Dr is stupid and exploitable

[IAMDOODLEBUG]

I've been steadily climbing through the DR ranks since reaching SR S, currently at 40,000 which is mid DR A. Gut feel I will settle in a low S. I have had some major gripes recently which have been putting me off massively.

1) I had time for four C races yesterday - three of them were clean and resulted in finishing up by 2000 DR. The last ended up with an idiot intentionally and aggressively ramming me off the track two corners after I accidentally nudged him in the braking zone. All my DR gained in the evening was wiped out in one race caused by one plank and I was left wondering why I just wasted 2 hours of my life!
2) I jumped on this morning and only had time for 2 quali laps before the matchmaking started. It was enough to start in 18th but due to the DR rankings my door number expected me to finish in 4th! I drove a decent race and gained 7 positions but lost DR. In my view DR awarded should also factor in starting position. In any other race, gaining 7 places in 8 laps is a good achievement!

Obviously these gripes are only valid if you care about DR. I want to reach S, so these things drive me insane!!!

 

[Downhill Dino]

That makes it ok?

Yes?

90% of games are terrible, so we shouldn't expect any to be good?

Well that's subjective.

It's not hard to lock people into a DR tier for a while rather than having it constantly floating. Like, for instance, your average DR value for the week sets your ranking DR. Boom...simple.

What exactly do you mean by locking in? And what's a ranking DR? Where is it applied? If you're locked into a DR then where is this averaging coming from?

Apologies if I missed a post explaining this.

 

[Sean Renon]

I've been steadily climbing through the DR ranks since reaching SR S, currently at 40,000 which is mid DR A. Gut feel I will settle in a low S. I have had some major gripes recently which have been putting me off massively.

1) I had time for four C races yesterday - three of them were clean and resulted in finishing up by 2000 DR. The last ended up with an idiot intentionally and aggressively ramming me off the track two corners after I accidentally nudged him in the braking zone. All my DR gained in the evening was wiped out in one race caused by one plank and I was left wondering why I just wasted 2 hours of my life!
2) I jumped on this morning and only had time for 2 quali laps before the matchmaking started. It was enough to start in 18th but due to the DR rankings my door number expected me to finish in 4th! I drove a decent race and gained 7 positions but lost DR. In my view DR awarded should also factor in starting position. In any other race, gaining 7 places in 8 laps is a good achievement!

Obviously these gripes are only valid if you care about DR. I want to reach S, so these things drive me insane!!!

Not sure what you're complaining about - it sounds like you want the system catered around you.
If you get punted off course - guess what, that's still a poor finish, it's irrelevant how you got there. Driver rating doesn't care if somebody else wrecks you, SR does.
If you were truly an S ranked driver, then setting a good enough qualifying time to be top 10 in the grid among a field of DR A/B shouldn't be hard, especially in the GR.4 cars around a track like Maggiorre, it's not that difficult.

At the end of the day - the system has a rank for your driving that isn't designed to be artificially inflated, it's designed to represent you - if you want to artificially inflate it, then only race tracks you're good at that you've spent a good amount of time qualifying on.

I race with some guys who beat me easily on some tracks, and I beat them easily on other tracks - overall we're similarly ranked (high A), but if we both just stuck to our best tracks we'd probably be low S.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Qualifying time cannot be used for matching as half the people who race don’t put the proper effort in - they thInk 5 laps are plenty.

If qualifying times were used, I’d just sandbag - set a rubbish time then annihilate the slower drivers I got matched against.

Some changes to the qualifying format and then as it is applied throughout a days series of races could actually make Q times a much better indicator for driver matching than what it is currently.

For starters Q would be mandatory to race and require a minimum of three q laps to be run.
The entered Q time would be the average of the 3 fastest BACK TO BACK lap times ran during the Q session. The purpose of this is there are now many races where it is apparent that the racers are over their heads with the pace of a race in the lobby they were placed.

So much emphasis has been put on Q up front to avoid the carnage has many racers running countless Q laps to get that one magical lap they cannot within any consistency repeat or maintain the pace of and once within a race that requires that pace are driving over their heads and regularly going off of the track or blowing corners trying to run the required pace.

This in itself alone is the cause of much of the carnage and contact incidents within a lot of the online races. Those races that people rave about being great in most cases if you go back and watch the replays you were placed in a lobby that there were much fewer mistakes over the race distance.

A race where you gain 9 positions just racing a good constant pace and only pass 1 car in a legit pass and the rest of the places gained were by passing cars that has screwed up and run off track is not a good close race in my opinion.

Secondly to combat the "sandbagging problem" if any race lap is run at a faster time than your entered Q lap then such race lap will then become your Q lap time for future entries the rest of the day on that tracks daily race.

Maybe not perfect but I bet you would see much better matches and cleaner fewer incidents in the races being made if this were to be a major part of the matchmaking process.

Lot of difference in one hot lap time and times a driver can constantly maintain over a race distance for many drivers and that is showing in the sport races currently.

 

[Nando deBem]

Some changes to the qualifying format and then as it is applied throughout a days series of races could actually make Q times a much better indicator for driver matching than what it is currently.

For starters Q would be mandatory to race and require a minimum of three q laps to be run.
The entered Q time would be the average of the 3 fastest BACK TO BACK lap times ran during the Q session. The purpose of this is there are now many races where it is apparent that the racers are over their heads with the pace of a race in the lobby they were placed.

So much emphasis has been put on Q up front to avoid the carnage has many racers running countless Q laps to get that one magical lap they cannot within any consistency repeat or maintain the pace of and once within a race that requires that pace are driving over their heads and regularly going off of the track or blowing corners trying to run the required pace.

This in itself alone is the cause of much of the carnage and contact incidents within a lot of the online races. Those races that people rave about being great in most cases if you go back and watch the replays you were placed in a lobby that there were much fewer mistakes over the race distance.

A race where you gain 9 positions just racing a good constant pace and only pass 1 car in a legit pass and the rest of the places gained were by passing cars that has screwed up and run off track is not a good close race in my opinion.

Secondly to combat the "sandbagging problem" if any race lap is run at a faster time than your entered Q lap then such race lap will then become your Q lap time for future entries the rest of the day on that tracks daily race.

Maybe not perfect but I bet you would see much better matches and cleaner fewer incidents in the races being made if this were to be a major part of the matchmaking process.

Lot of difference in one hot lap time and times a driver can constantly maintain over a race distance for many drivers and that is showing in the sport races currently.

Feels like in your ideal world races would be parades, because everybody has the same pace they had in the qualy. It’s just natural not to be able to replicate qualy laps. Reality is like that too. There are people that are better at racing others... and those who are better at achieving the on “magical” lap.

Making rules extremely complicated is not a good way of popularizing a sport.

 

[Sean Renon]

Feels like in your ideal world races would be parades, because everybody has the same pace they had in the qualy. It’s just natural not to be able to replicate qualy laps. Reality is like that too. There are people that are better at racing others... and those who are better at achieving the on “magical” lap.

Making rules extremely complicated is not a good way of popularizing a sport.

Agreed.
Qualifying is a different style - you drive more on the limit, power down sooner - brake later.
Circuits like Brands Hatch GP are a good example - I take some pretty crazy risks on that circuit when qualifying, then I backoff in race and usually am a half second slower or more on average.

If a driver is capable of driving xx.xx time in qualifying, they're probably capable of driving within a second of that time in race - which is probably good enough.

 

[Stotty]

The forum is full of pointless threads like this, with people trying to redesign the game in some way with ludicrously overcomplicated ideas, because it does work the way they want it to.

Suggesting matching using qualifying times is daft - the amount of effort people put in to qualifying varies enormously, and will in no way help match skill levels.

If you’re pissed you can’t win, do something about it... make a concerted effort to get faster. Stop racing. Invest the time in running the WRS every week for 6 months. Improve your skills.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Feels like in your ideal world races would be parades, because everybody has the same pace they had in the qualy.

That would be better more intense racing than many current Sport races. Prime example in 3 different GR3 daily races yesterday I gained 8,9 and 10 positions with only a few legit passes in those races but more as the drivers were trying to run doing consistent faster laps than their skills allowed and took the scenic route rather than stay on the track.

My q time was within a 1/2 of a second of the time I can repeatedly do on that track with that car. It placed me between 12th and 14th starting position in each race.

As a racer I would much rather be racing to gain two or possibly three positions in a race or even just having to race hard to maintain starting position than just drive by the cars to gain 8-10 positions that apparently the drivers skill sets are not able to run multiple laps at that pace and maintain their car on circuit.

This was in DR B/ SR S races also not perhaps the fastest of the racers in the game but not the slowest or most inexperienced by a longshot.

Being a parade would be inclined to saying that you could not pass another car if that cars driver and lap times was of a similar skill set to your own. Some of the best races I have ever had in Sport was when the rankings were the same top to bottom and the q times were within 2 seconds from from first to last place.

Happens rarely but I have seen a few races this way since the games launch.

 

[TenderLoins]

The forum is full of pointless threads like this, with people trying to redesign the game in some way with ludicrously overcomplicated ideas, because it does work the way they want it to.

Suggesting matching using qualifying times is daft - the amount of effort people put in to qualifying varies enormously, and will in no way help match skill levels.

If you’re pissed you can’t win, do something about it... make a concerted effort to get faster. Stop racing. Invest the time in running the WRS every week for 6 months. Improve your skills.

Wouldn’t it have been easier to just say “get good”?

 

[CAB77]

I wish all those without Qual times would be put together. This way those that exploit the pit glitch like llllllHlllll would be less likely to start at the rear.

Other then that I'm happy to race who ever.

 

[cleanLX]

Yay GT Sport will be an online game against real people for me to showcase my talent to the world.
Wait, I'm not all the talented after all.
Hey, I can't seem to win.
This game sucks!
Quit complaining that the game is broke... the games not broke you're just not "fast"... and neither am I, see you the middle somewhere.

 

[IAMDOODLEBUG]

Not sure what you're complaining about - it sounds like you want the system catered around you.
If you get punted off course - guess what, that's still a poor finish, it's irrelevant how you got there. Driver rating doesn't care if somebody else wrecks you, SR does.
If you were truly an S ranked driver, then setting a good enough qualifying time to be top 10 in the grid among a field of DR A/B shouldn't be hard, especially in the GR.4 cars around a track like Maggiorre, it's not that difficult.

At the end of the day - the system has a rank for your driving that isn't designed to be artificially inflated, it's designed to represent you - if you want to artificially inflate it, then only race tracks you're good at that you've spent a good amount of time qualifying on.

I race with some guys who beat me easily on some tracks, and I beat them easily on other tracks - overall we're similarly ranked (high A), but if we both just stuck to our best tracks we'd probably be low S.

Im not expecting the system to be designed around me! I merely think there could be other elements taken into account when calculating the swing of DR points ie number of clean passes, perhaps even average laptimes. As said, I had two laps to set a time which is the reason for the low quali position. I was fast enough in theory to be on the podium but it was a difficult task starting in 18th. I think what surprises me more than anything is that even at A, there are a plethora of fools, albeit less than B, C and so on. The pace in the bracket between A-S is pretty quick for most casual folk, so I find it hard to comprehend that the idiots can manage to retain SR S and DR A, while driving like carmageddon. I know there will always be anomalies, but it still points to something which could be improved.

 

[Stotty]

Wouldn’t it have been easier to just say “get good”?

Isn’t that what I said?

On line works really well if you’re decently fast. For me, GTS is brilliant just the way it is... I don’t need some mega complicated qualify/matching system.

The only thing I’d change is to add some more tracks.

But being fast isn’t something that just happens. You need to put the effort in, and just running Sport races will not make you fast.

Spend a few months running the WRS time trials - measuring your hot lapping skills against a constant peer group week after week. If you can’t lap fast on your own, you’ll never lap fast in a race.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

^ Ever considered that a lot of people just want to race for fun instead to 'get good'. Fun includes the occasional chance of a win. Not like today on Tokyo with all DR.B close qualifying times of 2:00 to 2:02, and one DR.S up front with 1:56 qualifying time. and lap times, while the rest runs at 2:01, 2nd place 18 seconds behind at the finish, half the pack not even getting to finish in a 4 lap race...

I see 2nd place as winning now, don't care what the game says. That rabbit half a lap ahead doesn't count.

 

[Sean Renon]

^ Ever considered that a lot of people just want to race for fun instead to 'get good'. Fun includes the occasional chance of a win. Not like today on Tokyo with all DR.B close qualifying times of 2:00 to 2:02, and one DR.S up front with 1:56 qualifying time. and lap times, while the rest runs at 2:01, 2nd place 18 seconds behind at the finish, half the pack not even getting to finish in a 4 lap race...

I see 2nd place as winning now, don't care what the game says. That rabbit half a lap ahead doesn't count.

See, personally this is one of my qualms with the game.
I sometimes get matched up with a full field of drivers who are much slower than me and it becomes no fun for anyone.

If anything could be improved, maybe the game gives me a warning as matchmaking is being done, or when I'm entering that there are very few drivers my speed currently waiting for a race and to allow me to back-out without penalty. Once that race matches me in that lobby, I have no choice but to race - else I lose a bunch of DR/SR, and I basically ruin the chance of a lower ranked driver getting a win.

 

[Nando deBem]

^ Ever considered that a lot of people just want to race for fun instead to 'get good'. Fun includes the occasional chance of a win. Not like today on Tokyo with all DR.B close qualifying times of 2:00 to 2:02, and one DR.S up front with 1:56 qualifying time. and lap times, while the rest runs at 2:01, 2nd place 18 seconds behind at the finish, half the pack not even getting to finish in a 4 lap race...

I see 2nd place as winning now, don't care what the game says. That rabbit half a lap ahead doesn't count.

I get what you’re saying, but fun and competing are different things. Sometimes they come together, but not usually.
Sport Mode is competing. Sometimes is gonna be fun, but most times it’s gonna be anxiety, frustration, thrill... I mean, if your idea of fun is “fun = win”.

 

[TenderLoins]

Isn’t that what I said?

In a long winded condescending way. I forgot sarcasm is lost on some without /s.

On line works really well if you’re decently fast. For me, GTS is brilliant just the way it is... I don’t need some mega complicated qualify/matching system.

The only thing I’d change is to add some more tracks.

Of course the matchmaking is brilliant for you. You’re one of the fastest 500 racers in the game. You’re either matched with guys just as fast or considerably slower. Not with people 1-4 levels higher running times 2-5 seconds faster per lap.

But being fast isn’t something that just happens. You need to put the effort in, and just running Sport races will not make you fast.

Spend a few months running the WRS time trials - measuring your hot lapping skills against a constant peer group week after week. If you can’t lap fast on your own, you’ll never lap fast in a race.

I think your idea of decently fast is somewhat distorted being an S/S driver. I consider myself decently fast. I rarely lose positions in a race. I’ve been close to DR A for a while and I have no delusions of grandeur. Even with more practice than I have time for I will never be an S/S driver. Most people won’t be even with tons of practice. My problem is simply the matchmaking.

When I enter FIA races the matchmaking is much better because there are plenty of players at a similar level of DR. In those races I usually have a good shot at podium or even a win. But daily races, because of the smaller pool of players, put way too much emphasis on having a full grid rather than an evenly matched smaller grid.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

On line works really well if you’re decently fast. For me, GTS is brilliant just the way it is... I don’t need some mega complicated qualify/matching system.

I'm DRS/SRS, usually inside a second off the top qualifying time,

It is great that you are decently fast as you put it and start up front most of the time.
As probably many of the DR ranked lower A and DR B ranked drivers that fill the ranks in the races in which you run and as you probably check out from those level racers those racers would be much more appreciative of a system of some sort that would closely match the other 90% of the starting field.

It is normal that only 1 or 2 S ranked drivers that appear in the sport races against by the attitude you express in this thread against lower level opponents that apparently only exist to be grid fillers for your upper echelon class of racers as this is how you through your post project yourself.

If you look at the numbers bud the upper class racers are the minority in this game and for the game to continue it needs the majority players which happen to be the lower ranks to remain interested and playing the game.

The matching system does not currently work well for the lower ranked players and need to be fixed somehow. Running a Sport race turning time trial laps while passing cars off track will not keep the interest very long as well as just the opposite of being hit and punted on many slower corners will not work for long either.

The game needs to match players closer by skills than is currently being done. Your attitude it is fine as it does not match the majority of racers doing sport mode races.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Yes?



Well that's subjective.



What exactly do you mean by locking in? And what's a ranking DR? Where is it applied? If you're locked into a DR then where is this averaging coming from?

Apologies if I missed a post explaining this.

All I am saying is that if you have demonstrated the skill for a DR tier, that should endure.

So, you get to A or S, you don't drop a full tier in the same day, especially from non driving related events (like quitting).

If you quit, you should drop SR, not DR.

 

[Nando deBem]

All I am saying is that if you have demonstrated the skill for a DR tier, that should endure.

So, you get to A or S, you don't drop a full tier in the same day, especially from non driving related events (like quitting).

If you quit, you should drop SR, not DR.

I like the idea of dropping SR, but the problem is... the "prize pool" is calculated when people join... and the points are going to be redistributed at the end. It's unfair to remove the quitter's DR point from the pool. Someone would get less point for his good result.

 

[John Crellin]

I am a B/S racer

According to http://www.jasonguernsey.net/gts/Driver-Rating there are 15783 players with a B/S ranking

honestly, that should be enough to give me a full grid or a mostly filled grid of B/S players at any given time. yet every race there is 1-4 A/S or S/S. Why is that? I wonder why they want this kind of matching.... maybe to help disperse the racers over the track and let little groups form? idk it weird

 

[Nando deBem]

I am a B/S racer

According to http://www.jasonguernsey.net/gts/Driver-Rating there are 15783 players with a B/S ranking

honestly, that should be enough to give me a full grid or a mostly filled grid of B/S players at any given time. yet every race there is 1-4 A/S or S/S. Why is that? I wonder why they want this kind of matching.... maybe to help disperse the racers over the track and let little groups form? idk it weird

15 k around the world. 3 daily races, 2 FIA races, different time zones.
Add to that... multiple lobbies for every thing I said before.

This distribution tells us a lot!

 

[Voodoovaj]

I like the idea of dropping SR, but the problem is... the "prize pool" is calculated when people join... and the points are going to be redistributed at the end. It's unfair to remove the quitter's DR point from the pool. Someone would get less point for his good result.

It doesn't need to be. The quitter is a DNF. The prize pool remains unchanged.

I am merely opposed to quitting (or any other undesired behaviour) being, essentially, rewarded because of the immediate change in driver rating to a quitter.

It's the same with dirty driving. I retaliate when the time calls for it. Why not? A dirty driver gets taken out and I lose SR. For that crime, I am presented with potentially easier races and more rapid progress toward trophies and achievements.

Sure, I score less in FIA races, but since my score will never really mean anything, what's the difference?

Maybe there should be a "top 24" for different tiers or some other subset so it can matter nore to more people. Or, maybe, we can win limited edition cars or something... Like we used to be able to 20 years ago.

 

[Nando deBem]

It doesn't need to be. The quitter is a DNF. The prize pool remains unchanged.

I am merely opposed to quitting (or any other undesired behaviour) being, essentially, rewarded because of the immediate change in driver rating to a quitter.

It's the same with dirty driving. I retaliate when the time calls for it. Why not? A dirty driver gets taken out and I lose SR. For that crime, I am presented with potentially easier races and more rapid progress toward trophies and achievements.

Sure, I score less in FIA races, but since my score will never really mean anything, what's the difference?

Maybe there should be a "top 24" for different tiers or some other subset so it can matter nore to more people. Or, maybe, we can win limited edition cars or something... Like we used to be able to 20 years ago.

For the prize pool to remain unchanged, quitters and disconnects are gonna suffer, because the others won’t.

 

[John Crellin]

15 k around the world. 3 daily races, 2 FIA races, different time zones.
Add to that... multiple lobbies for every thing I said before.

Yeah i see your point, but humor me for one second.
Im on the east coast and on the north american servers. So lets say im playing at primetime around midnight so the west coasters will be at 8pm. Hot time on the servers.

Lets divide the players equally amongst the sport mode options and the lobbies for simplicity (1/6th of the population in each) so 2500 in each pool
and then lets further say that only 5% of the available pool are actually entered to race the same time as me. That leaves 125 players to get matched against. That should be enough technically.

Edit: Btw that math only leave 4 of the 500 DR S drivers which doesnt seem unreasonable

 

[Voodoovaj]

For the prize pool to remain unchanged, quitters and disconnects are gonna suffer, because the others won’t.

Why? It's not like it cash or something.

If you enter a real race and people crash, no one reduces your prize money because there were fewer cars on the track at the end.

 

[Nando deBem]

Why? It's not like it cash or something.

If you enter a real race and people crash, no one reduces your prize money because there were fewer cars on the track at the end.

It is like cash. DR is a currency system. It has to be balanced. Not every one can up their DR at the same time. That would be easy to game, and everyone could be SS at the same time. That would be game breaking.

Yeah i see your point, but humor me for one second.
Im on the east coast and on the north american servers. So lets say im playing at primetime around midnight so the west coasters will be at 8pm. Hot time on the servers.

Lets divide the players equally amongst the sport mode options and the lobbies for simplicity (1/6th of the population in each) so 2500 in each pool
and then lets further say that only 5% of the available pool are actually entered to race the same time as me. That leaves 125 players to get matched against. That should be enough technically.

I don’t know... maybe having 1 race every 30 minutes make those 125 not to race at the same time? There’s even the possibility they think lower DR being tightly match is not a good idea. Not that much skill, and too much attacking and defending. I really don’t know. But I appreciate the complexity of managing a 400k people ranking system. I think they’re on the right track.

 

[coltsjugg]

I feel like everything wrong with GT Sport has been covered by now.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Yeah i see your point, but humor me for one second.
Im on the east coast and on the north american servers. So lets say im playing at primetime around midnight so the west coasters will be at 8pm. Hot time on the servers.

Lets divide the players equally amongst the sport mode options and the lobbies for simplicity (1/6th of the population in each) so 2500 in each pool
and then lets further say that only 5% of the available pool are actually entered to race the same time as me. That leaves 125 players to get matched against. That should be enough technically.

Or, here's an idea, don't segregate the servers.

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to play against the Europeans. England is closer to me than than Brazil, so I don't buy distance being the problem.

It is like cash. DR is a currency system. It has to be balanced. Not every one can up their DR at the same time. That would be easy to game, and everyone could be SS at the same time. That would be game breaking.

This would only be true if there were a time component to DR as well. If the few hundred DR-S players stopped playing, DR-A's would succeed more and become S. Also, since you can't gather your friends o join a server and then quit to boost your DR artificially, it's not really possible to "game" the system into giving you a boat load of DR.

 

[Voodoovaj]

delete