Do "elite" drivers ruin the game?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by bmxmitch, Jul 12, 2018.

  1. bmxmitch

    bmxmitch

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    I know this will get a lot of hate, but for me the so called "aliens" ruin the expreience/variaty we have in sport mode.
    Why you ask? Well, just look at the Top 10 list in every daily race.

    I'm well aware that some cars may be OP and its a neverending story with new (slightly) OP cars every update. But for me, the bigger problem is the faster guys who jump on them just to get the slight advantage (of maybe 0.1 to 0.5secs).
    What follows is the sheep who think they have to use them too, to even be slightly competitive. Of course there are some exceptions, @TRL LIGHTNING is a good example, as he uses lots of underrated cars and owns the Top10 list most of the time. So you see 9 Meganes and one NSX on top.
    If more of the fast guys would do that, we would see a more mixed field and would have more fun races. IMO :sly:

    The last race I did, everyone and their mothers used a Megane or Lancer. I was the only one in a Citroen and could keep up easily. And why? Because I know the car and how to use it.
    Most of the meta sheep just use what they see on the Top10 list, without any experience of the car and its brakingpoints etc.

    I know this will never happen, as every game has this so called "meta" era. But one man can dream, right? And I will never join them and will be forever the special snowflake :p
    I just hope more would join. Especially the faster guys, as they can influence the whole community the most.
     
  2. RACECAR

    RACECAR Premium

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    I think the problem lies less with the alien drivers and more so with the general users: People want to win with the least amount of work, period. This is a issue common in ANY competitive game where whatever has the best overall stats is instantly the favorite to use. Its less a problem with the people who are actually good at the game (and can get the potential out of ANY car) and more so with the people who aren't as capable.
     
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  3. Storm_SP17

    Storm_SP17 Premium

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    Meta is Meta for a reason; in order to beat the rest you have to pick the best tool for the job.

    That said, there's a lot in being able to fully eek out the performance of every car at the current BoP, and a VAST majority of us can't; fact.

    The onus is on PD listening intently to the community, and the community knowing PRECISELY what needs to be done to deliver that varied list of top 10's and top 100's we all want to see before we start bashing the flaws.

    We give PD crap but the VAST majority of us ALSO can't BoP a list of 4 Gr.3 cars to save our lives let alone a 4 or 5 whole categories of cars...
     
  4. kilesa4568

    kilesa4568

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    Gr4 is seriously unbalanced so you'll always see more of the meta cars. You can't fault people for choosing them.
     
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  5. Storm_SP17

    Storm_SP17 Premium

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    A lot of that is due to how desperately different the weights and powers are in that category. The Meta car changes at every track, almost.

    Even if two cars do the same lap time, one could be so much better on fuel or even at fuel saving that it becomes an incredibly strong car in Daily C or Cup races.
     
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  6. R10tz0r

    R10tz0r

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    No, for me they are the benchmark and something I aspire to achieve.

    Daily race wise, you're going to want every advantage you can in qualifying, the Top 10 is generally a good guide but not the bible, especially in Race C or the FIA races, where the fastest in the top 10 could be horrible under race conditions.
     
  7. daan

    daan Moderator

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    The other thing with this is that IRL, most drivers in a BOP'd series (like Blancpain) can lap a car within a couple of seconds of each other no matter whether they are platinum, gold or silver.

    In GTS, I can easily be ~4 seconds away from the top times.

    I think the BOP in GTS is mostly fine but we don't show it off to its best due to the vastly differing skill levels we have. (Which is kind of the topic.)
     
  8. Tidgney

    Tidgney Premium

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    It honestly depends, some people will try different cars. I know when I tried the RCZ gr.3 the first time way back when I did well with it (Was Suzuka), others started to use it (Not very good now though :lol:) but nobody tried it because nobody expected it to do well? Lightning is the same he likes the WRX so goes for that when he can, other guys like different manufacturers. I always say to most people just use the car you enjoy but in some situations, especially group 4 the balance is so off that you've only really got a few choices so everyone gravitates to the best option.

    If I'm really honest, fuel and tyres has ruined the choices substantially, why on earth would you pick a FWD car with tyre wear? If a cars fuel heavy why on earth would you pick that as you lose so much time in the pits? They have to Balance both on 1 lap pace, fuel and also tyres? Incredibly difficult if not impossible on a 1 BoP fits all tracks situation.. They need a BoP per circuit which can be done as we have circuit and oval, there's no reason that can't be a circuit based BoP. So it would read Balance of Performance (Brands GP) for example? BoP per track will bring cars much closer and give people a lot more freedom to pick the cars they want to use.
     
  9. Alpha Cipher

    Alpha Cipher

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    My mindset with this is actually that other than the blatantly OP cars like the Trophy, it's the Top 10ners themselves who decide the META. It's not the aliens at fault, but rather the general sheep you mentioned. I still remember one Gr. 3 Monza daily where a japanese guy managed to snatch the first spot in the leaderboards for half a day in a Lamborghini. Needless to say most of the time half the field is filled up with Huracans

    And if the Top 10ners do choose what is the META, it's not because they're in the bandwagon, but rather because they understand how the META itself works. Why did the aliens know that the Pug VGT is good for Tokyo East but not at Monza? And vice versa with the Mustang?

    There are also dailies where the Top 10 is diverse like Maggiore Gr. 4 before the Trophy was added. What did the sheep do? They all used the car that was either at the Top 1, or the most common in the Top 10 (even if only 3 people used the same car there)

    I can see why it's easy to blame the aliens for this phenomenon, but honestly I think it's just so because they are the minority that has the literal power to decide what could happen in a daily. And the part you mentioned that they use the META cars (or at least other than the Trophy, the cars they decide is the best for them) to gain the last tenths? I think, if anything, they are the most deserving group to do this. They are chasing the final tenths in META cars because anything less than that and the cars physically cannot give the results they want. They're the elite, where every hundreth, even thousandth of a second is a very crucial advantage. 0.1 to 0.5 seconds is not "just a slight advantage", it's a world's difference through the lens of an alien
     
  10. darth_tails

    darth_tails

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    Well I noticed yesterday that the Meta car for Blue Moon Bay Speedway was completely different from the Group 3 race there last week.

    Yesterday was all Mitsubishi Lancer Evo for the EU top 10 so everyone went with that car yet the time before the Lancer failed to appear as it was a mix of Nissan GT-R and the Toyota VG-T both of which I tested yesterday and was able to get within 0.39 of the top time set by the Lancer in the Toyota.

    My mentally and I am sure the same of many other casual gamers is that we don't have the time to start practicing with individaul cars so the top 10 list ends up being what we use.

    For my part I have a huge list of best lap times that I've saved from each individaul car I get a good best lap with on each track so I will always try and pick from the selection if I can rather than just follow the sheep.
     
  11. Haitauer

    Haitauer

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    Theres also meta cars in real life. Like F1 - I think all drivers would have chosen Red Bull for monaco if possible. :lol:

    "aliens" are mostly drivers who have dedicated hours per day and years of their life to get the skills. They will be up there with any given one make race, but in bop races they just have to go for the ultimate tool to be competitive.

    If one is annouyed by not having change in top10, its the same as casual runner would be annoyed not having chance beating Bolt or Gatlin. :lol:

    Try to embrace the genius sport mode match making. Not only are you racing against your own level/league, you are advancing if you manage finishing top half and above your racing number.

    I have let my self understand this:
    You qualify to a race at grid #14 out of 20, and your door nurber stands #8. Finnish top 10 and you get +DR. Finnish top 7 the higher the better, and you get ++DR as your DR ranking among the grid is 8th. That way you can be very happy finishing 5th as you know you have beaten drivers ranked above you.

    This even gives you satisfaction in finishing 13th in a tough race with door #18.. :cheers:

    I think this should be explained in game before entering sport mode, to motivate people. :idea:
     
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  12. Storm_SP17

    Storm_SP17 Premium

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    They have the tech (given how Ovals have their own BoP) to track specify their BoP.

    I would, however, dispute that the Balance would still not be properly addressed due to fuel and tyres like you mentioned even with a track specific BoP. Making full use of the pit lane setting that they have access to could relieve some of that particular headache but not completely. However, PD doesn't utilise it at all aside from setting refuel speed; which properly governed can give cars that are shocking on fuel a quicker pit exit. Yes it gives all cars that same buff, but to more economic cars it's a case of diminishing returns.
     
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  13. Alpha Cipher

    Alpha Cipher

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    Speaking of the META for BMB, this illustrates how the top drivers decide the META. For instance in darth_tails' case, he saw that the Top 10 is full of Evo Lancers, but the last time I checked in Asia it was the Toyota FT-1. And even more to that is SuperGT's videos featuring a BMB had Jaguar F-Types as the META. It's very fascinsting how this all works :)

    Also another note to add: BMB has its own BoP with all the cars running identical power and weight if I remember correctly, so updates wouldn't theoretically change the META there, if there is one at all
     
  14. Crazy Taylor

    Crazy Taylor Premium

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    I don't like the word 'sheep'. I think the word 'lemmings' should be used instead. This is since one follows another off a cliff.
     
  15. Lord of Tranz

    Lord of Tranz

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    Probably explains why I can't win ****, lol.

    I like Mustangs, and winning isn't what I need to enjoy my racing, though of course, it's the target. But I'm finding myself well out of my depth out there, as I don't think much, but do, if that makes sense. And if these cars are balanced, all should be in with a chance I figured. After all, there isn't any tuning really, lol. Ahh well, I enjoy the racing for any position, and I hate wooden spoons, so that's my target, lol. Must look up what's best where one day.

    Be nice to get a 2nd win, lol.

    Thinking of it, this is why I loved GT6 so much. The seasonals and drifting and such, we all had default cars to use. I loved competing and improving myself against others times more than the spicy racing I fiind here with the messed up penalties etc. on sport mode.
     
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  16. Lost Sheltie

    Lost Sheltie

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    It's hard to know what cars are competitive if you just want to hop into a race after say 10mins practice. I don't really want to spend 1 hour trying to work out a competitive car to race so sometimes there is nothing you can do but pick a car out of the top 10.

    Maybe they could have a 3rd table with the top time in each manufacturers car?

    It would encourage people to try out other cars if they saw that it was only a couple of tenths of the meta car.
     
  17. WhiteFlight1

    WhiteFlight1

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    I agree, but I think raw talent plays a much larger role than that.
     
  18. QRacer_31

    QRacer_31 Premium

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    Only thing the aliens ruined for me was this: I was the only A/S+ driver using the RCZ in FIA Manufacturers for quite some time then everyone started using it when Snow was killing everyone in it. Now with the current BoP, it’s not really good anywhere and I can’t compete with faster drivers anymore :banghead:

    Had fun while it lasted :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  19. Storm_SP17

    Storm_SP17 Premium

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    IRL the criteria for Silv, Gold and Plat are different to how we perceive. The raw difference of skill IRL for Blancpain and WEC is roughly similar to what you'd expect within the top 0.5% of the player base of GTS.

    I disagree that the BoP is mostly fine; the lap times need to be within acceptable parameters (all cars within half a second or closer, track depending) and the environment created to race in needs to try and gear towards ironing out the stint advantages that may stem from the former.

    That takes a combined effort from us and PD, very akin to Driver and Race Engineer, funnily enough. We need to be smarter in the info we give, not some basic b!$"h whining; something refined and worth taking on board, and PD needs to be pragmatic in how they perceive and action the feedback. Win the battle on track and in the pits, so to speak.
     
  20. mthomas_95

    mthomas_95

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    A lot of this argument falls apart when you realise most "aliens" stopped doing Daily Races months ago unless they needed an SR boost :lol:. FIA leaderboards are often more varied than the Dailies, even with the same class/track combo.

    If I was up early enough I'd have a blast getting something uncompetitive to the top of the Daily leaderboard in 10 minutes and watching the sheep flock to it. It takes hours usually for someone to figure out there's a faster option (especially in Race C where the fastest race car is often different to fastest hotlap car). Gr4 is an exception but that's because there's 2 really obvious metas depending on track (Bugatti or Megane)

    So if anyone is 'ruining" the game it's the plebs who can't be bothered trying different cars :sly:
     
  21. BallPtPenTheif

    BallPtPenTheif

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    The META picks will always happen and nothing is going to ever stop it from happening.

    I'm honestly fine with it. Even though the Cayman is currently nerfed, it's not like I was pushing it to it's complete limits with my DR B driving. So I still race it on GR 4 even if the pack is always crawling away on the straights. It has it's own fun trying to pass everyone with cornering and initial exit speeds rather than top speed.

    If I was in the upper A or low S ranking I could totally see myself caving to META cars, which would be when it really mattered anyways.
     
  22. bmxmitch

    bmxmitch

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    Alonso surely wont agree with you there :p


    And btw, I never thought this thread would end up in a good conversation. I was expecting more "git gud" posts :lol:
    Nice to see some perspectives on how and why we use certain cars, or why we ended up in this "meta" loop. :cheers:

    But I still hope the "fast" guys set themself a challenge from time to time, to reach the leaderboards in an underused car!
    And I have to agree, FIA manufacturer races are so much better! I just wished we had more of them again...
     
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  23. Satomiblood

    Satomiblood

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    I don't mind aliens, but I do mind people that use lag switches. That right there is a prime example of ruining someone's actual online experience (aside from people deliberately making contact with you).
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
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  24. Greycap

    Greycap Premium

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    This was very funnily apparent some days ago at Suzuka. In the grid of 16 cars there were 14 Megane Trophys, one Cayman and in the last place one Scirocco with me behind the wheel of the latter. I wasn't even trying to win, mainly out to farm completed races, yet I still finished 7th with a car that should have nothing to say against the Meganes. I was driving it because I had got used to it in the previous week's one make races. No idea how I managed to hang with the Meganes through the twisties, tells something about how clueless most people were about its handling.
     
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  25. ASH32

    ASH32

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    I'd use different cars if I knew what were good and if I was fast enough to be competitive in them but I'm not. Even in quiet times there's usually a couple of real aliens on and a few other decent drivers and whilst I'll often be beaten by the top guys, I have a chance against the others, if I'm in a car that's known to be quick (at least over one lap), to get a decent result. If I take a car I don't normally use I'd likely be mid-pack fodder for your typical dirty driver using said Meta car and that is no fun.

    Then again I still don't think I've found "the" car for me either which is probably why I'm more inclined to see what other's use first.

    Also as said, in some cases, like yesterday at Brands, even an alien in the Lancer may have struggle to beat us decent guys who were using the Trophy because the BOP is not right, if they had picked the McLaren they'd have had no chance, in fact a top half finish would have been a good result.
     
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  26. bmxmitch

    bmxmitch

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    I had the opposite experience at Monza once. I picked the Citroen once again and started somewhere at place 3-4. Behind me, only Veyrons!
    As the Veyron needs to break a good junk earlier than my citroen, lots of people missjudged the brakepoints and missed the corners. resulting in a relaxed race for me (as long as they didnt catched me on the straits first) :lol:
    And I could easily attack out of the slipstream and break later into the chicanes. Worked out pretty well and gained me 2 positions in the end. :)
     
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  27. Alpha Cipher

    Alpha Cipher

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    In my FiA race the 6 cars that aren't Veyrons are Citroens. The 6th one is an RC F

    You might not be using the META, but the COUNTER-META! dundunduuuuunnnn :lol:
     
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  28. Crazy Taylor

    Crazy Taylor Premium

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    As in Initial D dundunduuuuunnnn.
     
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  29. WhiteFlight1

    WhiteFlight1

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    @bmxmitch So Alonso says he came to where he is now through mostly practice and a mediocre talent? :lol:
     
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  30. bmxmitch

    bmxmitch

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    There always has to be another evil good to beat the evil.

     
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