Difficult Car Spotlight - Lancia Stratos

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by XS, Mar 1, 2014.

  1. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,646
    @XS, Got the 500PP here :D This one is a TURBO beast with over 350HP, but still can be driven well on comfort soft :O

    Lancia Stratos TURBO HF Stradale 500PP version

    Lancia Stratos TURBO HF Stradale - special build at 500PP
    Comfort Soft to Sports Soft




    CAR : LANCIA STRATOS '73
    Tire : Comfort Soft to Sports Soft


    Specs
    Horsepower: 363 HP / 368 PS at 7800 RPM
    Torque : 265.8 ft-lb at 5800 RPM
    Power Limiter at : 100%
    Weight: 980 kg
    Ballast : 99 kg
    Ballast Position : -48
    Weight Distribution : 46 / 54 - as in real life street version spec.
    Performance Points: 500

    GT AUTO
    Oil change
    Improve Body Rigidity ( NOT INSTALLED ) - OPTIONAL - I have one built with this installed - works great on ABS 0.
    Aero Kits Type A
    Rear Wing - NO WING
    Other Part A ( lights )
    Wheels : Standard Size - PDI P525N in GT6 Matte 018
    Car Paint : GT6 Metallic 012 Anniversary Deep Blue


    Tuning Parts Installed :
    Engine Tuning Stage 1
    Sports Computer
    Racing Exhaust
    Isometric Exhaust Manifold
    Intake Tuning
    High RPM Range Turbo Kit
    Catalytic Converter Sports
    Racing Brakes Kit
    Twin Plate Clutch
    Fully Customizable Dog Clutch Transmission
    Adjustable LSD
    Fully Customizable Suspension
    Weigh Reduction Stage 2
    Window Weight Reduction



    Suspension - Gr4 Eibach ERS Springs and Bilstein Damper Coilover Kit ( 450/475 )
    Front, Rear

    Ride Height: 120 120
    Spring Rate: 8.00 8.48
    Dampers (Compression): 6 7
    Dampers (Extension): 6 6
    Anti-Roll Bars: 6 4
    Camber Angle: 0.0 0.0
    Toe Angle: 0.10 0.15

    Alternative suspension setup for bumpy track :

    Ride Height: 130 130
    Spring Rate: 8.00 8.48
    Dampers (Compression): 6 4
    Dampers (Extension): 6 3
    Anti-Roll Bars: 6 4
    Camber Angle: 0.0 0.0
    Toe Angle: 0.10 0.15


    LSD - 2 way ZF Plate based LSD low lock, medium preload
    Initial Torque : 16
    Acceleration Sensitivity: 24
    Braking Sensitivity: 24 -increase to 30/37 to reduce brake lift off oversteer if necessary.


    DOG CLUTCH TRANSMISSION - Gr4 Rally Gearset with stock Final Gear
    Install all power parts
    Set Default
    Set Auto Max Speed to 260kmh / 162mph
    Adjust each gear :
    1st 3.143
    2nd 2.240
    3rd 1.762
    4th 1.417
    5th 1.154
    Set Final : 3.824 or 2.824 for top speed / track with long straight ( Adjust final according to track if necessary )


    Brake Balance:
    7/5 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 5/3, for ABS 1 - feel free to use your preferred brake balance.

    Recommended setting for DS3 user :

    Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 7/5 brake balance as starting point.





    Notes :
    I have this Stratos since release day, used often on cruise lobby online on lesser state of tune. I decided to tune up to 500PP. The weight kept at stock level, with weight distribution fixed to replicate real life car spec ( HF Stradale ). I removed the rear spoiler and installed rally style front lights :D

    Using Gr4 spec suspension, LSD and gearing. Suspension comes from Eibach Gr 4 ERS springs, Bilstein Damper with conservative 450/475 spring rate, while LSD from Gr 4 ZF plate based LSD with max lock set at 40%. For gearing, I used Gr 4 Stratos HF Rally close ratio gearset to make sure the engine stays on the sweet spot range.

    With the tune, this Stratos Turbo HF Stradale works on comfort soft and below if you are a throttle master ;), all sports tire and also has been tested on racing hard with good result. Minor differences with the 450PP, the front ARB has been increased, higher rear toe in for better traction/stability. LSD initial torque has been adjusted to reflect the higher engine torque. Turbo kit has been installed, giving much higher torque and peak HP. Final gear 2.824 is highly recommended for high speed tracks like Nordschleife.

    Tuned and tested at Tsukuba, Bathurst, Big Willow, Nurb GP/F and Nordschleife :D The car is pretty stable, with good rotation, always brake smoothly, apply a bit of throttle when lifting the brakes to avoid excessive rotation. When the car pushes/understeer, reduce throttle - do not lift off all of a sudden, modulate at around 50%, this will make the car rotate smoothly. And lastly, do not jerk the steering when on a curve or driving at high speed, the car do not like rough steering input :)

    ENJOY :cheers:
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2014
  2. rams1de

    rams1de

    Messages:
    451
    I've given all 450pp cars a run of at least 5 laps at Trial Mountain, a few more for the last two which proved a bit tricky for my standard of driving.

    @praiano63 1:38.717 SH, (1:34.070 SS)

    Stable car that can be pushed harder than I expected of MR.
    Feel the weight shift on elevation and camber changes but car settles well with more grip than you'd expect. Stable under braking, feel the tyres washing out under hard braking
    General feel of understeer on entry and mid corner but the car be thrown in hard and will maintain grip.
    Got quicker with each lap as I adjusted my line and not yet found the limits of the car.


    @DolHaus 1:35.687 SS

    Good acceleration and exit speed, feels fast.
    Unstable under braking and on elevation/camber changes meant I had to 'pick' my way through the two chicanes losing time. Transmission hit rev limiter coming out of
    2nd tunnel just when catching Praiano's ghost.
    Good mid corner rotation and plenty of grip on exit and the car could be much quicker with more braking stability. Not quite stable enough for me to run consistent lap times


    @Jakedog23 1:39.610 SH, (1:33.837 SS)

    Good top speed and controllable BLOR
    Suffers a little from mid corner understeer, front outside tyre overheats easily on entry to first downhill left hander after second tunnel. Easily thrown off balance on elevation and camber changes.
    Overall quite stable with fairly consistent lap times


    @xande1959 1:40.951 SH, (1:36.345 SS)

    I was warned, it really is a test of patience
    Managed one clean lap out of 9 before giving up. The rear breaks out easily when off throttle and through the elevation and camber changes leading into the first tunnel. Once it started to go I just couldn't save it.
    However, it could carry good speed through the chicane - turns 10-12.

    @Ridox2JZGTE 1:40.204 SH, (1:36.490 SS)

    Retains much of the stock characteristics, requiring straight line braking and precise throttle control when cornering.

    Quite stable with all four wheels on the tarmac but easily unsettled when taking any of the kerb. BLOR a little severe and I found trail braking suicidal (the tuner notes did warn tbf) Good rotation mid corner but couldn't gas it soon enough on exit to keep up with ghost car. Hitting the rev limiter soon after exit from second tunnel also hurt lap time.
    Fun car, I didn't think it suited Trial Mountain and wouldn't fancy it round Nordschleife (I know, chicken)
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
  3. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,646
    Thanks for the review :) BLOR can be easily reduced with higher braking sensitivity of the LSD at around 30 to 37, but this will increase tendency to push on entry. To avoid hitting rev limiter on top gear, you can adjust the final to increase top speed according to the track. If you wanted easier exit ( early throttle ), adjust the rear damper to compression/extension 4/3 or 5/4.

    This will make the rear damper softer, and improve traction, but I would suggest to use this on high grip tire like sports hard and above :)

    For Trial Mountain, as it has lots of elevation changes and bumps, I would highly suggest to increase ride height to 130/130 or 140/140. Of course you can also use the ride height trick ( don't personally use it ), like 2 of the tunes posted here. Use high rear low front to reduce oversteer, something like 120/150 or 110/160:lol: :cheers:
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2014
  4. xande1959

    xande1959

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    1,399
    Location:
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    @rams1de at trial went really well but not in rome best lap 1:19. ***, thanks for brows my car:cheers:
     
  5. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Location:
    England
    Thank you for your test, surprised it hit the limiter though, you must be carrying a lot more speed than me into the back straight but its good to know so I can make future adjustments
     
  6. TurnLeft

    TurnLeft

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    Location:
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    @xande1959 and @Ridox2JZGTE
    I'll be reviewing your cars soon, sorry that it wasn't done sooner but the new seasonal's popped up and I've been busy tuning them. I'll also have to find you two your own Statler and Waldorf pictures. Can't wait to try them, oh by the way are they insured?
     
  7. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Mine came back with a suspicious stain on the drivers seat
     
    Ronald6, XS and TurnLeft like this.
  8. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    11,646
    Better prepare for large insurance claim :lol: I hope you will drive both version :) I have added more details on the tune to make them similar to the tunes on my garage.
     
    TurnLeft and xande1959 like this.
  9. Jakedog23

    Jakedog23

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    Very surprised by my results on SS I actually beat everyone for fastest time on those tires, even with the best tuner (Praiano63) in the field.
     
  10. krenkme

    krenkme

    Messages:
    4,076
    Location:
    United States
    "Lime"
    Based on the Lancia Stratos '73

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    253bhp
    450pp
    weight 980 Kg

    parts
    Oil Change
    PDI P525N wheels painted GT Japanese 010-W
    Paint - Verde Meta
    Sport Hard Tires
    Hight Adjustable/Fully Adjustable Suspension
    Racing Brakes
    Fully Custom Transmission
    Fully Custom Mechanical LSD
    Triple Plate Clutch
    Stage 3 Engine
    Sports Computer
    Catalytic Converter: Sports
    Stage 3 weight Reduction

    ABS = 1
    everything else off

    Tune
    Ride Hight - Front: 90 Rear: 130
    Spring Rate- Front: 5.00 Rear: 10.00
    Compression- Front: 6 Rear: 3
    Extension- Front: 5 Rear: 7
    Anti-roll Bars- Front: 3 Rear: 5
    Camber- Front: 0.0 Rear: 0.0
    Toe Angle- Front: -0.25 Rear: 0.25
    Brakes- Front: 7 Rear: 6

    Gearing
    Final Gear - 5.500
    Top Speed - 112
    1st - 2.820
    2nd - 2.000
    3rd - 1.640
    4th - 1.360
    5th - 1.130
    Final - 3.830

    LSD - 9/7/15

    Weight Adjustment - 108@ -50

    TUNER NOTES -
    Still slides under braking into a corner :grumpy: Need to fix that!

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2014
    XS, xande1959 and praiano63 like this.
  11. rams1de

    rams1de

    Messages:
    451
    Another 450pp tune, another trip to Trial Mountain

    @krenkme 1:39.505 SH (1:34.245 SS)

    Handles elevation changes well and responds nicely to trail braking

    Feels very heavy up front with slow steering response and snappy rear. Took a few laps to work out a comfortable line into turns and discovered I could drift the back end a little without spinning out. Delivers consistent lap times (no drifting) and quite good top speed and doesn't hit rev limiter until downhill section after second tunnel.
    This car grew on me after a few laps but ultimately let down by the heavy steering response
     
  12. KOGSoldier

    KOGSoldier

    Messages:
    155
    I'm late on this one...will be on time for next months choice tho...and gonna try a couple of the posted tunes as well
     
  13. krenkme

    krenkme

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    Location:
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    Thanks for the test :tup:. I was so worried about the rear sliding around that it made the front feel " heavy". I'll still be working on it, and thanks to your feedback I may have some idea where to go with it :cheers::dopey:
     
  14. Jakedog23

    Jakedog23

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    If I can afford the Rally one I might get a tune in.
     
    seb15000 likes this.
  15. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    11,646
    @rams1de : So, as I am curious, I drove my car ( 450PP ) at Trial Mountain :) Using Sports Soft, got high 1:34s 1st lap. seems to me that the Stratos needs some left foot braking to avoid BLOR on this particular track due to lots of bumps and elevation changes :D I was surprised at how much speed it can carry around corners :eek: Probably could do 1:33s with better run.


    Did 1:34.3xxx with messy right hander after 1st tunnel and messy downhill left hander before the chicane on the last part of the track. Should do 1:33s.

    So, further testing - for LSD, I added braking sensitivity to 37, this change alone is good enough to reduce the BLOR and make the Stratos easier to handle.
    Learned something else, the car also do not like full braking power all of a sudden, maybe brake balance needs to be lowered a bit.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
  16. rams1de

    rams1de

    Messages:
    451
    I'm sure the time reflects the limitations of my driving rather than your tune. As I said, it retains much of the cars original character which requires a level of skill I don't have. I drive with my right foot on accelerator or brake, haven't developed heel and toe or left foot braking technique.

    I didn't want to change anyone's tune but wished I'd adjusted the top speed of a couple of them, including yours which may have the tranny settings for Tsukuba. If you like, I'll re-run it with adjusted top speed which is sure to improve my lap times, especially on sports soft.
     
  17. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,646
    :) Lap times are driver dependent IMO, I am sure we can always improve with more time driving. I used the gearing for Tsukuba ( 3.824 final ) -seems fine for me and my highest speed is 215ish kmh at the end of the long straight after the long tunnel - very near to rev limit. Have you looked at the tune posted above and page 2 ? I have added some details about LSD, maybe adding brake sensitivity to 37 will help :) The Stratos needs fine tuning to suit different tracks. Trial Mountain is a tricky place, I always found some place where I can gain more speed but usually messed up on another place as I become too greedy :lol:

    My best 1st sector was mid 17s, and my 1:34.3xx lap has mid 18s 1st sector, so I can see someone who is quick will have 1:33s easily - still I want to find anything that I can change to make the car more accessible and easier to push - also thinking of adding front camber to 0.2 to make the front end less ponty at high speed. Right now the Stratos is quicker when trail braking a bit early with a bit of slip as having a bit of angle when hitting the apex seems to make the car quicker overall, as well as fun, it's so addicting :p
     
  18. rsergio007

    rsergio007

    Messages:
    30
    This is my favorite car in GT6, have tried everything to tame it, but still struggle with medium and high speed corners.
    Not trying to sound like a purist xxxx but, is someone able to post a tune with no ballast, just with suspension and LSD for SH/CS tyres? I mean, I love the way the Stratos turns brutally on entry and how just after you nail the apex you can mash the throttle getting the weight transferred to the rear and the car totally planted. What is frustrating is how easily you can lose the rear on a fast corner if it gets unloaded. But to me, tunes with ballast and SS tyres are quite off-putting. It would be great to find a subtle minimal tune, where the fundamental behavior is maintained and the rear unloading issues are minimised. Of course ballast can help to stabilize the car but I was hoping someone could address the issue with just suspension and LSD.
     
  19. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,646
    The ballast on my tune are there to replicate real life Stratos HF Stradale weight distribution 46/54. GT6 has it wrong, and there are many cars that are wrong :) If wanted stability, there's an easier way than ballast, use the ride height exploit like some that has been posted here. Running low front high rear gives the car better stability and tendency to understeer.

    Feel free to try my tune without ballast and weight reduction :) Be sure to run low front and high rear if you want the easy fix :lol:
     
  20. TurnLeft

    TurnLeft

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    Will be testing it today, you didn't mention if you changed the oil or not, not of the most importance since I'll try it on both. See you soon.
     
  21. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    11,646
    They are both have oil change, it's listed right under GTAUTO :D
     
  22. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Location:
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    Quick question about replica tunes, do you take driver weight into account when building or just match the unloaded weight distribution? Just curious, not questioning your methods.
     
  23. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,646
    Depend on the information that I have, I usually use kerb weight distribution. If I have corner weight values from the actual car, usually with driver and fuel, I will use that. For weight figure, I tend to use kerb weight, I don't add fuel + driver weight as without them, I can replicate the lap time quite accurately.
     
  24. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Ahh ok, fair enough. I don't really understand tuning replicas personally but if that's your thing then by all means carry on.
    Does it not concern you that the ballast created by the driver (lets say 75kg roughly over centre) will change the overall weight balance and not be simulated in your tunes? I can understand not wanting to add the extra weight but surely the weight distribution should be the same as with the driver in place? Take the miata for example, without a driver the car has a slight nose weight bias, with a driver the weight distribution is designed to be closer to 50:50. This will naturally change characteristics and affect the accuracy of the outcome.
    I'm purely hypothesising here so please don't take it as any form of judgement about any of your cars, the few I've driven of yours have been perfectly serviceable.
     
  25. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,646
    I understand that weight of fuel and driver are not clearly stated how they are implemented in GT6, but fuel is calculated in the game although offline, all cars always have full tank :(. Not sure if the fuel weight alters weight distribution in GT6, while driver weight might be already included in physics, who knows ? We do have a driver avatar inside the car when driven on track, so maybe PD set certain weight value for the driver and added when the car is on track ?

    So, I decided not to use driver weight as it's very hard to make a defining figure and will make building replicas too complicated. I asked myself how much weight should I add for the driver ? 75kg ? 80kg ? On cars with ballast positioned to reach certain distribution as IRL, adding driver weight will complicate things as I would want to include the fuel as well, but we don't know how fuel weight is treated in GT6. Right now, my method when I build replicas, if there's a lap time known IRL on a track included in GT6, my goal is to replicate that with closest possible tire, power, torque and kerb weight + distribution, usually GT6 is spot on :D but often I am a bit quicker - never more than a second, maybe driver weight can fix that :lol:

    For general tuning, I always avoid altering stock weight distribution using ballast to purposely change the car balance, and avoid using ride height trick or mixing tire compound. I always tried the best I could to tune suspension and LSD to suit my driving ( I tend to use 0.2 camber - some camber without causing too much grip loss, and realistic toe setup based on real life alignment ) I am a nerd :lol:
     
    DolHaus likes this.
  26. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    3,865
    Location:
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    Well thought out and explained, I was just interested in your methodology really, always good to see someone else's way of doing things. I can understand not wanting to work out the fuel loads, that would get really complicated, really fast.
    I imagine it would be possible to work out the true weight distribution with the driver in place but its been a long time since I've had any need to do any physics related algebra so I can't really bring forth a potential solution.
     
  27. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,646
    There is one situation where I can build a replica with driver included, if I have a real car corner weight data with known driver weight, amount of fuel inside and any added mods on the car. I will use that for sure, so the weight distribution will based on real car with a driver and fuel :) But, that still won't be accurate as the game will add fuel too :lol: Have to find corner weight of a car with no fuel but with a driver, how hard can it be :lol:

    Sometimes having a front heavy car is not all that bad, some of my FF replicas has much worse distribution ( more at the front ) than stock value of GT6 :lol:, but they drive really well despite that fact. My TODA FD2 Civic Type R replica tuned to 450PP so far is the quickest 450PP car I have driven at Tsukuba on comfort soft, capable of 1:04.5xxx on stock gearbox :eek: and it has 59/41 distribution.

    Just found out recently that Clio RS '11 should have 65/35 weight distribution based on corner weight figures and manufacturer spec sheet :eek: but GT6 has 53/47 stock if I remember correctly :grumpy: and I can't bring it to 65/35.
     
  28. rsergio007

    rsergio007

    Messages:
    30
    Ride height exploit definitely not what I was looking for :)
    Everytime I tried tuning this car I have lowered it a bit, equally front and rear, considering that would limit weight transfer by lowering the CoG. Taking the wild assumption that GT6 does simulate that correctly.
    What I'm looking for is for people who know what their doing regarding suspension to come up with plain and simple suspension tuning to limit the cornering whackiness (of course assuming GT6 suspension tuning produces noticeable effects at this stage)
     
  29. TurnLeft

    TurnLeft

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    Location:
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    @xande1959
    12Statler-waldorf.jpg
    I do have a question before. When you built this tune-up did you have in mind a race, event or any particular reason? It makes it easier to do a review of a tuning if you know what is was designed for. That said, I took your beloved little car to three different tracks, Fuji Speedway F, Matterhorn Riffelsee and Circuit de Madrid, I though that they represented 3 totally different drives. Also I decided not to compare the new cars I review with the others (should have done that from the beginning) for the reason that not one tuner built there tunings for the same reason. (race/tracks/events).

    Fuji Speedway: When I looked at your tuning sheet I was wandering how your Camber Angle would do, I've done a little testing but never with very high numbers. First two laps just went around to see how the car handled, better than the stock car PD gave us, but the front tires did turn red on some corners, but hey I was driving so who knows. The following 7 laps I tried pushing it, as with the stock Stratos, slow in/slow out. On the long straight when up to the last gear I did a passing maneuver as if I was in a race, I'm not sure if it's the Camber Angle but it doesn't like that. I know this track can be slippery but it could use to be little more stable when changing lanes. The braking was good as long as you don't have to hard brake in a turn. Of course if it wasn't made for racing than there is no problem.

    Matterhorn Riffelsee:

    I was sure I would have problems here but it was not the case. On this version of the Matterhorn there aren't to sharp curves and the Stratos loves that. Amazingly the grip was good and the driving was really fun here, especially going down those nice long curvy slopes. So if you want a track that you could refine this car for this might be a good place, it wouldn't need a lot of tweaks for it to master this road, and it's a blast to drive here.

    Circuit de Madrid:
    If you want a track to really test your car bring it here, find a race/event and go for it. The sharp curves demand some throttle control, I know that this car is a handful but if someone was to race here as is, you would have to be a good pilot, and maybe you are but in a race you might need a little more grip in and out.

    Conclusion:
    Not knowing the reason why you built this makes it difficult to judge.
    To race A-spec events : yes, should be an easy win for intermediate/advanced pilot at 450-500PP races.
    To race other Stratos tuned:No, there are a couple of tunings here that if you take the time to try them you'll see why, and mine is not included in those.
    To make it better than stock: yes, definitely, it is a lot better than the stock version and is real fun to drive on most tracks.
    Is it a Replica: I would not know, the only cars I've driven are a Parisienne, Camry, Matrix and Outback.
    Did it test my Patience: No, because of the Stratos I learnt to drive with throttle control, and also I've raised a son who demanded a lot more control than any car in this game. (no white hair but not much left)

    Real fun to try this, and it's always great to see people trying different things out. I only put a couple of scratches on it, I got a lot of practice before with the others so yours will only need a couple of little touch ups. Have a good day.
     
    xande1959, Ronald6 and DolHaus like this.
  30. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Location:
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    Yeah I'm not debating which weight distribution is best, they all have their time and place, sometimes front bias is best, sometimes mid, sometimes rear, all depends on what the car can do and what you want it to do.
    I suppose the accuracy of your replica is defined by the data you can acquire on the real car and then how much of that can be translated into GT physics. Still, good to know, didn't really understand the replica process before but now I've got a general idea about the aims, thanks for explaining. I just tune what is fastest for me and throw any original characteristics out the window if they're not useful too me, its a bit brutal I suppose but it gets me where I need to go
     
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