A GT4 copy and a DFP or G25 is probably the best combo you can have on a PS2 and it's going to stay like that for a loooong time...
...There is no game which comes even close to the real Nurburgring as in GT4, and I've seen a lot of Nurburgring versions in games...
I bug a lot of people on this, and it isn't really on-topic, but you should give Enthusia Professional Racing a try. Since you feel GT4's physics are "garbage compared to GT3," you may like what Enthusia has to offer -- I think it's the best of any console game, and I know Scaff and Live4speed think it's at least on-par with GT4 -- and the version of the Nürburgring it has, though flat and bumpless, is actually a bit more accurate in terms of the elevation changes and corner geometry.
PM me or check out
GTP's Enthusia forum if you want to know more, just so we can keep this thread on-topic.
Are you going to start making damage models on all those 700 cars? Exactly! Then GT4 wouldn't be in stores before 2007!
Poly deformation is an automatic process that doesn't require separate "damage models," and it's been used as a form of damage for a long time -- the earliest game I can think of that had it was Viper Racing, a PC game that came out in 1998. There's no reason why GT4, or GT5 for that matter, couldn't/can't use it.
For me, PD pushed the PS2's performance to the limits, limits so high that no one could've thought a PS2 was able to deliver such outstanding graphics.
For me, PD pushed the PS2's performance
too close to the limit, and it was absolutely annoying to see them half-ass the game because of it. If they had concentrated just a
bit less on pretty graphics, we may have been able to see more than 6 cars on-track (Tourist Trophy was even worse, only allowing 2 or 4 bikes depending on the track), or use convertible/open-top cars in a full-grid race, or have interior views, or have weather effects, etc...
The list goes on, and you only have to take a look at some of the other PS2 games that
have these things to see that it could have been done.
What we think about GT4's physics doesn't matter anymore, you must consider that the latest game from PD isn't GT4, it is GTHD (it is a demo, I know, but it has cars you can drive, hasn't it?)
I've never tried this one because I don't have a pS3 (I'll buy it only when GT5 or EPR2 - hopefully - are released), but, and I know wolfe will appreciate these news, one of my best friends and the best "gamedriver" I personally know already bought the PS3, and told me that the behaviour of the cars in GTHD is closer to what we get in EPR and, in any case, a lot better than in GT4.
So, GT4 is now history and irrelevant. What I would like to know is how do you compare GTHD's physics and FM2 physics. Knowing that PD can still improve (and most certainly will do it) the physics engine from GTHD to GT5.
The only problem here is that there are very few people here who can vouch for GTHD's physics, much less
both GTHD's and FM2's. That, and as Kent and *McLaren* pointed out, you're the first person I know of who's said that GTHD is significantly different from GT4.
So while comparing GTHD to Forza 2 may be more "fair," it's a bit inconvenient in the case of this thread, I'd say.
*a bunch of stuff about GT4's physics*
The tyre physics is imo, one of the most important aspects of a good simulation, without thoes not much else matters because it will all be off regradless.
I agree,
natürlich.
...or in sims like GPL & LFS (GTRx is rubbish in my opinion, because of the underlying physics engine from EA)
You might be interested to know that GPL is actually based on the same engine that GTR uses. Same with rFactor. Also, EA didn't develop it, ISI (the makers of rFactor) did.
I'm with you on this one, the ISI engine just doesn't do it for me. Live for Speed FTW...
GT4 is massively wrong, I agree with you Wolf, and Forza 2 is also wrong because they base their driving model/code around wrong principles, so they adjust codes to replicate/sim certain aspects. Very similar to what GTR devs do. I'm a purist, so I don't like that idea.
I agree. I really hope that GT5 and other future console driving simulators make the switch to a fully independent, component-based physics engine, like the one that Live for Speed and Enthusia use. Anything else will always be inferior.
The big flaw I want to point out is in GT4/Forza is the transition from understeer-neutral-oversteer. In most high power RWD cars, you can control the yawn of the car in a certain way if you have the talent. In GT4 I've noticed its almost impossible. I'm not talking about your over the top drifting style. But the small angles the car can rotate. If you watch Fifth Gear, Tiff does this very well when he isn't drifting the car like a madman to show off.
I know exactly what you're talking about, and I still say Forza 2 does surprisingly well with it. It still isn't simulated correctly yet, but Turn10 took a step in the right direction.
From my point of view, if the devs at Turn10 and PD don't get this right, the games will never provide the purist drivers the experience they hope for. If the sim is not realistic, the drivers with more talent can't exploit their skills over the average. And that is not fair.
What is the point of tuning your Silvia or buying a supercar Ferrari if you can't drive them the way they are meant to?
That is what it comes down to. The pure fun driving experience is king. All else is bull****.
Forza 2 is massively improved over Forza 1, and if GT5 can make the same sort of progess, it would be a great step in the right direction.
Dan.
Agreed.
The point that is not being taken into account IMO is the superiority of the PS wheels.
Good point, but that has more to do with a realistic "feel" or immersion than physics, which remain the same regardless of control input.