is not spinning steering wheel fast enough for the moves like i those videos i posted.

I can drift in LFS,forza 3, Rfactor, real cars in snow and gravel (have not tried in tarmac :) )
 
The TC is there, though is reduced to level 7, what this dose in effect is shorten the range at which the TC works. I'll explain. if you hit the acelerator hard you'll overpower the TC, in effect turning it off. It dose however work when your at the edge of normal traction limits, killing the power to the rear wheels slightly to maintain grip, however at this point if you give it loads of gas it is overpowered........To drift you need to control the wheelspin on the edge of traction. TC on the untuned 370z dosn't allow this. you either have grip or you dont.
Right the pad and the wheel. You may find that TC is more obvious with the pad. This is because the pad offers less control imputs than a wheel and pedal setup so the PS3 steps in to compensate for this by "compensative control" try this test, first on the wheel then the pad. travel at 50mph into the first corner and turn in with full lock applied as quickly as possible. What you should see is the wheel will incure much more understeer than the pad as the PS3 is compensating for the pads less acurate control method.
Now before I'm hung drawn and quatered I'm not saying that driving with the pad requires any less skill.....far from it! And looking at the timetrial leaderboards theres no real advantage between pad and wheel when it comes to times. I prefare the wheel as I feel it's more involveing but thats a personal preferance
 
Just found a video on Youtube, looks pretty similar to the Time Trial in my opinion, maybe a little slower, different car as well, but the overall "feel" is quite close to what I get playing the demo, sounds just like a vacuum cleaner as well :) (one for the moaners)



Not how easy the back end got away from this guy....ring any bells ????
 
Even God can be struck down with oversteer!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XEqMGrha9w

What is really interesting though is with GT5's new level of physics coupled with the damage physics, pits and flag system this is going to be monumental online! 20 laps at spa in F40's anyone? Role on release!

Oh yeah and the demo file size is miniscule comaritivly speaking, I'm just wondering how many "suprises" Kaz has in store for us?

Questions though for another topic not this one.
 
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Well i can now catch 80% of slides and even drift a little with tuned car :)
All did was put TV on graphics mode (which has lowes input lag) Drifting also became more easy as put Porsche Turbo S to drift mode 1 (3 options). I have to say there is no TC in when using wheel, or it still seems like that to me.

I also tried with controller. I could catch 98% of slides but reason was found quickly; pad controls have medium level SMS on. Catching slides is one thing but making a fast time another with pad :D (i configured gas and brake to analog triggers)

Im also very confident that people will find good settings for drifting in tyre selection in game and FFB settings(and wheel settings like with fanatec wheel)
No46_TheDoctor
Not how easy the back end got away from this guy....ring any bells ????
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That is RR layout porsche so it does that kind of thing time to time. FR cars much easier to drive in real life.
 
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Before I can judge whether the physics are improved or not I need to test drive a FWD car, which we sadly don't have in the demo. I think the area that needs the most attention in Prologue is lift-off oversteer in FWD cars. But overall I can feel the tyre model is a little improved, which hopefully will solve this issue.
 
SuperCobraJet
Since there is 14 pages here and 14 pages of any mention of 350Z I was just wondering if anyone one that owns the car has commented on the physics.

I think I would be very dissapointed if I bought one and it drove that way.

I just tried it for a few laps and my initial impression is it is reminiscent of FM2.

I have been playing FM3 and am orientated to it's handling physics so that may account for the initial reaction.

I don't recall the handling physics in GT5P being like this Demo.
Guess I'll have to go spend some lap time with it maybe.
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As a matter of fact, I did own a 350z, and I did post about how it compares in this thread. Basically, in Prologue, the car handled at the limit comparably to how the car in real life handled under simple aggressive driving. In other words, in Prologue it was easier than real life.

I do not own a 370z, but this demo is really not leaps and bounds harder. I don't understand the fuss. I truly don't. The grass seems silly, and that's about it. I can go for laps without a mistake. Sure, they aren't fast laps but just like in real life, once you start pushing it, you're going to spin unless you know what you're doing.

If I'm in 2nd gear in the Z, half throttle at about 5k, through a slight bend, and I suddenly put my foot flat to the floor, what do you think happens? My Z had ~40 horsepower less, and ~20 fewer ft lb of torque, AND it was 100 pounds heavier than the 370.
 
No46_TheDoctor
Just found a video on Youtube, looks pretty similar to the Time Trial in my opinion (...)



Not how easy the back end got away from this guy....ring any bells ????
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The car in TT behaves in a similiar way which only proves that TTs model is rubbish. 997 is a rear-engine car which will always be tail end happy and 370Z shouldn't behave like that unless it's on a slippery surface.

Another proof it's not a real simulation.
 
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It is not quite clear where TT goes wrong. At least low angle drifts should be very easy to handle with FR sports cars in any surface. Most time i like new feeling of the car very much, but drifting physics are not right.
 
Raitziger
At least low angle drifts should be very easy to handle with FR sports cars in any surface.
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Um..? They are very easy to handle. Do you have your steering set to sim or pro with adequate FFB? The cars are very predictable and controllable. Maybe your inputs aren't smooth enough (braking inputs especially with the tuned car)?
 
Well it is quite easy to keep car smooth(catch small slides) , but i find drifting very difficult. I might still tame TT demo some day:
 

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