Dfp? G25?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo HD' started by JPBPoway, Dec 24, 2006.

  1. panjandrum

    panjandrum

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    I too am waiting to see how all of this plays-out. To be honest, I'm not in that big a hurry since I see the PS3 as overpriced anyway, and am not really interested in the PS3 except for GT5 (or, if developed, other racing sims).

    I am also looking at Forza 2 and the Microsoft wheel, but unfortunately I have a G25 and a DFP, so when added up it is still cheaper for me to go the PS3 route eventually.

    Too bad the XBox doesn't support the DFP and G25. My understanding is that it has USB ports, so all they games would really need would be a proper driver for these wheels.
     
  2. Diab

    Diab

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    I find this bit interesting:
    So is it a US only limitation or is it everywhere except Japan and the like?
     
  3. isamu

    isamu

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    If GT5 really does come out without FFB support, then I'm calling it right now....SONY AND POLYPHONY DIGITAL ARE FVCKED!!!

    Forza 2 *WILL be crowned the king of 'console sims' and I predict many people will scoop up 360s in favor of PS3s because of it....inluding gamers from Japan.

    I honestly thought Sony could not fvck themselves even more. If they honestly will remain stubborn and refuse to pay for the license of FFB/Rumble they will be on their death bed.

    I have a very honest question for you guys....

    Will you seriously buy Gran Turismo 5 if it actually does not support FFB? I know I won't.
     
  4. Jedi2016

    Jedi2016

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    I'm starting a new thread, this is rediculous.
     
  5. pimp racer

    pimp racer

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    Sorry to go OT but check this out, this thread made it to 1up.com somehow hehe.

    http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3156211

    Anyways back OnTopic - um.....yeah....I am "kinda" disappointed about no force feedback but could care less. :D......as long as GT5 lives up to the high expecatations we have such as damage and what not.
     
  6. pol37

    pol37

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  7. GTXLR

    GTXLR

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    Immersion sued SCE in the us, therefore it applies to that region. Immersion Hold patents in other regions also but as yet havent pursued any proceedings outside the U.S.
     
  8. Raitziger

    Raitziger

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  9. GTXLR

    GTXLR

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    Would assume its saying G25 can be used on the PS3,much the same as the DFP. Im sure need for speed carbon can make full use of the force feedback as well in the U.S.
    It would appear that the japanese market is not affected by the lack of force feedback in Sony produced titles as the U.S market is(although idlike to see further evidence of this to be 100% sure about this).
    Hopefully i wont have to worry either and feedback will make it into Sonys european releases also, as thus far immersion arent challenging SCEE! then ill just laugh out loud at all those who disbelieve that the lack of rumble and feedback in the U.S is nothing to do with Sonys legal wranglings with immersion in the American courts.
     
  10. isamu

    isamu

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    very VERY impressive find! This at least means they're still trying to get something resolved and may end up settling out a deal and that'll allow them to use the technology.

    Good job Pol37:tup:
     
  11. GTXLR

    GTXLR

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    heres some reading you might like to peruse: http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20...urdey_01.shtml http://www.businessweek.com/innovat...964.htm?chan=innovation_game+room_top+stories
    SCEA stubborn? Nah! watch out Nintendo!


    I put it to you that (imo) currently SCEJ with ps3 and GTHD is not infringing on any of immersions patents in japan, the fact that there is no rumble controller and no case pending, in which that was the only issue (I conceed on the Software!), The only reason U.S users are unable to use forcefeedback in the DFP and G25 in any of Sonys software in the U.S is because of the on going unsettled legal dispute, because immersion will not deal with SCEA unless they stop there appeals.
    This would explain the updates of the japanese version of GTHD: It removed access to feedback technology for Consoles which were made for the U.S. but still allows japenese consoles to access the feedback.
    The release of the original Demo hadnt made allowance that some u.s users would make Japan accounts and download the japenese Version of the demo, this was quickly realised and updated to prevent any users in the u.s from accessing the feedback in the japanese demo.
    So my fingers are crossed that the SCEJ situation will be the same siuation in europe.:sly:

    Lets hope for good news anyway on january 8th!
     
  12. pol37

    pol37

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    can you copy & paste those articles ... the link is dead
     
  13. GTXLR

    GTXLR

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    1,391
    Here u go. Cant copy businessweek text,(try google 'businessweek immersion touch sense technology sony ps3') it also makes interesting reading. i tried fixing the link.

    source gamersutra:
    In September of 2004, Immersion Corporation was awarded damages of approximately 90 million dollars in a lawsuit against Sony, who Immersion said made illegal use of its technologies. Immersion, which manufactures force-feedback and so-called “haptic” (engaging the user via the sense of touch) devices for a wide range of applications, is headed by Victor Viegas, who took some time to speak with Gamasutra about the lawsuit, and about Sony’s announcement that the PS3 would not contain rumble technology.

    As far as the ongoing litigation is concerned, Viegas is confident that the end result will be in his company’s favor.

    “We’ve already won,” he said. “In September the jury was unanimous in its defense of our actions.”

    In addition to the monetary damages awarded, Viegas said the other outcome of the 2004 verdict was an injunction that, if applied, would prohibit Sony from any production, manufacture, or sale of the related technologies in the United States. It is this injunction that Sony is currently attempting to appeal.

    “They’ve taken aggressive positions with the use of patents to try to invalidate our claims, and have argued that Immersion committed fraud,” Viegas said. “There’s been quite a lot of legal activity and a lot of unnecessary energy expended over this.”

    Previous lawsuits in which immersion has played a part include a settlement with Microsoft (who was originally named as a defendant in the same suit Sony is currently fighting) and Electrosource, the company which produces the Pelican brand of third-party controllers. Both of these companies have settled with Immersion, but Viegas says he sees no current indicators that Sony will follow suit.

    In addition to Immersion’s case against Sony itself, he says they have also filed a lawsuit against a Sony witness, who Viegas says appears to have been paid for testimony. As for Sony’s decision to not include haptic technology in their next-generation controllers, Viegas says he is skeptical of their proposed reasoning.

    The company announced in a press release that the PS3 controller would lack vibration due to the possibility of it interfering with the controller’s new tilt sensors, which Viegas feels is unlikely.

    “If what they’re saying is in fact the reason why [the controller will not have vibration], I’ve offered them numerous solutions to the problem,” Viegas said in an interview Tuesday. “I don’t believe it’s a very difficult problem to solve, and Immersion has experts that would be happy to solve that problem for them.”

    The solutions offered by Immersion, however, would hinge upon Sony’s acceptance of the current litigation, and no word has been given as to Sony’s plans on the matter. Viegas says that Immersion “would have no qualms helping Sony with their problem, if indeed it is a problem,” but the company would have to cease its appeal against the current injunction.

    Viegas is confident, however, that his company’s technology will be at home on video game systems in the future.

    “We feel haptic or vibration technology is quite possible in a next gen system,” he said. “It can provide greater fidelity, better effects, and a more complete sense of immersion, using a wired or wireless controller.”

    As far as Sony’s choice to remove vibration from their new console, he feels it goes against the ideas of improvement that are espoused by those entering the next-gen market.

    “When you think about the investments they’re making in improving graphics and sound, these are all meant to try to immerse you or put you in the middle of gameplay,” Viegas said. “So to take vibration out of a driving game or a first person shooting game, I can’t imagine how people will be able to view that as an advancement in gaming.”






    PlayStation 3: A "Step Backward?"



    Viegas also said that the responses he’s found on websites and in blogs seem to imply that gamers agree Sony has taken “a step backward” in its development of gaming by its removal of vibration technology.

    “From what I’ve read, people are not happy,” he said.

    Within his own company it seems, people are not happy with Sony’s decision either.

    “We had a lot of employees on the floor at E3, and many of them got to get their hands on the [Playstation 3] controller,” Viegas said. “They say it felt light, that it felt cheap and flimsy, and that it lacked weight or substance. Overall, they were disappointed.”

    Apparently, Immersion employees were not the only ones upset at the lack of haptic response in Sony’s new console.

    “I’ve spoken with a lot of developers, and apparently out of the early kits they were given to work with, at least a few of them contained vibration technology,” Viegas said. “When the announcement was made that the final product wouldn’t contain that technology, they were as shocked as everyone else.”

    Holding over 600 patents, Immersion is certainly not going to go out of business due to the fracas over the Sony suit, but Viegas said he’s hopeful it can be resolved in a fashion that allows players to experience the depth of immersion haptic technology can offer to a next-gen system.

    As for the rest of the next-gen consoles, Viegas said they have demonstrated their technology to Microsoft, and have no current plans to interact with Nintendo on its upcoming Wii console, nor do they have any plans to file future injunctions against Nintendo or any other company, yet.

    “We have officially stated we have not performed full analysis on Nintendo’s product so are not in a position to comment on the technology they are using,” Viegas said, adding “we’ll take a look at those.”

    In the meantime, Viegas said Immersion is hard at work on other haptic technologies that will be applied in a wide range of fields, from creating virtual environments for doctors and nurses to feedback units for automobiles and flat touchscreens. For Sony, however, the ball is in their court.

    “We have solutions we have perfected and demonstrated to Sony, contingent on their acceptance of our terms,” Viegas said. “All we can do now is wait and see.”

    http://www.businessweek.com/innovat...964.htm?chan=innovation_game+room_top+stories does this link work now? works for me.
     
  14. pol37

    pol37

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    ... of course, that's why you can get the GTHD version 1.16 in the japanese store and the U.S. store is still at version 1.00
     
  15. 2JZFAN

    2JZFAN

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    that's all speculation.. gamasutra has assumed this is the situation.. does it make sense? possibly.. has it been confirmed? hardly. it's a nice fluff piece but it just sides with all the other misinformation being spouted on the net regarding Sony and FFB.

    FFB is not RUMBLE.
     
  16. pol37

    pol37

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    that is very naive of you - to wait of "confirmation" ... I can not believe that you still not get it ... do you get paid from Sony to missinform us?
     
  17. Mt. Lynx

    Mt. Lynx Premium

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    How is waiting for confirmation naive? That is what I´ll do for sure. I´m in PAL country, and have a few months left before I can try the HD demo out. Until then, I have no actual way of knowing, since the bids here are, well, not on terms with eachother.
     
  18. pol37

    pol37

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    Its very simple - just look at this forum for example and read it well - than you will have a sort of confirmation - all this information here is gathered by a lot of people online and if you can add one plus one together you might come to a conclusion - I just think that a official confirmation is not very likely to get from either immersion or sony, because they tried to keep this lawsuite to a very low profile. There are a lot of gamesite which already picked up on this subject and raised concern about the lack of FF in GTHD in connection with the Immersion vs. Sony lawsuite, of course everybody is careful to make unjustified statements if they are in the gameing industry.
    Anyway before you spend $600 and additional $150 or more for a wheel make sure that you read between the lines, before you face the same frustration a lot of people have here.
     
  19. GTXLR

    GTXLR

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    1,391
    FFB is not rumble! we know! its an immersion patented tech though, Logitech are an immersion partner, DFP and G25 make us of feedback technolgy powered through Immersions patents.
    Did you read the business week article also?
    Most of it came from Immersion themselves, they flat out refuse to deal with SCEA unless Sony drop the appeals.
    (EA on the other hand are free to put immersion tech in their games,as you indicated elsewhere)
    If you wait for confirmation from Sony it will be to late.
    Just look at the reasons they give for the lack of rumble controller?
    Did you ever believe that was credible?
    Even SCEA spokesman dont give the proper information, they try to steer around the situation or pull the wool over your eyes.
    Sony's excuse (here in the uk at least) as to why there was no rumble in the controllers was originally that, 'rumble was for the last gen, we have a new technology which makes gaming much more immersive' only later did we hear 'oh its a technical issue'.
    Sony will never confirm the reason for its decision over this issue, the whole thing is really quite embarassing for them.

    The real issue is not to wait and see what happens, not to sit quietly in our homes happily playing games While Sony Stubbornly and steadfastly refuses to acknowledge that rumble and feedback are important in their next gen machine to gamers, your duty as the consumer is to demand more!

    Immersion is leading the way with new immersive gaming technology that Sony will not be able to make use of, of course it may not be worth it but that wont stop it being available on a xbox360.
    If Sony lose the next appeal, can or will they appeal again? will they have egg on the face, will they then go grovelling to immersion, I doubt that! where does that leave you?
    Definately still without rumble and probably without feedback In Sony Distributed games, until Sony find other solutions.

    p.s Nintendo is already being challenged in a patent Suit for one element of it's wii mote by interlink, dont be so sure that immersion wont look to them too!
     
  20. pol37

    pol37

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    @ GTXLR :tup:
     
  21. GTXLR

    GTXLR

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    1,391
    As a side issue the original judgement also sights infringement of SONY products which include Gran turismo.
    Its clear from this that Sony's own Distributed software was cited in this case, this shows that Even now due to the lack of New licensing while the appeal is ongoing, that none of Sonys own branded software would dare make use of any of Immersions patents including Force feedback.
    Again this only applies in America and applies to imports also. No wonder They are trying so hard to prevent imports, look at the action against liksang. This also enforcies the reason for updates to the japenese GTHD so it wont play on american PS3 with feedback, and adds more weight to the fact that either SCEJ has done a deal with immersion or the more probable being that immersion doesnt hold the necessary patents in Japan for force feedback,again just my speculation.

    any way read here taken form slashdot.

    IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

    IMMERSION CORPORATION, Plaintiff, v. SONY COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT AMERICA, INC., SONY COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT, INC., and MICROSOFT CORPORATION,
    Defendants.

    No. C 02-0710 CW

    ORDER ENTERING PERMANENT INJUNCTION AND GRANTING DEFENDANTS' MOTION TO STAY INJUNCTION PENDING APPEAL

    For the reasons set forth in its January 10, 2005 Order, and having entered judgment in favor of Plaintiff Immersion Corp. (Immersion), the Court hereby PERMANENTLY ENJOINS Defendants Sony Computer Entertainment America, Inc., (SCEA) and Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc., (SCEI) (collectively Sony) from manufacturing, using, and/or selling in, or importing into, the United States the infringing Sony Playstation system, including its Playstation consoles, Dualshock controllers, and those games found by the jury to infringe. [FN1: The jury found that the following games, in conjunction with the Playstation consoles and Dualshock controllers, infringed either the '213 patent, the '333 patent or both patents: A Bug's Life; Amplitude; Ape Escape; Atlantis: The Lost Empire; Bloody Roar 2; Cool Boarders 3; Cool Boarders 4; Cool Boarders 2001; Crash Bash; Crash Team Racing; Drakan: The Ancients' Gate; Emperor's New Groove; Extermination; FantaVision; Final Fantasy X; Formula One 2001; The Getaway; Gran Turismo; Gran Turismo 2; Gran Turismo 3; Grand Theft Auto: Vice City; Grand Theft Auto 3; Grind Session; ICO; Jak & Daxter; Kinetica; Kingdom Hearts; Legend of the Dragoon; The Mark of Kri; Medal of Honor Frontline; Medievil 2; Metal Gear Solid 2; Monster's, Inc.; Sly Cooper and the Thievius Racoonus; SOCOM Navy Seals; Speed Punks; Spyro: Ripto's Rage; Spyro: Year of the Dragon; Stuart Little 2; Syphon Filter 2; Syphon Filter 3; Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3; Twisted Metal: Black; Twisted Metal 4; Twisted Metal: Small Brawl; Treasure Planet; and War of the Monsters.] As described in the January 10 Order, no recall is required of products already sold, but Sony will pay a license fee on all products already placed in the stream of commerce.

    http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=143942&threshold=1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=12062450
     
  22. Mt. Lynx

    Mt. Lynx Premium

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    I should have been more clear. Either way, I will buy a PS3, and I will buy GT either way too, so I´ll just wait and see wether FFB and/or rumble is implemented. I have a DFP, but I´m thinking about getting a G25, but that´ll have to wait until I know for sure I´ll have any use of it.
    Right now, that looks a bit unlikely in the US, but being a PAL guy, I hold some hope.

    And Thank you to GTXLR for all the info!
     
  23. FMW

    FMW

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    I live right across the street from a EB in Southern California. They have a steady flow of PS3's now. My buddy just picked on up tonight and loves it. Myself on the otherhand would love to just snap one up and play the GTHD demo to death, but this whole thing with no FF is just killing me. I don't know about you guys, but do you guys think the game will be all that it can be without this tried and true feature? I'm sure the physics, gameplay and features will be great, but NO FF is so hurting. I just jumped into GT 4 and turned off FF and.........................Hurting...Not the same Just my two cents. Not sure if everyone will miss is as much as I will.

    BTW I play GT4 with a wheel (Logitech G25) And yes, it's all that and a bag of chips. I might be in the minority that plays this with a G25, but I highly reccomend it.

    I wonder when the Appeal that Sony filed will be heard???????
     
  24. FoolKiller

    FoolKiller Premium

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    Until two weeks ago I had only ever played with a DS2 on a PS2 that, for some reason, had the rumble quit working long ago. I was playing without any rumble, much less FF. Now I have a DFP and it is incredible and adds so much, but the fact is many people loved the game long before they had any kind of steering wheel.

    For some it will ruin it, but for myself I will still have a working steering wheel on what I expect to be an incredible game.

    To discuss this more in-depth I suggest going to this thread:
    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=89986
     
  25. pol37

    pol37

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  26. Hodri

    Hodri

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    Well, if you didn't bought one so far, you may better go with a Japanese PS3. The only problem you 'll have is, that it won't play U.S. PS1/PS2 games and U.S. DVD's.
     
  27. FMW

    FMW

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    Location:
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    Thanks Pole.

    I would be truly amazed if they won their apeal. It would be interesting to see how things develop. Keep the community posted :tup:
     
  28. GTXLR

    GTXLR

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    1,391
    This is probably the immersion patent that is preventing U.S users experiencing force feedback in their Logitech wheels.

    This patent mostly applies to wheels themselves, yet I guess some of the finer points on the control could well have consequences, in much the same way the original patent case against rumble tech in the dualshock also cited Sony Software that made use of the tech.

    But hell, Im not a patent lawyer!

    Here you go!
    http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/6104158

    Edit, Immersion also have sveral patents for controller chips built into Logitech wheels and other devices and the methodology behind such controller chips, i believe that Immersion must also have some restriction on the use of code to make use of these controller chips that applies the feedback and would assume that thas is done through licensing.i guess that would be dealt with in IP law but may also be affected in some way buy one of Immersions many Patents in this field.

    Edit2: this could well be the offending patent!!
    http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph...mersion.ASNM.&OS=AN/immersion&RS=AN/immersion

    It seems immersion have pretty much tied down this whole area, so alternatives for Sony and PD are very limited!
    Anyone no if there are any feedback wheels manufactured that dont use immersion tech and dont infringe immersion patents??

    Unless Sony win Over this case, i cant see them eating humble pie and going to Immersion for the rights to use its FF tech!!
    Start making noise now GT'rs You need Sony to listen to your needs.
    Or will Kaz demand Sony sell off PD and GT franchise so he can get licensing with a third party (maybe not so crazy, Sony really could do with the money!),or he walks! or maybe he could buy pd out himself! is he that rich and devoted.

    I have everything crossed that this scenario isnt going to be the same here in the U.K!!!!
     
  29. TigJackson

    TigJackson

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    Actually, I believe that the U.S. District Court entered judgment in favor of Immersion Corp. against Sony (SCEA & SCEI) on Immersion's claims of infringement of U.S. Patents Nos. 6,275,213 and 6,424,333:

    http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/6275213
    Patent No. 6,275,213: Tactile feedback man-machine interface device
    Abstract
    A man-machine interface which provides tactile feedback to various sensing body parts is disclosed. The device employs one or more vibrotactile units, where each unit comprises a mass and a mass-moving actuator. As the mass is accelerated by the mass-moving actuator, the entire vibrotactile unit vibrates. Thus, the vibrotactile unit transmits a vibratory stimulus to the sensing body part to which it is affixed. The vibrotactile unit may be used in conjunction with a spatial placement sensing device which measures the spatial placement of a measured body part. A computing device uses the spatial placement of the measured body part to determine the desired vibratory stimulus to be provided by the vibrotactile unit. In this manner, the computing device may control the level of vibratory feedback perceived by the corresponding sensing body part in response to the motion of the measured body part. The sensing body part and the measured body part may be separate or the same body part.

    http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/6424333
    Patent No. 6,424,333: Tactile feedback man-machine interface device
    Abstract
    A man-machine interface which provides tactile feedback to various sensing body parts is disclosed. The device employs one or more vibrotactile units, where each unit comprises a mass and a mass-moving actuator. As the mass is accelerated by the mass-moving actuator, the entire vibrotactile unit vibrates. Thus, the vibrotactile unit transmits a vibratory stimulus to the sensing body part to which it is affixed. The vibrotactile unit may be used in conjunction with a spatial placement sensing device which measures the spatial placement of a measured body part. A computing device uses the spatial placement of the measured body part to determine the desired vibratory stimulus to be provided by the vibrotactile unit. In this manner, the computing device may control the level of vibratory feedback perceived by the corresponding sensing body part in response to the motion of the measured body part. The sensing body part and the measured body part may be separate or the same body part.

    The abstract in each appears to be about the same, but what the heck, I also am not a patent lawyer and this is an explanation contained in this second document:

    Parent Case Text

    This is a continuation application of prior U.S. application Ser. No. 09/561,782, filed on May 1, 2000 now U.S. Pat. No. 6,275,213, in the name of Marc Tremblay, et al., which is a continuation of prior U.S. patent application Ser. No. 09/066,608, filed on Apr. 24, 1998 now U.S. Pat. No. 6,088,017, which is a continuation of U.S. patent application Ser. No. 08/565,102, filed Nov. 30, 1995, abandoned; and all of which are incorporated herein by reference.
     
  30. GTXLR

    GTXLR

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    1,391
    ^^ those are the patents that are applicable to the rumble in dualshock controller and are relevant to that particular case.

    The Patents i listed are more to do with why Sony/PD, who now have no agreements with immersion, cant make use of the Immersion controlled feedback in the logitech wheels on GTHD or any other sony produced title.