Dodge Dart: DEAD?
- Thread starter CodeRedR51
- 624 comments
- 68,161 views
- 4,543
- Bay Area, CA
- Zenith113
They've changed the Dodge logo to look like their car's grilles?
Can't make my mind up about that red glow. I think I like it just because it's a neat touch on a car with lots of competition. Interior plastics still look iffy. Dash layout looks nice and fits the car well.
Can't make my mind up about that red glow. I think I like it just because it's a neat touch on a car with lots of competition. Interior plastics still look iffy. Dash layout looks nice and fits the car well.
- 27,257
- United Kingdom
And this from EVO on the DC2 Integra R:
From the Performance Heroes mag book. The Integra edged out cars like the Elan M100, Clio Trophy, Clio Williams and 205 GTI, as well as a bunch of other FWD cars that make all but the very best RWD cars feel pretty dull to drive. I tend to trust EVO reviews like that - when they spend their lives driving supercars and still say the ITR is one of the best cars of any sort they've driven, it's probably safe to say they know what they're on about.
Of course, the Dodge probably won't be one of the great handlers of this world but it certainly won't be bad (the Giulietta it's based on is more than respectable) and it certainly puts to bed the myth that FWD cars are automatically inferior to RWD.
Not to mention four-cylinder engines. Only one of EVO's FWD test had more than 4 cylinders, the Corrado VR6. More recently you might find the 5-cylinder Focus RS in the lineup, but they're exceptions to the rule. More often than not anything bigger than a 2-2.5-litre four cylinder in the nose of a FWD is just a boat anchor.
- 8,491
- Rockay City
And that power level has increased substantially over the years. There used to be a time where anything over 200HP for a FWD car would be considered crazy. Nowadays 200HP for an FWD is not that special, I suspect the turnaround point is somewhere around 300HP now (blatently disregarding weight here BTW). Plenty of FWD cars (at least on this side of the Atlantic) with 250HP+ that can whoop ass of similar specced RWD cars. Just because a RWD setup is superior in theory, doesn't mean it applies to any real-world specimen.
Though granted, you guys are missing out on a lot of the hot-hatch FWD madness that comes out here in Europe, so it doesn't surprise me that over on your side of the Atlantic, things appear a bit different to some.
The Mégane RS I own understeers less under power than the 350Z I owned earlier and is more fun (to me anyway
) too.
- 758
- Bandhead4life
Wow your like a year Late my man.... They been changed the Logo... that was the 1st New thing from Dodge under Fiat...
Dodge Stated that the Dart will be Highly customizable with 14 Interior Trim combinations, 6 wheel-design options, In addition to that, there will be hundreds of options and combinations offered through Mopar. and 12 Exterior Paint colors to choose from Mopar.
- 4,209
- Wasilla, AK
But that much difference?
I do have another explanation I remembered though. I recently discovered an old issue of CR in my basement, from July 1995. They used to describe their test procedures in much more detail than they do now, and at that point in time the acceleration tests were done from idle - no clutch abuse, neutral bombing, brake torquing, or otherwise revving up before launch. In other words, their test procedure doesn't exactly sync with what someone doing a hard launch might do, although it probably makes sense for a car they bought with donations and probably plan to sell when they get done with it. Anway, I can only assume they still do it the same way. So if the other magazines made more aggressive launches, it could account for a large fraction of the difference.
Even sans options, the newer ones just seem "too well finished" with high-quality materials (though not always good looking: fabrics with funky color patterns seem to be gaining popularity, and to me it makes the car look too effiminate). And, for some reason, a compact car becoming truly refined equates in my brain to said car being soulless and insulated. Like the manufacturer is trying to mix two things that were never meant to be mixed.
Why bother with leather in a cheap car? Seriously.
Even in a more expensive car, I never saw more than a very limited use for it. Can someone please tell me what's the point?
I guess that could be useful, but then I still use radio and CDs so I wouldn't know.
Ugh.
I didn't know. Most of my information on the equipment carried by new cars comes from CR, and most of the time, when they mention the electronic nannies on a compact, they're complaining about the rare car on which it's optional instead of standard. So I just assume the stability control can't be turned off unless the car has obvious performance bias.
Because burnouts are epic. That's non-negotiable, it doesn't matter where you live, they just are.
The point of FWD has never been a focus on performance, but instead for increased fuel economy and room within the cabin. Yet, as the design proliferated, engineers and other wizards of design have been able to make it work... In a substantial way no less. And so, we have gone from the Oldsmobile Toronado, to the Saab 900 Turbo... From the Alfa Romeo GTV[/quote]
I know that, they just haven't managed to make it work as well as rear-wheel-drive for handling. Any extra weight is made up for by the ability to steer with both the throttle and the brakes. Simply put, RWD offers the driver more techniques with which to fight physics himself, while a FWD car is pretty much a lost cause once the rear comes out.
Don't make me tell you how much I hate Hondas.
.
True, we never had a reason to bring in really small performance cars from Europe because we have more room to drive them and the gas prices weren't quite so nasty (now if only we'd extract our own oil instead of buying it all from the Middle East...), although truth be told a few Euro-American cars did make it back to their real home - and they were almost never the good ones.
I'm actually not surprised by that. If old episodes of Top Gear are to be believed, the 350Z was not a very well set up or fun to drive car at all. I'm suspecting more of a boulevard car than a true sports car.
- 27,257
- United Kingdom
Because people increasingly want comfort in even cheap vehicles. Same applies to all the other technologies mentioned.
This goes to show how little you know about FWD cars.
No, they aren't as adjustable as rear-drive cars in absolute terms, but really the one, single thing they can't do that RWD cars can is power oversteer - and even then, a great many RWD vehicles can't really power oversteer either unless you really provoke them.
The vast majority of RWD road cars have a safe, natural understeering setup. The best FWD cars - hot hatchbacks from Renault, for example - understeer significantly less, even under power, than most RWD cars.
As for "a lost cause once the rear comes out", that's absolute tosh. With small amounts of oversteer a very quick dab of countersteer is usually enough, or even a tiny amount of throttle. If you've got it massively sideways then the touring car technique of armfuls of opposite lock and pedal to the metal usually sorts them out:
Front-drive cars are massively more forgiving on the limit than rear-drive cars.
Unsurprisingly. Not only have you almost certainly not driven any, but that doesn't offset the fact that they've produced some of the world's best FWD chassis.
Two things:
1) Top Gear isn't motoring law. They have been known to exaggerate entirely for effect.
2) Read any review of the 350Z. Boulevard car it is not. It's a purpose-built sports car. The Megane RS being more fun to drive than a 350Z doesn't automatically mean the 350Z is a soft cruiser, it means the Megane is an incredibly good car to drive.
Once again, significant evidence suggests you know very little about what you're criticising. Your entire tone sounds like someone who's not even been around close to a good FWD car, let alone driven one. Or indeed, driven any car.
- 19,818
- Alabamamania
Most people don't exclusively drive their car on a race track, either. In most daily driving, even most "spirited" driving, there's almost no discernible difference between front and rear-wheel drive, for cars of comparative weights and power. Granted, that's until a FF car reaches about 3000 pounds, after it gets heavier, the burden increases and it takes Acura-ian miracles to get them to handle with any measure of confidence.
I know, you hate Hondas...probably all "rice burners" that aren't drift monsters. So as long as we're having a discussion, and your inherent and stated bias (without any empirical proof nor valued experience) comes into play, quit wasting our time with your arguments.
I know, you hate Hondas...probably all "rice burners" that aren't drift monsters. So as long as we're having a discussion, and your inherent and stated bias (without any empirical proof nor valued experience) comes into play, quit wasting our time with your arguments.
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- 4,209
- Wasilla, AK
It's surprising how close you've come... yes, rice burners have quite a bit to do with it. The Civic may well be the world's single most-often riced car. It simply just isn't that good for the number of people who swear by them. I mean, come on, most of them (at least the old ones) either have no power whatsoever or are reliant on VEETAK to produce power.
I even read something once about a kid whose parents bought him a Fox-body Mustang... and he would've rather had a Civic! Anyway, he either pressured his parents to buy him one, or bought it himself, and then sold the Mustang so he could buy a wing for said Civic. What's wrong with people these days?
Anyway, as to my biases against the Cruze. You know how Top Gear talks a lot about "X-factor"? The Cruze has negative X-factor. Many things contribute to this, namely the ugly, incongruous "chic" styling, the equally ugly interior (at least in LT form), the tiny engine, the 17 horsepower that went missing in the transition from Cobalt to Cruze, and the fact that no one seems bothered by that last one. It's just a ladies' car, plain and simple. It's a designer handbag on wheels, and I would no more drive one than carry a designer handbag.
I even read something once about a kid whose parents bought him a Fox-body Mustang... and he would've rather had a Civic! Anyway, he either pressured his parents to buy him one, or bought it himself, and then sold the Mustang so he could buy a wing for said Civic. What's wrong with people these days?
Anyway, as to my biases against the Cruze. You know how Top Gear talks a lot about "X-factor"? The Cruze has negative X-factor. Many things contribute to this, namely the ugly, incongruous "chic" styling, the equally ugly interior (at least in LT form), the tiny engine, the 17 horsepower that went missing in the transition from Cobalt to Cruze, and the fact that no one seems bothered by that last one. It's just a ladies' car, plain and simple. It's a designer handbag on wheels, and I would no more drive one than carry a designer handbag.
E28
Premium
- 5,019
- Bristol
- Sofa
So? Does it matter if people have a habit of ruining them? Being reliant on 'VEETAK' as you call it, isn't a bad thing, it's taking advantage of technology.
Ever heard of personal taste?
- 27,257
- United Kingdom
ryanb98
Haven't you heard? People aren't allowed to have personal taste. Anyone who doesn't think the whole world should drive V8s is just a big girl. So I hear, anyway.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
So, if I am to understand your argument correctly, you want the American automobile manufacturers to go back to making poorly assembled, cheaply made, low-quality econoboxes because it was better in some strange way?
I... I don't even know if I have words...
I honestly don't know if you have any understanding of what happened in the automotive industry in the past two decades, let alone the past three years. I really can't tell.
If people are willing to pay for it, why not offer it? You believe in free market economics, right? Or are you one of those Pinko-Commie, Borscht-eatin', fur-hat wearin' socialists?
What you're suggesting is similar to the way in which cars were manufactured in the Eastern Bloc. "You don't need leather in a car like this! That is for the bourgeois! A radio? Safety equipment? HA HA HA. This is a car for the working man! It will WORK for MAN. HA HA HA."
Hands-free use of your cell phone, initially. Now it can be used to stream music and other data from your cell phone into your car's stereo or navigation system. Ford has done the most with this with their Sync system, and now Kia, Toyota and Chevrolet are diving in with their own specially-designed systems based around similar technology.
Then I would suggest not stating things like this as if they were fact. I would also suggest going down to your local library and reading other automotive publications beyond Consumer Reports.
So, what exactly is your point, then?
It is fairly clear that we all generally agree that RWD gives you the greatest overall amount of performance, but it seems that you are in the severe minority when it comes to respecting what a FWD car can do.
Question is, have you driven a high enough performance front or rear drive vehicle to have any idea what you're talking about?
[/facepalm]
- 34,949
- Indian Falls, NY
- slashfan7964
When i read that thing about the Mustang, my jaw dropped. I would give the world to get my hands on a 'Stang. Almost there...
- 4,209
- Wasilla, AK
In the wrong way. Most VVT-reliant Hondas are absolutely gutless down low, especially with automatic transmission. Which I guess most people don't care about, unfortunately, because they've sold plenty of them. VVT technology can be used for good, but Honda didn't really do that.
That's not personal taste, that's personal stupidity. He wanted the Civic so he could be "in" like the rest of his "street racing crew", even though the Mustang would have made a better street racer (or any kind of racer, for that matter). He also apparently didn't have to get rid of the Mustang, but he would have rather had a wing for his Honduh than a second perfectly serviceable car (or at least, it was perfectly servicable until he installed Honda spark plug wires. That didn't really work.)
A compact car with luxury features is like... a fried egg covered in fine chocolate sauce. Alone, both of those things are quite alright, but they don't mix well.
Dodge actually seems to have gotten the "luxury compact" thing to work better than it ever should have, though the neon ring is ricey (I hope it'll be optional). By my count, then, Chrysler Corp, under Fiat ownership, is poised to do multiple impossible things at once... WITH THE SAME CAR!
Fine then, I admit I was wrong on this point. I still would not, however, want most of that stuff in an entry level car. Unless I have to buy it to get something like a sport suspension that I acutally care about.
Of course, given the choice between leather and the ugly fabric patterns used in the Ford Fiesta (fractal-piping? Shatter lines? Layered spiderwebs? Is there even a proper term for that pattern?) I'll gladly take the leather.
Music on cell phones... that's another thing I never would have predicted until it actually happens. It actually makes sense now, not having to fumble with cables and USB ports. The voice activated stuff is less attractive - I'd feel silly talking to one of those. What? You mean there are people who wouldn't?
If you're referring to Deepwater Horizons and what happened there, offshore drilling isn't the problem. The problem is that the people running the rig were cheating inspections to minimize unprofitable downtime, so when crunch time finally came, the saftey measures on the rig weren't up to it (according to a story in a local newspaper, Deepwater Horizons wasn't the first rig on which cheating occurred). Anyway, in addition to the Gulf of Mexico, we already have ANWR, plus who knows how much oil shale. And let's not forget all the other power-producing substances available to us, including hydrogen. And yet we're still dependent on foreign oil...
Joey D
Premium
- 47,741
- Lakes of the North, MI
- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
A Civic would be better then a Fox Body if you were doing autocross. Civics aren't gutless either, every one I've drive have been pretty peppy. They aren't a sports car by any means but they can be fun to drive. Sheer speed doesn't make a car better.
Luxury compacts make a ton of sense. A company can design a economy car and then slap a bunch of tech, a slightly on better suspension, fill the interior up with leather and give some fancy name and they'll sell it to people who want comfort, but also want to save gas. Pretty much the yuppies out there or the baby boomers who don't want to buy a giant Cadillac.
Luxury compacts make a ton of sense. A company can design a economy car and then slap a bunch of tech, a slightly on better suspension, fill the interior up with leather and give some fancy name and they'll sell it to people who want comfort, but also want to save gas. Pretty much the yuppies out there or the baby boomers who don't want to buy a giant Cadillac.
- 17,865
- 509
White & Nerdy, just stop. Just stop posting. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, with no real experience to work with.
All you are is a sea baseless bias, with a complete lack of knowledge.
How could you have not predicted music on phones? It has been the case for most of the last decade... Integration with what are normal devices makes sense - virtually everyone I know has a smartphone, music on it, and services they use with it like Pandora or Spotify.
Your continued arguing about compacts not needing features is pointless as well. Many people want a small car, but they also want comfort and features. There is no reason for those two to be mutually exclusive. My M3 qualifies as a compact. In fact, it is smaller than most compacts today. It has leather, and I like that. I don't see much reason for many young people to need a Lincoln Towncar or something of that scale if they want comfort.
And as for FWD drive, it can be quite fun in the smaller cars. Honestly, a V6 just puts too much weight in the front and interferes with the simple dynamics found, in say, a Civic or Integra. You've clearly never driven a properly setup FWD car or you'd be aware of this.
But honestly, it seems like you are just going around in circles now though.
All you are is a sea baseless bias, with a complete lack of knowledge.
How could you have not predicted music on phones? It has been the case for most of the last decade... Integration with what are normal devices makes sense - virtually everyone I know has a smartphone, music on it, and services they use with it like Pandora or Spotify.
Your continued arguing about compacts not needing features is pointless as well. Many people want a small car, but they also want comfort and features. There is no reason for those two to be mutually exclusive. My M3 qualifies as a compact. In fact, it is smaller than most compacts today. It has leather, and I like that. I don't see much reason for many young people to need a Lincoln Towncar or something of that scale if they want comfort.
And as for FWD drive, it can be quite fun in the smaller cars. Honestly, a V6 just puts too much weight in the front and interferes with the simple dynamics found, in say, a Civic or Integra. You've clearly never driven a properly setup FWD car or you'd be aware of this.
But honestly, it seems like you are just going around in circles now though.
- 41,071
Amazingly enough, some people no longer want to have to get a mid-size car to have it not be made of particle board and glue when all they need/want to have is a compact.
- 4,209
- Wasilla, AK
- 1,328
Why do we still bother? One day the kid will eventually grow up and you know.........start actually driving cars. Can't talk about cars with someone who just read about them on the internet.
Pretending to have a strong opinion is often a disguise of lack of actual insight.
Pretending to have a strong opinion is often a disguise of lack of actual insight.
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- 5,694
- Canada
- 5,694
- Canada
But, unfourtanately it doesn't have a 20.7l V8, so it'll be rubbish.
I'll reserve judgement on it until the first reviews come out...
I don't get why people say "OH! IT HAS TO HAVE THIS BIG FUEL-SUCKING ENGINE THAT GETS 4 MILES PER GALLON!!!".
Its a car, it's meant to get you from point A to point B.
What's the point of having such a powerful car when there are speed limits and the vehicle with the smaller engine goes the same speed (because of the speed limit)?
NCRthree
Premium
- 1,797
- Virginia
- ncrthree/GTP_ncrthree
Thanks for posting this up. Funny, when I think of Dodge Dart I think of the old slant sixes that folks had in the Sixties/Seventies. Basic reliable transportation with no pretensions. Hopefully this will be a well assembled reliable car. If it can compete with a Hyundai, Dodge will have a winner.
- 10,620
- gtp_jimprower
Thank you for stating this. I have no clue where people got the idea the Dart was a musclecar. Sure, there were a few variants with 318s and 340s, but the car's first and by far most common purpose was as an economy car. perhaps not one by today's standards, but an economy car nonetheless.
Just give us enthusiasts a hot version, 4-banger or not, and we'll be happy. Most of us.
- 758
- Bandhead4life
Yes.. and i Bet a Factory SRT4 would destroy a 340 Dart... hurts saying that for the fact my Dad has a Viper Red/Black GTS 340 Dart in the Garage... and its a Convertible
- 9,059
- Murica
- BasedAckbar
People in the car market luckily have short memories. This Dart should sell well, regardless of what it's predecessor accomplished.
It's nice to see Fiat actually care about Chrysler.
It's nice to see Fiat actually care about Chrysler.
