Did PD go too far with the G25 power shift nerf?

104
Ferrari_Tifoso, GTP_Ferrari_Fan
I think so. I'm not saying that allowing people to shift flat footed is fair, but now it's so damn hard to get through a race without having the damn thing go into neutral several times. Either because you don't lift enough off the throttle, or because you have a tiny bit of wheel spin when you shift. You pretty much have to give up being competitive if you want to use the clutch.

I think a better solution would've been the option of mapping a clutch button to the controller and other wheels. Now you can allow all players to shift even when the drive wheels are spinning. Next reduce the requirement of how far you have to lift off the throttle before you're allowed to shift, from the current 75% to just 50% off the throttle. Hopefully by the time GT5 comes out they'll have this sorted out.
 
Best solution would be include mechanical damage/wear and give flat shifting (and shifting at all during wheelspin) back. Make flat shifting a damage risk like in real life.
 
Yeah when PD will implement damage I bet it will be something like Viper has mentioned.
As well they need to put Clutch Pressure as well. It only works as an ON OFF button.. I don't mind it, better then not having clutch at all, but more realistic is always better.
 
yes i experience the same problem and in the beginning i thought my G25 was faulty because of that.

Last night in the RX8 Race 3 times in one race it happened that i hit neutral and lost at least 0.4 tenth cause of that.

I hope the fix that

Chris
 
Oh c'mon. It really ain't that hard... I can shift very quickly with 2 or 3 misshifts in a 5 lap race. And I'm sure I'm not that good even.
 
I'm not actually sure. It helps sometimes but is a shambles the rest of the time.
Downshifting is the hardest. But just make sure you lift clutch every time you downshift and things will go smoothly.
And off the line I'm so much faster then most of the others, thanks to the G25 :)
 
G25 clutch is whack period. What car has a 1mm pressure point? (its not an on/off switch BTW) Im saving my shifter until full game comes out anyways, I am sure it would break before then If I used H shifter and clutch all the time.
 
I think so. I'm not saying that allowing people to shift flat footed is fair, but now it's so damn hard to get through a race without having the damn thing go into neutral several times. Either because you don't lift enough off the throttle, or because you have a tiny bit of wheel spin when you shift. You pretty much have to give up being competitive if you want to use the clutch.

Not for me i use the clutch all the time. I dont have any problems when im online with the clutch 👍
 
I don't know what kind of magical manual transmissions you've all used in real life or what kind of super pro drivers some of you are but in my world, every transmission feels different, every clutch feels different and every manual transmission vehicle I've ever driven has required a certain level of adaptation from my side in order to correctly navigate the gears and properly drive the vehicle. I've personally experienced a few handfuls of different vehicles and transmissions.

Using the G25 is no different. Either you adapt and succeed or fail and claim that something's broken...or actually break something. I find people are WAY too rough with shifting inputs, both in GT5p and in real life. I can't for the life of me understand why some folks have to literally throw the shifter through the gears.

The only thing broken is people's ability to adapt. We all know the G25 isn't perfect; it's a piece of plastic trying to represent a 6spd manual transmission. Keep that in mind and adapt to that fact.

I've got no problem using the G25 for manual shifting w/clutch. Save for the odd 'it's only a toy' error, it actually feels ALOT tighter and more responsive than my Jeep TJ.

Now, that said, I can't wait for a clutch/shifter setup that incorporates FF. It really is lacking and could potentially help rookie drivers understand the feeling of mangling syncros.


Even with the 'power shift nerf', a good driver will be faster using the g25+clutch. Hence all the 'G25 clutch not allowed' rules.

I believe they 'nerfed' it in lieu of transmission parts all over the track.
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdGoFhs1pf4

Shifting like this in GT5P will get you nowhere. This video also points out another flaw. This guy heel-and-toeing like crazy. Can you imagine how much slower that lap would've been if he had just been straight braking without rev-matching? Not to mention how unstable the car would've been with all the violent jerking. Probably would've ended up in the guard rail. But in GT5P people get away with this all the time. In fact I think it's safe to say you turn a faster lap just braking and clutching in than actually heel-and-toeing.
 
I'll bet 75%+ of people driving GT5p cannot even dream of operating a transmission like in that vid.

Hopefully the transmission coding for GT5 will provide the ability to be faster using the techniques shown in that vid, but if it's easily exploitable and unrealistic (like it was before PD 'nerfed' it) I say leave it out.

Actually, leave it out completely until parts can be damaged and cars retired.

Great video though.
 
I don't know what kind of magical manual transmissions you've all used in real life or what kind of super pro drivers some of you are but in my world, every transmission feels different, every clutch feels different and every manual transmission vehicle I've ever driven has required a certain level of adaptation from my side in order to correctly navigate the gears and properly drive the vehicle. I've personally experienced a few handfuls of different vehicles and transmissions.

Using the G25 is no different. Either you adapt and succeed or fail and claim that something's broken...or actually break something. I find people are WAY too rough with shifting inputs, both in GT5p and in real life. I can't for the life of me understand why some folks have to literally throw the shifter through the gears.

The only thing broken is people's ability to adapt. We all know the G25 isn't perfect; it's a piece of plastic trying to represent a 6spd manual transmission. Keep that in mind and adapt to that fact.

I've got no problem using the G25 for manual shifting w/clutch. Save for the odd 'it's only a toy' error, it actually feels ALOT tighter and more responsive than my Jeep TJ.

Now, that said, I can't wait for a clutch/shifter setup that incorporates FF. It really is lacking and could potentially help rookie drivers understand the feeling of mangling syncros.


Even with the 'power shift nerf', a good driver will be faster using the g25+clutch. Hence all the 'G25 clutch not allowed' rules.

I believe they 'nerfed' it in lieu of transmission parts all over the track.

👍 you couldnt say that any better I have no problem with the G25 clutch You just have to get use to it. Im glad there is no powershifting, because there is no damage. I have driven manual all my life, and i never stayed on the gas while shifting, or maybe im not saying it right. Anywayz I love the clutch and i will agree with you on one thing most of the competions dont allow you to use cluch which IMO is WACK. I think to myself all the time " dang i bought a G25 so i could get the a better experience with GT5P but no one allows the use of clutch during these competions" :indiff:. Anyways Nice post
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdGoFhs1pf4

Shifting like this in GT5P will get you nowhere. This video also points out another flaw. This guy heel-and-toeing like crazy. Can you imagine how much slower that lap would've been if he had just been straight braking without rev-matching? Not to mention how unstable the car would've been with all the violent jerking. Probably would've ended up in the guard rail. But in GT5P people get away with this all the time. In fact I think it's safe to say you turn a faster lap just braking and clutching in than actually heel-and-toeing.

Another good post. GAN SAN is a beast nice video BTW. You hit it right on the nail i could only dream of KAZ making you have to control a car like that in GT. Some people have no clue on how really hard it is to keep a car balance. Nice post


I'll bet 75%+ of people driving GT5p cannot even dream of operating a transmission like in that vid.

HAHAHAH Ima say about 90%
 
I'll bet 75%+ of people driving GT5p cannot even dream of operating a transmission like in that vid.

Hopefully the transmission coding for GT5 will provide the ability to be faster using the techniques shown in that vid, but if it's easily exploitable and unrealistic (like it was before PD 'nerfed' it) I say leave it out.

Actually, leave it out completely until parts can be damaged and cars retired.

Great video though.

Fair point, especially considering most pedals out there aren't set up for proper heel and toeing. Still my main gripe is not being to upshift even if you have the slightest amount of wheels spin. And the penalty doesn't justify the crime. I've certainly hit a few walls thanks to my car suddenly being forced into neutral. It's especially worst when you're behind someone, and your going in out of the slipstream, and suddenly your in Neutral, your car effectively becomes a fish out of water... hello wall.
 
Private rooms,thats the answer when talking about disadvantage.Its only when racing against others with no clutch.When I can create a race with clutch only,my answers has been replyed.Doesnt mather if that rev-matching is still there,makes it just a little bit harder,fine with me.When races against other clutch users are on,I think the real competition of the 'best driver' begins.So much more car handling involved then.
 
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Is it just me, or has anyone noticed that some cars are easier to shift then others? One thing I wish they would fix is the idle while the clutch is on. It reminds me of riding a golf cart, you know, only on when your foot is on the go pedal. That and a little throw in the clutch pedal would be nice. I know I'm not a developer but, you would think that it won't be too much trouble to incorporate these little things.
 
Fair point, especially considering most pedals out there aren't set up for proper heel and toeing. Still my main gripe is not being to upshift even if you have the slightest amount of wheels spin. And the penalty doesn't justify the crime. I've certainly hit a few walls thanks to my car suddenly being forced into neutral. It's especially worst when you're behind someone, and your going in out of the slipstream, and suddenly your in Neutral, your car effectively becomes a fish out of water... hello wall.

I find when something like that happens your best course of action is to focus on your speed and where you are on the road. Once those two things are under control pick your proper gear and continue on.

The key here is to take a long breath and react with some poise instead of continually trying to jam the car into gear, screaming out FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU over 9000 times.

Precision defeats speed in the matter of shifting a G25 while using the clutch.


TofuStoreDrift: Cars with gobs of grip-breaking torque can be a little more difficult to shift with, thanks to that 'feature' where you sometimes can't put the car into gear if you're spinning the wheels in a high rpm range. It'd be great if there was a virtual key on the G25 somewhere, even a button for pretending would help.
 
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I don't think adding damage to prevent people from abusing the clutch system is the right way to go. Of course I want all sorts of damage (engine blow ups, broken suspensions, etc.), but in order to prevent clutch spamming it will only work... or should only work on cars with stock organic clutches. When the full game comes with race cars that have iron, kevlar, and carbon clutches it won't work. These clutches can take a pounding, as demonstrated here by Mr. Hans Stuck. And I for one definitely want to be able to drive this hard in GT5, without the thing going into N because you have 0.001% wheel spin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV5EcSlBhqc

That's why I think giving all players, regardless of whether they are using the controller or a clutchless wheel (DFP, DFGT, etc.), the chance to have faster upshifts is a better solution than damage alone. If you force players to go through an extra motion to upshift, instead of just hitting one button while staying flat, is a better way to balance out any advantages/disadvantages among the wheels/controllers, than just handicapping the clutch wheels.

The clutch wheels players already have to go through this extra motion to achieve faster upshifts. With the controller you can make the upshift/downshift buttons clutches as well. So when you want to upshift you would have lift off the throttle button (usually R2) before you tap the upshift/clutch button (X for me), then you can get back on the throttle button. Similar deal with the clutchless wheels, except you would have to lift off the throttle pedal when you hit the upsfhit paddle/stick. I think this is a very intuitive way to play the game, and can be done very quickly to achieve faster upshifts. Just pick up your controller/wheel, pretend you're playing GT and try it. You'll see what I mean.

Now PD can let everyone upshift regardless of how much wheel spin they have, and give clutch-wheel players more leeway with how far they have to lift off the throttle before they can upshift. For drifting PD should just allow flat out power shifting and clutch kicking. Give controller and clutchless wheel players a separate clutch only button so they can clutch kick also.
 
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I don't think adding damage to prevent people from abusing the clutch system is the right way to go. Of course I want all sorts of damage (engine blow ups, broken suspensions, etc.), but in order to prevent clutch spamming it will only work... or should only work on cars with stock organic clutches. When the full game comes with race cars that have iron, kevlar, and carbon clutches it won't work. These clutches can take a pounding, as demonstrated here by Mr. Hans Stuck. And I for one definitely want to be able to drive this hard in GT5, without the thing going into N because you have 0.001% wheel spin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV5EcSlBhqc



When I mean damage I am mostly talking drivetrain and not just the clutch, flat shifting is likely to break gears, diff and shafts, clutches usually slip and overheat not just suddenly fail.

That video you provided was not flatshifting so it had no relevance, he was rev matching.
 
When I mean damage I am mostly talking drivetrain and not just the clutch, flat shifting is likely to break gears, diff and shafts, clutches usually slip and overheat not just suddenly fail.

That video you provided was not flatshifting so it had no relevance, he was rev matching.

I agree. I'm talking about just really aggressively up shifting a stock car with a delicate organic clutch. Flat shifting should just flat out wreck your car. Stock cars should have a lower threshold of how aggressive you can drive them before stuff starts breaking, slipping, fading, etc., than a race car. PD obviously wants us drive these cars like you would on a real track, and I think damage is a better alternative to force people to ease up on their shifting than suddenly and inexplicably putting the transmission into neutral. But that won't work so well on race cars since they can take a pounding. So giving everyone the chance to upshift quickly, along with damage is the best alternative IMO.
 
Yes they went too far because they really screwed the people like myself who LOVE drifting. There are MANY times where turns could warrant an UPSHIFT a gear durring a drift (wheel spin). I can get through many/most races without a miss-shift, but because i adapted. But i always feel bad, and kind of embarrassed at the game when friends/new people play who drive manual cars EVERYDAY and they are missing gears left and right. It's just utterly retarded how they could do that. People payed up to 300.00 for a wheel they can't get the full potential out of. If PD does NOT fix this ridiculous limitation by the time the full game comes out, i will definately boycott the game. For now i get my Drift fix from Live for Speed.

PD Should put a limitation on gear shifts where ZERO throttle is lifted (power-shifting) or IMPLEMENT engine/drive-train Damage like Forza Motorsports has. But don't throw in a Ridiculous Neutral lock, it takes away from the whole experience. :grumpy:

I've NEVER had a problem down-shifting and heel-toeing. It's just the up-shifts durring races (if i'm not carefull) and durring Drifting i have a problem.
 
Something intersting that is very relevant to this thread. Perhaps some of you are not familiar with the latest gen Chevy Cobalt SS? Starting in 2008 these cars have a specific feature that maintains boost if you do a no lift shift up near redline. It is really really slick, and it won't break the tranny. Now of course it puts more strain on parts, but it is designed for it. So some cars can handle it and even maintain their warranty lol.
But it is silly how you get thrown into neutral if the wheels are spinning before you shift with the G25. In real life the tires would stop spinning when the clutch is disengaged anyway.
 
I agree. I'm talking about just really aggressively up shifting a stock car with a delicate organic clutch. Flat shifting should just flat out wreck your car. Stock cars should have a lower threshold of how aggressive you can drive them before stuff starts breaking, slipping, fading, etc., than a race car. PD obviously wants us drive these cars like you would on a real track, and I think damage is a better alternative to force people to ease up on their shifting than suddenly and inexplicably putting the transmission into neutral. But that won't work so well on race cars since they can take a pounding. So giving everyone the chance to upshift quickly, along with damage is the best alternative IMO.


Yeah, slipping into neutral would be better for many race cars as they don't have syncros so holding the throttle down in them will yeild a lot of grinding, maybe a bit of a grind sound when it happens will let people know why it went to neutral.
 
I'm sorry, if I apply light pressure to the gear shifter in a real car and then depress the clutch pedal, the shifter falls out of gear, past neutral and into the next gear as the clutch is completely depressed. What in blue blazes does throttle position have to do with gear changing? Why in PD's name should anyone be penalized with a neutral lockout because they shift this way? Why does there need to be a consequence for retaining any amount of throttle during a up-shift?

I've been in a less than sporty Ford Festiva (89) and when I would shift in this manner, the cluth would drag down the RPMs as the next gear up was engaged. My 95 Honda Civic had this same problem but was less pronounced and a subtle chirp could be obtained during the 1~2 shift. 2004 RSX Type S... it would squeel second, chirp third, and on cold tires would slip on the 3~4 shift. All of these are examples of cars with different clutches. I was never once blasted with a neutral lock out. Was there someone whining about getting beat with 'power shifting'? Isn't that what they are doing with the controller..wide open throttle while pushing a button for the next gear? If they're not penalized with a retarded moment of failure, why are the ones with an actual clutch being treated this way?

There's a line of questions that will never be addressed by Polyphony Digital or Sony.
 
I'm sorry, if I apply light pressure to the gear shifter in a real car and then depress the clutch pedal, the shifter falls out of gear, past neutral and into the next gear as the clutch is completely depressed. What in blue blazes does throttle position have to do with gear changing? Why in PD's name should anyone be penalized with a neutral lockout because they shift this way? Why does there need to be a consequence for retaining any amount of throttle during a up-shift?

I've been in a less than sporty Ford Festiva (89) and when I would shift in this manner, the cluth would drag down the RPMs as the next gear up was engaged. My 95 Honda Civic had this same problem but was less pronounced and a subtle chirp could be obtained during the 1~2 shift. 2004 RSX Type S... it would squeel second, chirp third, and on cold tires would slip on the 3~4 shift. All of these are examples of cars with different clutches. I was never once blasted with a neutral lock out. Was there someone whining about getting beat with 'power shifting'? Isn't that what they are doing with the controller..wide open throttle while pushing a button for the next gear? If they're not penalized with a retarded moment of failure, why are the ones with an actual clutch being treated this way?

There's a line of questions that will never be addressed by Polyphony Digital or Sony.
The difference is, with the controller it takes longer to shift, much like when using paddle shifters vs. a clutch.
 
The difference is, with the controller it takes longer to shift, much like when using paddle shifters vs. a clutch.

I believe you are correct, with the controller, even staying on FULL THROTTLE and just up-shifting, there is a delay in the gear change and power-delivery. With the G25 there is no lag/delay in engine rpm/power so it was giving people who were "power-shifting" an advantage. I say too bad, people paying that much shouldn't be limited to what their hardware is capable of doing because the programmers couldn't figure out the correct coding for DS3 users. :irked:🤬
 
When you shift a manual car in IRL you have to come of the gas Im not talking about full race cars with transmission upgrades etc. This is why when using a controller you see that pause while shifting. I have a G25 its the same thing just come off the gas and shift fast as heck. when i drive againts people online i still have the advantage over who use controllers because with a G25 you can shift faster then contoller users or people with no clutch. I drove a manual transmison all my life and never stayed on the throttle and shift at the same time and when i did do that (drag racing friends) all i heard was GRRRRRRRindddd :lol: Im sure when GT5 comes out there will be transmission upgrades that will help shifting ;)
 
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