Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[dunkee]

Who says that? I don't see anyone saying that.

I was referring to GT4 vs Forza 1 in my last post as I have never played the GTHD demo or Forza 2 demo but in that case (GT4 vs Forza 1) and most will agree, GT4 had much more 'feel'.

I agree w/ you on that one. After some back to back test w/ GT4 and Forza 1 I realized GT4 w/ it's sim tires felt the most realistic.

It's this sort of thing that makes me believe the entire argument you have put forward has been based on nothing but fanboy bias.

Here we've got a long term quality member that is willing to openly admit and discuss "bad" sides of GT (along with all the other games being discussed) yet you blanket statement him into a statement that hasn't even been made in this thread.

That's just rediculus and probably almost as rediculus as the idea that you present opinions in this thread that are even half as well informed or unbiased as what Dave A has presented. 👎

Dude relax. He came at me w/ the "you aren't talking to me" attitude so I responded w/ attitude. Quality member has nothing to do w/ that.

Sorry for all the post..and it was this is what Dave was talking about.

"If you guys get chance check it out..but w/ an open mind."

From a couple post above.

 

[Kent]

I agree w/ you on that one. After some back to back test w/ GT4 and Forza 1 I realized GT4 w/ it's sim tires felt the most realistic.


Dude relax. He came at me w/ the "you aren't talking to me" attitude so I responded w/ attitude. Quality member has nothing to do w/ that.

Sorry for all the post..and it was this is what Dave was talking about.

"If you guys get chance check it out..but w/ an open mind."

From a couple post above.

Dave A said "I hope you're not talking about me" then justified how out of line your statement was by re-iterating his willingness to admit GT's faults and the good points of other games (that's not getting an attitude, that's responding to an uncalled-for, false, and to some extent, insulting statement).

Furthermore, the open-mindedness of members on this site participating in this thread is obviously not the problem since you are already showing that your "open-minded" approach precludes anyone from being open-minded (case and point, Dave A).

The fact of the matter is... When someone disagrees with you, you either call them a fanboy, imply they are a fanboy, quote someone else calling people of that opinion fanboys, or simply say that the individual (as well as the group) is not open-minded.

 

[dunkee]

Dave A said "I hope you're not talking about me" then justified how out of line your statement was by re-iterating his willingness to admit GT's faults and the good points of other games (that's not getting an attitude, that's responding to an uncalled-for, false, and to some extent, insulting statement).

Furthermore, the open-mindedness of members on this site participating in this thread is obviously not the problem since you are already showing that your "open-minded" approach precludes anyone from being open-minded (case and point, Dave A).

Well going off topic but ok..

what I said, not directed to Dave..was general

Funny thing is I was a GT4 fanboy before I guess now I'm a Forza fanboy I like to think I am open minded though. You guys don't have to take my word for it..there are many even amar212 who think it drives really well. If you guys get chance check it out..but w/ an open mind. Just cause it doesn't drive like GT doesn't mean it's wrong.

Stab that I did throw at Dave

Funny thing is I was a GT4 fanboy before I guess now I'm a Forza fanboy I like to think I am open minded though. You guys don't have to take my word for it..there are many even amar212 who think it drives really well. If you guys get chance check it out..but w/ an open mind. Just cause it doesn't drive like GT doesn't mean it's wrong.

Can we get back to demo vs demo debate now?

 

[Kent]

Well going off topic but ok..

what I said, not directed to Dave..was general


Stab that I did throw at Dave


Can we get back to demo vs demo debate now?

Well we indeed can get back to the topic but you must not act as if throwing out off topic content and getting back to the subject gives you some kind of upper hand (or right to clearly contradict yourself)....

By saying "guy's" I hope you arn't including me,

I was referring to you as well. You are not a king are you?

So, yes we can get back to the debate but, I want to make this clear... PM me if you have anything else you'd like to address regarding your blanket statements of fanboyism and lacking open-mindedness. I will be happy to hear what you have to say regarding your responses in this thread.

That said, does anyone know a good way to play either demo without actually buying a system (assuming there are no friends you could rely on for a quick glimpse of their system).

 

[dunkee]

PMing you now. I will give you the magical upperhand to be civil.

And I hope they have it somewhere on display w/ the wheel. That is one thing I won't get until I test it.

 

[shawtyoner]

I just played the demo yesterday and i liked it, alot. I am registered on this forum and Forza's. I have played both GT4 and Forza since they have been out, i prefer GT4, it just seems purer to me. After playing the Forza 2 demo however, out of my own personal experience with both games, i can see myself getting really into this game way more than GT4 or FM1. I am not some super technical wizard when it comes to physics but i felt that the FM2 demo portrayed enjoyable "sim" physics. I don't know if they are perfect or not, after all it' s game, if you want ultra real physics, strap yourself into a real car and head to the track. I haven't had the opportunity however to play the GTHD demo which i am still dying to try out. Once i do, then it will just come to which do i prefer personaly.

 

[Wolfe]

Okay don't hold me on this. I haven't played FM1 in forever.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to put you on the spot.

But when playing teh demo I feel that it is realistic and that I am driving a tightrope on the edge of over or understeer. It's not at all like GT, in GT you could be making you way through a sweeper and floor it or put on the brakes and would only get understeer. In FM2 you would get both under and oversteer.

Sounds good. I trust you based on your comment on GT here. 👍

I would have to tell you to try it out at the display in a store before making you judgment.

I plan to. I'll see if I can try it at EB tomorrow after work.

Oh and I certainly hope they have done a better job of the 'ring this time around, because the last one was shockingly bad. Far, far to wide and with curbs the size of small buildings.

If you watch the video that YSSMAN posted (quoted in this thread by dunkee), I'm sure you'll be quite disappointed, as I was. It's better than Forza 1 -- the hugely exaggerated elevation changes and skyscraper curbs seem to be gone -- but it's still huge, wide, and stretched out.

dunkee is correct in that the FM2 demo is much, much better physics wise than FM1. Imo I will enjoy serious driving in FM2, something I didn't enjoy very much in FM1 because the physics were bad...

...But I will not be shouting it out as a contender for most realistic physics in a console sim ever, that title imo is still joint owned by GT4 and EPR. It's good enough to be very enjoyable imo, but it is not the best.

I like what I'm reading. 👍

 

[ChadSpeed]

I have to say to all members, this is great. I love the civil discussion we all can have here about to different games on different systems. That's why I left the Official Sony Forums for the GT series, they locked everything that said anything about something not Sony, their own rules.

I do hope GT5 will get me as hyped as FM2 has. I think they are both going to be groundbreaking games in their own respects. I really wish PD would open up and get on the bandwagon Turn10, Bungie and many other have started, with official forums, exclusive vids and pics. That would make the hype that much better and give fans a chance to voice opinions on what they should change.

 

[dan_gtp]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but no one bases a physics engine around steering compensation, no matter how dumb you think Turn10 is. Steering compensation is just a bit of programming that acts as a mediator between the player's control input and the game. It has nothing to do with the physics, because it provides the steering angle value that is sent to the physics engine.

Also, 720 degrees is quite short for a road car. I would know -- I drive a car that does 1440. The average is right around the Driving Force Pro and G25's 900 degrees, but there are other cars that have more.


How is Turn10 responsible for the fact that there aren't any DFP/G25-caliber wheels for the 360?

Also, unless you've played the game yourself, I'm sure the cars in Forza 2 aren't nervous. That's what the steering compensation is for -- to provide some center reduction (less sensitivity near center and more sensitivity on the left/right extremes) to make things more controllable. Besides, if you play with a controller (like me) the whole steering lock-to-lock point is moot, and you still get to play with the same exact physics engine.

I know exactly how steering compensation works. And my belief still stands.
Turn10 knew there would be no steering wheel with 900 degrees available on Xbox360, and I doubt they were able to test the game with one during development.
So they tuned the handling/physics using a wheel that doesn't represent real life in terms of available lock.
I use a G25 myself, and the feeling with GTHD is incredible. The lightness/precision. Try this combo, then come back and respond.

PD was able to push for development together with Logitech for the creation DFP.
It adds a lot to the overall feeling of the car.
There are no excuses for Turn10. From there creation history, my impression is that they are not perfectionists like PD.
I have no respect for Turn10, because of their history. One example, they realeased a version of the Ring in Forza2 that is far from reality, this shows desrespect.

 

[scandisk]

There are no excuses for Turn10. From there creation history, my impression is that they are not perfectionists like PD.
I have no respect for Turn10, because of their history. One example, they realeased a version of the Ring in Forza2 that is far from reality, this shows desrespect.

C'mon dude you can't be serious, let go of that hate.

 

[Jay]

So no chance of any 900 degree support and wheel for Forza 2 and Xbox360? That really puts a big dent in it for me.

 

[Wolfe]

Turn10 knew there would be no steering wheel with 900 degrees available on Xbox360, and I doubt they were able to test the game with one during development.
So they tuned the handling/physics using a wheel that doesn't represent real life in terms of available lock.

You're assuming a wheel with an "accurate" lock-to-lock ratio is necessary to "tune" physics to a respectable level of realism, and that simply isn't true. This is evident in the fact that the highly-accurate simulator Live for Speed first appeared in 2002, two years before the Driving Force Pro was available, in 2004. Granted, LFS has improved greatly in the post-DFP era, but the earlier releases were more than enough to embarrass Gran Turismo 4 on a very grand scale.

Furthermore, if the essential elements of the physics engine are solid the game shouldn't need much "tuning" anyway, and you shouldn't need a steering wheel to enjoy it.

The only reason why Live for Speed is rather unplayable with a gamepad is because it doesn't have a complex steering compensation model that second-guesses all of your inputs, like GT4, Enthusia, and Forza do. As a result, you have to "feather" the joystick yourself, because full-lock left or right on the joystick means full-lock on the in-game steering wheel.

I use a G25 myself, and the feeling with GTHD is incredible. The lightness/precision. Try this combo, then come back and respond.

I did invest in a G25, but I don't own a PS3 nor will I likely ever buy one. I don't own a 360 either, for that matter.

There are no excuses for Turn10. From there creation history, my impression is that they are not perfectionists like PD.

Actually, that would give Turn10 an excuse. When their game falls short of expectations (and I'm sure for you, Forza 2 will do that by default), you can just blame it on their american laziness and ineptitude.

What excuse is there for "perfect" Polyphony Digital to have released a game with as many flaws and broken promises as Gran Turismo 4? What if Gran Turismo 5 isn't any better? Will disappointed PD fans like myself be stuck playing GT3 and GT competitors forever (nevermind the fact that I don't have a PS3 anyway)?

 

[dan_gtp]

Wolfe
Its all about the experience in the end you know?
They can have great physics code, but the input (steering wheel) is unsatisfactory.

I own LFS myself, and absolutely love it. I can assure you that there isn't much tuning with physics in this sim. The goal is to simulate everything. LFS is unique in this sense.
Basically it is a no bull**** code system that runs on pure simulation. Most physics engines use fake effects to simulate certain behaviors. Read the interviews with LFS dev's to find out more.

If I remember correctly, last time both Turn10 and PD had similar hardware to work with, PD outclassed them completely. I'm sure many of the fellas here would agree with me?

Its completely unfair to compare Xbox360 to a PS2. PD has already said in interviews that he has never been able to run the physics engine he wanted, but with the PS3 he will finally have the power to.
Lets wait and see what PD can produce with next gen power?
I have no doubts they will deliver.

 

[ChadSpeed]

I have no respect for Turn10, because of their history. One example, they realeased a version of the Ring in Forza2 that is far from reality, this shows desrespect.

If you lose all respect for a game developer once they make something not realistic than you would have no respect for PD either. Many of the cars sounded horrid in GT4 and the rest of the series. GT4 didn't allow you to do burnouts or doughnuts. That all realistic stuff that PD didn't do right. I have respect for them I still love the GT series. But to not respect Turn 10 is very crappy on your part, look what they are doing for this genre. Giving it much needed competition so that it is not possible to get another GT4 from PD. Dynoing cars to record their sound, recoding sound of real tires, crashes etc. They are not the best at track and car modeling, but they are breaking new ground in sound. Now please don't pick one thing and say you have no respect for them, makes you look like a fanboy. Good day.

 

[dunkee]

Figured I'd post some pics..hope I'm not being confrontational to anyone 🤬

Game looks ok..far from ugly not PD prefect though. But the customizing & damage looks cool.

 

[Diab]

That F430 looks soooo good, I like the green painted wheels also, not the usual scheme you would expect for a Ferrari.

 

[FoolKiller]

I am going to assume that damage affects handling (it's pointless otherwise), when appropriate, but does it also affect drag? That R32 should have noticeably increased drag after it reaches a certain speed. Or the hood may just rip free with enough speed.


My whole take on the damage issue is (and neither game does this to the best of my knowledge) that if you have damage you should have cautions and DNFs. Pole Position had DNFs, so I see no reason why these newer games can't. If we have damage then you should factor in road debris and whether or not it becomes a hazard that requires cleaning off the track.

Of course it should all be settings in the options so that if someone wants to just play with a collection of cars, but not worry about damage and whatnot they can. Or someone looking for a 100% sim can have that as well.

I guess for me the issue of does it have damage or not is so small, because the full extent of what that means won't be explored, that I don't care and it won't affect which game I prefer.

There are three things that will be most important to me.
1) Is it fun to play?
2) Does it have replayability?
3) Are there any glaring issues that completely ruin the experience for me?

GT4 met all three criteria for me. FM1 was fun but I didn't want to go back and redo anything and the physics just seemed way off. GT4 leaves me tweaking everything and constantly trying to go back for a better time on something or to beat a race in an even smaller/slower car. In fact, some things get me replaying to a degree that I still have yet to reach 100%. Forza didn't make me want to do that or when I am bored it didn't make me want to grab a moderate everyday car and just cruise around the ring on it.

I will probably get a 360 and at least try FM2 at some point, but based on past experience I would chose GT5 on a PS3 first. Combine that with the fact that my 360 has to have the WiFi adaptor (or 100' of ethernet cable) and the steering wheel and it is actually cheaper to buy a PS3 with my DFP that I already own.

So, unless I try out FM2 somewhere and it impresses me enough to make me want to spend more money to have it over GT5 I will wind up with GT5. Either way, I will probably wait for GT5 before I make my final decision. Now, if I get a 360 the same way I got my original Xbox (free in a contest) then I will probably get both and see which holds my attention longer.

 

[dunkee]

I am going to assume that damage affects handling (it's pointless otherwise), when appropriate, but does it also affect drag? That R32 should have noticeably increased drag after it reaches a certain speed.

Yes effects handling and drag. The first was the same..you played it though? I'm assuming the sequel will just take it a step further.

 

[FoolKiller]

Yes effects handling and drag. The first was the same..you played it though? I'm assuming the sequel will just take it a step further.

I remembered that it did affect handling, but I couldn't remember drag (or if I noticed if it did). According to my Gamefly history it has been a year this past weekend since I rented it. Hopefully someone I know will get FM2 and I can try it out. I just never bought the first one because I knew I wouldn't pick it up when GT4 was sitting there next to it.

Nothing would make me happier than to have both games turn out to be top notch racers that create equal enjoyment.

 

[dunkee]

Yeah I got it a couple months ago second hand for like $10. Strangely I actually played it more then GT4.

 

[shawtyoner]

GT4 met all three criteria for me. FM1 was fun but I didn't want to go back and redo anything and the physics just seemed way off. GT4 leaves me tweaking everything and constantly trying to go back for a better time on something or to beat a race in an even smaller/slower car. In fact, some things get me replaying to a degree that I still have yet to reach 100%. Forza didn't make me want to do that or when I am bored it didn't make me want to grab a moderate everyday car and just cruise around the ring on it.

I feel the same way, with FM1 i felt like i was just rushing through it to 100% the game, unlike GT4 where i would just sometimes pick a car at random and just put in lap after blissfull lap.

After trying out the FM2 demo the other day however, i feel like i might be able to finally do that with FM2. I really liked it. GT5 is just too far away and i need my fix, FM2 will keep me busy for the next year and a half. I hope.

 

[Noremac55]

there is all this talk about GT HD being in a league of it's own against Forza motorsport, but do any of you guys think it will have more or less the same features as forza motorsport 1 & 2 like the tuning facility and the online auction, or will it be a bit of a disappointment with no skid marks or realistic smoke, etc.

 

[Wolfe]

Wolfe
Its all about the experience in the end you know?
They can have great physics code, but the input (steering wheel) is unsatisfactory.

If you feel it's unsatisfactory, that's fine. That doesn't mean everyone will feel the same way, and I will again point out that I only use my G25 for PC games, and use the controller for everything on consoles. And I'm not the only one who does so.

Basically it is a no bull**** code system that runs on pure simulation. Most physics engines use fake effects to simulate certain behaviors. Read the interviews with LFS dev's to find out more.

I know what you mean. To my knowledge there's only one console game that actually breaks down its physics into the components of the car rather than simple "turn," "accelerate," and "brake" values, and that's Enthusia. It isn't as in-depth as Live for Speed, but it works well and is quite impressive for a PS2 game.

If I remember correctly, last time both Turn10 and PD had similar hardware to work with, PD outclassed them completely. I'm sure many of the fellas here would agree with me?

I would agree with you. Aside from the customization and online play, Forza 1 was positively worthless, even worse than GT4. It's the mere fact that I don't and won't have access to a PS3 that's making me so hopeful about Forza 2.

Its completely unfair to compare Xbox360 to a PS2. PD has already said in interviews that he has never been able to run the physics engine he wanted, but with the PS3 he will finally have the power to.
Lets wait and see what PD can produce with next gen power?
I have no doubts they will deliver.

Did I compare Forza 2 to GT4? I believe I only compared GT4 to Live for Speed, and that was on the grounds that LFS came out earlier, before the DFP was even available.

 

[dan_gtp]

Wolfe

I'm not talking about how most people play these games. Its about the maximum level you can go to.
PD is pushing for accuracy. While Turn10 is not IMO. There are already indications. From the laggy non-precise steering wheel, inacuracy of tracks, no cockpit view, impossible camera angles, etc.

I respect your opinion. You seemed to understand my point about the way certain physics engines are coded. And I hope that GT goes the LFS way one day.

I'm just irritated when I look at Forza 2 overall. I didn't want to nit pick. I pointed out in other threads about how the Ring is still wrong in many ways. For me, its not how many poly people are displayed off track, its the accuracy on the black stuff.
This is not pointed towards you. But if you are willing to accept that the track is close enough, then there is no point in me discussing with you.

The attitude of Turn10 turns me off.
I think you are wasting you money if you support them. PD's leader is a great man, with even greater vision.
He loves driving cars like us, and wants to make the best game so he can play it.
Wait 2-3 months for anouncements from PD, and I think you will be glad.

 

[dan_gtp]

I would like to point out that the brake glowing in Forza 2 is totally unrealistic. Road cars do not the ability to brake so strong that they glow that much.
Even Ferrari's, only after you upgrade your brakes do they start to improve dramaticallly.

The steering wheel is so laggy and slow, that you can hardly make quick enough corrections. I consider the DFP slow too by the way, only the G25 gets close to realistic.
If you want a bit of fun, paint some cars, play with controller, then fine. But this game is worthless if you want to learn about driving. Any skills you learn in this game will be useless in any true sim, or real life IMO.
I have raced Grand prix legends, and Live for speed, and have reached the top level in speed. Forza 2 is a joke, false advertising, misinformation.
After feedback from close friends of mine with a lot of driving ability/experience, i'm convinced that i've lost all respect for turn10.

 

[scandisk]

I'm just irritated when I look at Forza 2 overall. I didn't want to nit pick. I pointed out in other threads about how the Ring is still wrong in many ways. For me, its not how many poly people are displayed off track, its the accuracy on the black stuff.

The attitude of Turn10 turns me off.
I think you are wasting you money if you support them. PD's leader is a great man, with even greater vision.
He loves driving cars like us, and wants to make the best game so he can play it.
Wait 2-3 months for anouncements from PD, and I think you will be glad.

You are just waaaay too patriotic, to the point of blindness. And why are you so irritated with FM2? T10 didn't shove FM1 down in your throat. Why bother uber-criticizing a game if you don't like it anyway(criticisms do help, yours seems like full of bias)And regarding "Turn10's Attitude" I thinks it one of their marketing strategies. Don't get me wrong dude I loooooveee GT(MORE THAN ANY RACER), but your statements sound kind off unfair.

 

[Kent]

I just spent a ton of time looking at videos from both camps (so to speak).
Comparison videos of Forza2 and GTHD. It was interesting for sure.
After a bit of time I was convinced the only way I could make up my mind was by playing the games.
One video had GTHD drifting an old celica rally car with nothing but a third person view, only the sound from the game, and really bad driving. Then FM2 came on and it was hip music laid over a pre-rendered cut scene battle. It was funny to see the comparison because of how biased it was... On that note, I figured the GT side had to have biases to a similar extent (just an assumption as I didn't actually find a video of that nature supporting the PD camp)... None the less, it was indeed interesting.

At this point I'm just wondering if the game shop can make a demo playable for me or if I have to find a friend with either system.

 

[Mr P510]

I,m sorry,but the car models in those screens look so off (to me) that it's difficult to identify exactly what models they are suppose to represent.
And no I'm not attacking anyone,just my opinion.

GT5 really has nothing to worry about at all.Wait and see.

 

[dunkee]

Let me sum up what I think everyone is expecting from PD..

20+ cars at a time all at least w/ GT:HD detail
Detailed cockpit view
Revised physics engine
Supreme AI
Online play
Realtime weather and lighting changes
Realistic damage
Livery and body editors
A **** load of cars..
[EDIT] oh and them damn skid marks and reverse lights =P

Now if PD can get at least 3 of any on that least, it will undoubtly be king of everything in my book...but the fact that the demo could only play w/ one car at a time leaves me very skeptical. I will "wait and see" but luckily I will enjoy Forza 2 while I wait Until PD gives something to go off on, all I could do is feel sorry for "you guys".

 

[97modman]

I,m sorry,but the car models in those screens look so off (to me) that it's difficult to identify exactly what models they are suppose to represent.
And no I'm not attacking anyone,just my opinion.

GT5 really has nothing to worry about at all.Wait and see.

If this statement is true then you do not know anything about cars buddy..

1. was a vw GTI
2. F50, GTI and the Koneg in the front missing the front bumper and a Zonda chasing F50 and GTI.
3. Front damage to a VW R32 the emblem lets you know that.
4.Peugot 207 taking a different approach to a turn.
5.Mini Cooper S
6.Hood View
7.a Highly modded 430..Ferrari..

I have been following this thread for a few days now and i cant believe people are judging on a game that is not even out yet..I am a GT fan from the 1st copy on PS one..and i will admit that GT4 i played till about last year..never owned Forza 1 and was never into it because i felt it was very sloppy..and i wont compare GT4 to FM2 because you just cant..FM2 to GT5 yes but the game has no demo nor has anyone played it.

Now FF to now..i have played forza 2 demo and being that i have had track experience every year, i get to learn something new about my car and that something has changed with the parts that i have upgraded. Thats the feeling i got from the Forza 2 demo. You learn about the car that you were in more and more lap after lap.

I think its a great competitor to the GT series. GT series has been around for a while Turn 10 not as long and look at the progress they have made a giant step forward in console racing sim. By the time GT5 comes out FM3 will be around or in the making..then we can compare