Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[McLaren]

I'm not saying that Forza 2 is only about visual customization. I have played Forza 1 (a lot) for over 2 years, so I'm pretty familiar with what Forza is about. What I am saying is that Forza 2 seems to have put a lot of time & energy into increasing the level of visual customization, (as well as performance customization) - Turn10 talks about it a lot in their comments & promotion. Presumably, all this customization comes at the cost of other things, like better graphics.

Actually, graphics didn't take a toll for anything else. In fact, 12 cars to 8, and other things were sacrificed for better graphics at 60FPS.

 

[Biggles]

Forza 2 is what a sequel should be, it's a better game overall. It doesn't have as many tracks as Forza 1, but when they're so much better to drive on so what. Forza 2 improves on Forza 1 in the following areas and more...
Graphics
Physics
Sounds
Content (every area except for track count, there's more cars, more mods etc)
Mechanical customisation and tuning
Visual customisation and tuning
Telemetary

I would agree 100%. Forza 2 is a pretty good sequel to Forza...
except for one thing: it's a sequel on a vastly more powerful platform. If Forza 2 were an Xbox game, it would be a great sequel & I would buy it in a second. As it is, I have to buy the 360, a new wheel & the game, so I need a pretty compelling reason to do that.

Not to beat this to death, but my major compaint against F2 is not enough new content ie. new "environments" (tracks), & (not as major, but still disappointing), so-so graphics & those weird replay angles.

Similarly, when GT5 eventually comes along, it's going to have to represent a whole lot bigger step forward than GT4 was from GT3.

 

[Stoffinator]

To me its more like Forza is battling Toca series more then GT.

 

[Wolfe]

Of course, that said... I don't exactly trust your evaluation after reading what you've just said about GT4.
Maybe it's because I'm a super pro with GT4 who runs every car with ease (although I doubt that) but much of what you said is contrary to everything I've seen.
Just as a few points... Lift-off oversteer, braking oversteer, power oversteer... All are present... JGTC NSX ("L.O.O.S."), RGT ("B.O."), McLaren F1 ("P.O.S.")... (I love the letters those make when abbreviating)...

Back up a sec, here. Those are all powerful, (relatively) lightweight supercars and racecars. They also all have mid- or rear-mounted engines, which greatly affects their handling balance. Remember, I said that lift-off oversteer, braking oversteer, and power oversteer didn't work as they should, not that they're utterly impossible.

Instead of relying on a powerful, lightweight, imbalanced car to achieve the various forms of oversteer, you should be able to do everything with a modestly powerful sporty FR. But it doesn't work right.

If a picture says a thousand words, then this 5-minute video should say more than enough (although the words wash out on the sky now and then):

Both the Mustang and Supra were stock, with default settings, N2 tires, and all driving aids turned off, and I always use the Dual Shock 2.

Before you reply with something to the effect of "poorly driving any car can create understeer," I'd like to pre-empt by stating that I don't think I'm that bad at the game, and that poor driving doesn't lead to just understeer and nothing else.....okay, so in GT4 it leads to understeer and nothing else, but in real life oversteer is also very likely.

To me its more like Forza is battling Toca series more then GT.

Battling the TOCA series? That's like beating up a kid in a wheelchair.

If Forza wanted to stoop down to the TOCA series' level, it'd have to remove all of its roadcars, dumb down the physics and make them super-floaty, remove its entire customization system, and tack on some story mode where you play as a whiny brat that no one likes.

I apologize if you like TOCA, but I think Turn10 deserves more credit than that.

 

[m7ammed]

that video nails all what is wrong GT4 , hits the spot

 

[Kent]

While I appreciate the confrontation, the fact that my examples were wrote-off is enough to show me that any further debating would be todological. 👍

Back to the battle between forza and gt if we can!

Btw, this is an edit replacing a fairly long post with negative tones and confrontational criticisms.
(felt it would be best to avoid that and instead, keep the thread as close to topic as possible)

 

[Wolfe]

While I appreciate the confrontation, the fact that my examples were wrote-off is enough to show me that any further debating would be todological. 👍

That was no simple write-off. It was a statement of clarity, referring to a point that you misunderstood:

Power oversteer, shift-lock oversteer, lift-off oversteer...none of it works as it should.

I.e., "it doesn't work the right way."

Instead of relying on a powerful, lightweight, imbalanced car to achieve the various forms of oversteer, you should be able to do everything with a modestly powerful sporty FR. But it doesn't work right.

I would be foolish to claim that oversteer is absolutely nonexistant in GT4, especially with the GT4 Drifting forum only a few clicks away, and it may very well be true that the NSX, F1, and RGT exhibit the forms of oversteer I mentioned (if I had GT4 around I'd try it myself).

However, the existence of oversteer doesn't prove physics accuracy all by itself (otherwise Ridge Racer and OutRun 2 would be "sims"). It has to happen for the right reasons, under the right conditions.

Btw, this is an edit replacing a fairly long post with negative tones and confrontational criticisms.
(felt it would be best to avoid that and instead, keep the thread as close to topic as possible)

It's alright, I saw your original post and know that you called my driving into question. You're not the first (that video is by far my most "notorious" on YouTube). What you and the others fail to realize is that precision driving was not necessary here, and I'm certainly not going to put a whole lot of effort into the driving in a video discussing the flaws of a game I can't stand to play for any reason, am I?

Anyone who believes that heavy-footed pedal work and rough steering will only ever lead to understeer (as it did in the video) in real life is sorely mistaken. If I drove the same way in reality as I did in that video, I'd be all over the track, oversteering and spinning out. What did GT4 do? Understeer...understeer...understeer...it should be becoming clear how all of this is relevant to what Joey D originally said:

I didn't really like the physics of GT4 because every car had understeer which isn't true to life.

To summarize, yes, the driving in that video was poor, probably the worst I've ever done. But it proved my points, and that's all that was needed. Besides, it would be rather difficult for me to demonstrate how understeer and oversteer are incorrect without trying to get understeer/oversteer, would it not? I don't think the "LOL GT4 UNDERSTEERS SO MUCH WATCH ME GO AROUND THIS CORNER WITHOUT A PROBLEM" approach would have helped my case...

Back to the battle between forza and gt if we can!

I realize you're not really into physics debates like this, Kent, and there's no problem if you want to back out, but the faults of Gran Turismo 4 are very relevant to a thread comparing the GT franchise to the Forza franchise. There's no "back to the battle." This is the battle.

I'd be glad to discuss the other half -- the flaws of either or both Forza games.

 

[snipersnake]

I am a regular Joe, followed GT series from PS era, bought PS2 for GT3 and will buy PS3 for GT5. Until now i am still driving in GT4

About my forza series experience..

i got xbox for forza 1...then i had to sell it back again to a friend. that was the worst mistake of my life, for me other than custom tunes and bodykits, the game blew. the graphics were terrible, the sounds of the screeching tyres were unbearable, the physics were just lame, the damage..lets just say i have the thoughest front lamp for my EVO8 (hit a wall, the bonnet smashed but the lights were great!)

then a buddy of mine dropped by my house to upgrade his xbox360's firmware and he brought the FM2 along as well..(he dont have no BB connection).Like the devil himself, he tempted my with the game...and my oh my...like one of you guys said, PD has a lot of work in front of them.

I hopped into sim mode, tackling the track with EVO8 (i am an evo whore) ..then I tried the online setup, which was a breeze..i felt EXACTLY at home. the controls, the graphics the sound..everything. Please bear in mind that I do not have the pansy ass HDTV, I only have my Sony Trinitron (am poor) and even on the CRT tube, it looked awesome..NOT LIKE FM1.

Too bad in my place kids are just to busy painting their cars rather than racing themselves, and if they hop online, its bumpercar motorsports.

maybe they do not know how forza has lept since a lot of them also play HALO, and for that, I forgive them.

i am now in a limbo wether to buy a 360 for just this ONE game. saving up for a ps3..so i dont know..only time will tell.

dont get me wrong, i will buy a ps3, thats my new year's resolution (getting a ps3 before August) but FM2 really disturbs my intended purchase.

 

[m7ammed]

I am a regular Joe, followed GT series from PS era, bought PS2 for GT3 and will buy PS3 for GT5. Until now i am still driving in GT4

About my forza series experience..

i got xbox for forza 1...then i had to sell it back again to a friend. that was the worst mistake of my life, for me other than custom tunes and bodykits, the game blew. the graphics were terrible, the sounds of the screeching tyres were unbearable, the physics were just lame, the damage..lets just say i have the thoughest front lamp for my EVO8 (hit a wall, the bonnet smashed but the lights were great!)

then a buddy of mine dropped by my house to upgrade his xbox360's firmware and he brought the FM2 along as well..(he dont have no BB connection).Like the devil himself, he tempted my with the game...and my oh my...like one of you guys said, PD has a lot of work in front of them.

I hopped into sim mode, tackling the track with EVO8 (i am an evo whore) ..then I tried the online setup, which was a breeze..i felt EXACTLY at home. the controls, the graphics the sound..everything. Please bear in mind that I do not have the pansy ass HDTV, I only have my Sony Trinitron (am poor) and even on the CRT tube, it looked awesome..NOT LIKE FM1.

Too bad in my place kids are just to busy painting their cars rather than racing themselves, and if they hop online, its bumpercar motorsports.

maybe they do not know how forza has lept since a lot of them also play HALO, and for that, I forgive them.

i am now in a limbo wether to buy a 360 for just this ONE game. saving up for a ps3..so i dont know..only time will tell.

dont get me wrong, i will buy a ps3, thats my new year's resolution (getting a ps3 before August) but FM2 really disturbs my intended purchase.

to make your choice easier ,with so much little news about GT5 I'm guessing it won't be out until 2008 so I would say move your PS3 resolution to 2008

 

[Biggles]

No question that Forza 2 is a good game: it's probably superior to GT4 in every department (except one - wheel support). No question that if I already had a 360 I would buy it in a heartbeat.

The question is: is it a good enough racing game to make it worth buying a 360, if you're only going to get one "next-gen" console?

I think it's already pretty clear that F2, while a very good effort, is not going to be one of the defining games for the 360 in the way that the GT series has been for the PS2.

My suspicion is that when GT5 finally comes along it will be a hell of a step up from GT4 & a superior game to Forza 2. In the meantime, as a newcoer to GT4, I'm enjoying all the new content it has to offer & the impressive G25 wheel, & trying hard not to lust after Forza 2...

 

[Bram Turismo]

Woah, I saw a similar thread months ago, maybe a year (Or this the one?!). Anyway, I haven't played Forza once so I'm not going to bash Forza, that's for sure because I don't know how the gameplay is. However, from what I've seen on the screenshots, the game looks amazing...On topic then, I don't think a real discussion with equal weapons is possible here; Forza is on another platform, a newer platform, capable of better performance than the PS2. In my opinion, PD did an amazing job on GT4. Though the physics are garbage compared to GT3 (Though an extremely high arcade feel, lots of fun with oversteer), PD included ever so small details on both cars and tracks, even performance (Prius issue), it all makes up for the lazy oversteer engine. A GT4 copy and a DFP or G25 is probably the best combo you can have on a PS2 and it's going to stay like that for a loooong time. The DFP is ever so smooth with this game, you can do with your car whatever you want it to do, which is both positive and negative. For me, nothing beats the feel of GT4 on real life tracks. There is no game which comes even close to the real Nurburgring as in GT4, and I've seen a lot of Nurburgring versions in games. La Sarthe is another track which is ever so close as in real life, it's nearly as if you were driving a real GT-One on there! And then there is the detail of the cars, which is, undiscussable, incredible. All of those sponsors and numbers on the racecars are very accurate, as far as I know. Given the fact that there are 700 cars in this game, makes the race offer very large, large enough not too get bored with this game for a while. However, what's bringing GT4 down is the damage, something which shouldn't get GT4 down. None of the GT games had damage, though it was possible which GT1, 2 and 3 which a little bit more work. But in GT4, who needs damage on all those 700 cars and on 50 tracks, who even cares? Well, a lot of people. But think like this: Are you going to start making damage models on all those 700 cars? Exactly! Then GT4 wouldn't be in stores before 2007! GT4 is for the pure car enthusiast, if you want damage, go and buy TOCA, if you want visual customization, go and buy NFS...For me, PD pushed the PS2's performance to the limits, limits so high that no one could've thought a PS2 was able to deliver such outstanding graphics.

Onto Forza then, before biasing, we definitly need to wait untill GT5 comes out. From the screenshots, Forza 2 was nowhere near GTHD in terms of detail and screen quality...PD has already said a bigger car field should be on its way in GT5 + I've heard GT5 will include changing weather conditions. Just by these 2, I think I've already made my dicision for my next platform purchase. But then again, I'm yet to give Forza a try...

 

[Leonidae]

and what is the point of comparing next gen game to previous gen game? GT4 is a couple years old game, and you compare that to brand new FM2. that's bit like racing a Lotus Elise against Caparo T1, if you get the idea. Elise was best thing out there when it came out, but now it's getting competitors. when GT5 comes out, the situation will be reversed again. GT5, on new PS3 will beat FM2/360.. atleast that is my opinion. and I rather have delayed and well done game than a game that isn't complete as it comes out.

and no, I didn't say that FM2 isn't complete. FM-series just doesn't suit my taste. vinyls, bodykits etc, they should be left for NFS-series, unless one is building a racer instead of ricer.

 

[Joey D]

vinyls, bodykits etc, they should be left for NFS-series, unless one is building a racer instead of ricer.

Which a lot of people do in Forza, you know build racecars. If you do not want to put body kits and vinyls on your car you don't have to, unlike NFS which makes you in order to really complete the game. I'm sick of people saying that they think Forza is a ricer game because you can put a body kit on your car and do vinyls...yet a large proportion of those people want it in GT5.

Also you'll never be able to compare Forza to GT because GT5 probably won't be out until the summer of 2008 if there aren't any delays. That's a whole year away which is a lot of development time. But on the flip side you shouldn't be comparing Forza to GT4 or really even GTHD (it's not a full game). Plus what's the point of comparing the two games? If you have both a PS3 and a 360 you'd be stupid not to own both games (once GT5 comes out) I know as soon as I get enough money saved up I will be buying a PS3 because I'm missing out on some great games.

 

[Dave A]

The comparison is between the franchises. Not game v game per-se. The reason forza 2 is being compared GT4 is simply because that's all there is to compare it with. That said, we're not talking graphics and car grids here, we're talking physics. The main point of the debate is not "is Forza 2 a better game than GT4?" Rather, it's a case of how much work PD have got to make sure GT5 really is the dogs becuse of Forza 2. And Leonidae, you do turn road cars into racers in Forza 2, GT1 and GT2 both had bodykits and vinals, you just had little control over them. Forza 2 simply lets you pick the parts. Sure you can make a ricer looking car, if thats you thing, but you can also replicate the BTCC Astra is that's more to your liking. Forza 2 is far more open to everyone. So you say it's not your thing unless your building a racer, well in Forza 2 that's your choice. So I guess by your logic now, your NFS comment is suddenly invalid.

 

[m7ammed]

I've never played Forza 1 , but GT4 AI sucks bigh time and its one of the reason a lot of people get bored , because there is no challange and you get hit by a stupid AI ... if they would have intorduced online gamig AI wouldn't be a problem as racing people is always fun , I would give up 700 cars and good graphics , for a really really good AI and better physics

 

[Kent]

I give up... What can I say, we just don't agree on too much (atleast there is a little bit to agree on).

 

[Hun200kmh]

What we think about GT4's physics doesn't matter anymore, you must consider that the latest game from PD isn't GT4, it is GTHD (it is a demo, I know, but it has cars you can drive, hasn't it?)

I've never tried this one because I don't have a pS3 (I'll buy it only when GT5 or EPR2 - hopefully - are released), but, and I know wolfe will appreciate these news, one of my best friends and the best "gamedriver" I personally know already bought the PS3, and told me that the behaviour of the cars in GTHD is closer to what we get in EPR and, in any case, a lot better than in GT4.

So, GT4 is now history and irrelevant. What I would like to know is how do you compare GTHD's physics and FM2 physics. Knowing that PD can still improve (and most certainly will do it) the physics engine from GTHD to GT5.

 

[Kent]

Those are intelligent points to make Hun200kmh. 👍
Comparing FM2 and GT4 is not what many, if any of us here want to do.
Of course, with that said, I must admit that you are the first person I've heard talking about GTHD using different physics than GT4 (even if only slightly different).

I'm interested to see what else comes out about GTHD's physics as I am sure they are representative of an early stage of development for GT5's physics.

 

[Dave A]

I have to say, I'm with Wolfe when it comes to GT4's physics being wrong. There major killer in GT4 is the grip transition, it's hopelessly wrong. The way cars go from full grip to zero grip is almost digital in GT4, there's very little gradience between the changes. At least there's no where near as much as there should be. I've seen Scaff and Wolfe debating over the pro's and con's of GT4 and EPR's physics engines and for the most part, I agree with Scaff when he says that GT4 and EPR are very close, too close to call, they just fail and succeed in different ways. GT4 doesn't simulate oversteer properly, but I feel that is largly thnks to the flawed grip levels. People say "well drive with N2's" and I say "I do, and the grip is still wrong". As Already pointed out, GT4 doesn't simulate torque steer, which has a big impact on a cars ability when exiting a corner or initially accelerating off the line. GT4 just ploughs on the understeer. I'm certainly not the best GT4 driver out there, but I'm competent enough and know who to read racing lines, how to judge throttle and brake levels and what not, I'm good enough to know what should and shouldn't cause a car to understeer or oversteer. The problem with GT4 is that thoes conditions don't match my real world driving experience. And before anyone step in to say "but you don't do this or that driving to work" no I don't, but I have driven fast on a track before, I have driven a lightweight sportscar before, and I have owned a car in GT4 before which is nothing like it is in GT4 to drive.

Take a 64bhp hatchback, in GT4 you'll nail the throttle on the start, you might, just might get a little squak and away you go. Take that to real life and you floor the throttle, lift the clutch and you get rubber being burnt, not just a little squeak but proper tyre spinning. And thats from a 64bhp runaround. Cars are powerful even in entry form, GT4 doesn't indicate that, and again I point that problem down to no torque steer and no gradiance in the tyres grip levels. Take that same hatch and lift off round a high speed corner while within your front tyres grip limits and the back end is liable to loosen up and you'll get lift off oversteer. Nothing in GT4 simulates this on that level. In GT4 it takes a lot more effort than realitity requires, and imo it also features an awful tyre model which EPR does a lot better with (at least with the road cars I don't have much experience with the race cars on the slicks in EPR). Forza 2 improves the tyre physics further and simulates different levels of heat in different areas of the tyres, and also changes the tyre pressure through the race. The tyre physics is imo, one of the most important aspects of a good simulation, without thoes not much else matters because it will all be off regradless.

 

[Kent]

I definately agree that tire grip levels in GT4 are off. 👍
I used to be really anti-normal tires and was often the target of the "well use N2s" comments.
The consistancy of GT4's tire-grip seems to be poorly defined. That is to say, the level of grip with identical tires seems to unexplainably change from car to car. I'm guessing this is because each car recieves some kind of basic "grip" value and tires then manipulate that value. I find this to be most evident with cars like the Supra RZ compared to similar cars such as the TVR Cerbera Speed 6 (amongst atleast a few others).

Regarding "Grip Transition" I'm going to have to say "no comment."

Now, regarding the 64bhp MR street car on N2s...
I'm not very knowledgable on the subject as I have not spend much time playing GT4 using low powered vehicles. About as slow as I go is 200hp in a FF. (sports tires of course )

In any case, I suppose this all comes up to the inevitable... "I hope they do a better job with Tire Grip Levels in GT5." (of course, that's not to say I was too disappointed with GT4's).

 

[Dave A]

At the end of the day, Forza 2 has stepped up it's game, if GT5 does then the buyers are the winners. Comeptition in this case, will hopefully be beneficial.

 

[m7ammed]

one area where I think Turn10 has beaten PD is connecting with its fans, I admire them for having pitpass reports ....etc, PD seems if like they don't care about us fans who want it to be the best game out there , they don't give news or hints or anything , I've been searching the net last week looking for some good soild news on GT5 and found nothing most of whats out there is speculation. And GTHD is not good enough , one car lapping a single track is not good enough.

The way I see if you go into a dealership and you wanted to buy a car , wouldn't you be pissed if the salesman ignored , you would think hell there is another car company out there that would treat me like I should be treated and I will just by from them.

I own a PS3 and an Xbox and I already have forza and I will be surely getting GT5 even if it sucked lol, but hell its GT4 release all over again and they seem to have learned nothing and this is why I'm afriad they might have learnt nothing from GT4 and Gt5 wont be a big step from GT4 ..... hopefully they will prove me wrong

 

[Kent]

Personally, I think the Fan Treatment by PD has been so bad that many of us are switching sides for no other reason than impatience (although I this point I feel the impatience is well founded).

After taking into consideration everything all the people here and in other places have said... I'm only holding back on buying a 360 because I want a good Nurburgring. 💡
I can keep my PS2 and still play GT4!

Guys, I'm not sure about this, but just now I may have convinced myself to buy a 360 and Forza2 (and halo 3 when that's out)... It just seems to me that the 360 is there right now with atleast 1 game I know I will love (halo)... With the possibility of others and the PS3 only giving me the garuntee of a GT game...

Sounds like I need to discuss these thoughts over in the 360 forums.

 

[m7ammed]

Personally, I think the Fan Treatment by PD has been so bad that many of us are switching sides for no other reason than impatience (although I this point I feel the impatience is well founded).

After taking into consideration everything all the people here and in other places have said... I'm only holding back on buying a 360 because I want a good Nurburgring. 💡
I can keep my PS2 and still play GT4!

Guys, I'm not sure about this, but just now I may have convinced myself to buy a 360 and Forza2 (and halo 3 when that's out)... It just seems to me that the 360 is there right now with atleast 1 game I know I will love (halo)... With the possibility of others and the PS3 only giving me the garuntee of a GT game...

Sounds like I need to discuss these thoughts over in the 360 forums.

the easiest thing to do is to buy both , thats what I did. Everybody should be enjoying what both consoles have to offer if the can Xbox has got some good games and so does/will the PS3 .... if you can't get the Xbox now (more game selection) .... PS3 later when more games you like are out

 

[McLaren]

What we think about GT4's physics doesn't matter anymore, you must consider that the latest game from PD isn't GT4, it is GTHD (it is a demo, I know, but it has cars you can drive, hasn't it?)

Wait, you don't want us to compare Forza 2 physics to GT4's, but to GT:HD's?

Um, am I the only one who sees something off? That's like doing the samething since all GT:HD is, is a polished GT4 engine. Everything you got in the GT4 engine is pretty much all these in the GT:HD demo with the physics only appearing to be easier to drift on.

 

[dan_gtp]

A few things I like to point out.

If you have years of experience driving high performance/light weight RWD cars on race tracks/go-karting, or in sims like GPL & LFS (GTRx is rubbish in my opinion, because of the underlying physics engine from EA).
And then you use a DFP/G25 and play GT4/Forza1-2, you will see the flaws within your first flying lap pushing the limits, no questions.
GT4 is massively wrong, I agree with you Wolf, and Forza 2 is also wrong because they base their driving model/code around wrong principles, so they adjust codes to replicate/sim certain aspects. Very similar to what GTR devs do. I'm a purist, so I don't like that idea.

I've never been a technical kind of driver when it comes to driving. I race go-karts competition for fun, and I'm quick. I've always been in the quickest group in realistic racing sims. I don't really know exactly why to be onest, I don't analyse my driving or work on setup, it comes naturally.
I like to believe I know most of the time what happens to a car when it is pushed in a certain way, and how to react.

The big flaw I want to point out is in GT4/Forza is the transition from understeer-neutral-oversteer. In most high power RWD cars, you can control the yawn of the car in a certain way if you have the talent. In GT4 I've noticed its almost impossible. I'm not talking about your over the top drifting style. But the small angles the car can rotate. If you watch Fifth Gear, Tiff does this very well when he isn't drifting the car like a madman to show off.
Or even watch Lewis Hamilton driving a modern F1 car in a way that is revolutionary.

From my point of view, if the devs at Turn10 and PD don't get this right, the games will never provide the purist drivers the experience they hope for. If the sim is not realistic, the drivers with more talent can't exploit their skills over the average. And that is not fair.
What is the point of tuning your Silvia or buying a supercar Ferrari if you can't drive them the way they are meant to?
That is what it comes down to. The pure fun driving experience is king. All else is bull****.
Forza 2 is massively improved over Forza 1, and if GT5 can make the same sort of progess, it would be a great step in the right direction.

Dan.

 

[ChromeBallz]

Forza = XBox.

GT = Playstation.

Neither game will influence the sales of their respective consoles enough for the consoles to influence the sales of the games (and declare a winner that way).

Neither is a direct competitor to each other for this very simple reason, i'd say - And even then, Forza does seem to be a rather different game than GT. It's like the old debate: Quake 3 or Unreal Tournament?

 

[Biggles]

The point that is not being taken into account IMO is the superiority of the PS wheels.

 

[Wolfe]

A GT4 copy and a DFP or G25 is probably the best combo you can have on a PS2 and it's going to stay like that for a loooong time...

...There is no game which comes even close to the real Nurburgring as in GT4, and I've seen a lot of Nurburgring versions in games...

I bug a lot of people on this, and it isn't really on-topic, but you should give Enthusia Professional Racing a try. Since you feel GT4's physics are "garbage compared to GT3," you may like what Enthusia has to offer -- I think it's the best of any console game, and I know Scaff and Live4speed think it's at least on-par with GT4 -- and the version of the Nürburgring it has, though flat and bumpless, is actually a bit more accurate in terms of the elevation changes and corner geometry.

PM me or check out GTP's Enthusia forum if you want to know more, just so we can keep this thread on-topic.

Are you going to start making damage models on all those 700 cars? Exactly! Then GT4 wouldn't be in stores before 2007!

Poly deformation is an automatic process that doesn't require separate "damage models," and it's been used as a form of damage for a long time -- the earliest game I can think of that had it was Viper Racing, a PC game that came out in 1998. There's no reason why GT4, or GT5 for that matter, couldn't/can't use it.

For me, PD pushed the PS2's performance to the limits, limits so high that no one could've thought a PS2 was able to deliver such outstanding graphics.

For me, PD pushed the PS2's performance too close to the limit, and it was absolutely annoying to see them half-ass the game because of it. If they had concentrated just a bit less on pretty graphics, we may have been able to see more than 6 cars on-track (Tourist Trophy was even worse, only allowing 2 or 4 bikes depending on the track), or use convertible/open-top cars in a full-grid race, or have interior views, or have weather effects, etc...

The list goes on, and you only have to take a look at some of the other PS2 games that have these things to see that it could have been done.

What we think about GT4's physics doesn't matter anymore, you must consider that the latest game from PD isn't GT4, it is GTHD (it is a demo, I know, but it has cars you can drive, hasn't it?)

I've never tried this one because I don't have a pS3 (I'll buy it only when GT5 or EPR2 - hopefully - are released), but, and I know wolfe will appreciate these news, one of my best friends and the best "gamedriver" I personally know already bought the PS3, and told me that the behaviour of the cars in GTHD is closer to what we get in EPR and, in any case, a lot better than in GT4.

So, GT4 is now history and irrelevant. What I would like to know is how do you compare GTHD's physics and FM2 physics. Knowing that PD can still improve (and most certainly will do it) the physics engine from GTHD to GT5.

The only problem here is that there are very few people here who can vouch for GTHD's physics, much less both GTHD's and FM2's. That, and as Kent and *McLaren* pointed out, you're the first person I know of who's said that GTHD is significantly different from GT4.

So while comparing GTHD to Forza 2 may be more "fair," it's a bit inconvenient in the case of this thread, I'd say.

*a bunch of stuff about GT4's physics*

The tyre physics is imo, one of the most important aspects of a good simulation, without thoes not much else matters because it will all be off regradless.

I agree, natürlich.

...or in sims like GPL & LFS (GTRx is rubbish in my opinion, because of the underlying physics engine from EA)

You might be interested to know that GPL is actually based on the same engine that GTR uses. Same with rFactor. Also, EA didn't develop it, ISI (the makers of rFactor) did.

I'm with you on this one, the ISI engine just doesn't do it for me. Live for Speed FTW...

GT4 is massively wrong, I agree with you Wolf, and Forza 2 is also wrong because they base their driving model/code around wrong principles, so they adjust codes to replicate/sim certain aspects. Very similar to what GTR devs do. I'm a purist, so I don't like that idea.

I agree. I really hope that GT5 and other future console driving simulators make the switch to a fully independent, component-based physics engine, like the one that Live for Speed and Enthusia use. Anything else will always be inferior.

The big flaw I want to point out is in GT4/Forza is the transition from understeer-neutral-oversteer. In most high power RWD cars, you can control the yawn of the car in a certain way if you have the talent. In GT4 I've noticed its almost impossible. I'm not talking about your over the top drifting style. But the small angles the car can rotate. If you watch Fifth Gear, Tiff does this very well when he isn't drifting the car like a madman to show off.

I know exactly what you're talking about, and I still say Forza 2 does surprisingly well with it. It still isn't simulated correctly yet, but Turn10 took a step in the right direction.

From my point of view, if the devs at Turn10 and PD don't get this right, the games will never provide the purist drivers the experience they hope for. If the sim is not realistic, the drivers with more talent can't exploit their skills over the average. And that is not fair.
What is the point of tuning your Silvia or buying a supercar Ferrari if you can't drive them the way they are meant to?
That is what it comes down to. The pure fun driving experience is king. All else is bull****.
Forza 2 is massively improved over Forza 1, and if GT5 can make the same sort of progess, it would be a great step in the right direction.

Dan.

Agreed.

The point that is not being taken into account IMO is the superiority of the PS wheels.

Good point, but that has more to do with a realistic "feel" or immersion than physics, which remain the same regardless of control input.

 

[dan_gtp]

Wolf,
I may be wrong again. But I remember trying a EA F1 game long ago. And I believe the physics engine from that game has progressed all the way to GTR.
Its utterly rubbish.
GPL however is on another level. This sim taught me many skills I still use to this day.

Concerning GT HD. I will vouch for it. I think its definitely improved over GT4.
When people talk of feeling, it is touch/sense? Your 2 hands is the closest contact to the feeling of a sim. What your eyes sees on screen is secondary.
This is why I keep pointing out that this is what holds Forza 2 back.

From my perspective. With the G25, cruising around in GT HD feels very real. But when you push it, there are still flaws. I tried GT4 hours latter and could tell the difference immediately. So its not small.
This is what I think GT4 did well as well, if your are not a pro that knows better, and you drive around easily enough below the limits, it felt quite real using the DFP. Even with all the flaws.
I still have hope for GT's future. Kaz's vision is not anywhere near realised yet.