Draft of Proposed BC5 rules - please read and comment

  • Thread starter Thread starter Duke
  • 283 comments
  • 16,411 views
Status
Not open for further replies.
I can't imagine that a one shot race is ever going to be viable when offline racing is involved. A fine concept, but impossible to police for those tempted to go for another run .... then another .... then another ....... I guess thats why people opt for online racing with thier PC eh Wity.
 
Rypien
I can't imagine that a one shot race is ever going to be viable when offline racing is involved. A fine concept, but impossible to police for those tempted to go for another run .... then another .... then another ....... I guess thats why people opt for online racing with thier PC eh Wity.

Your wrong Rypien mate, enforcing one shot at a race is attempted is easy. I held one at the Numbers years ago and before that there was a site doing nothing but oneshots. Now it's even easier though and can be set up and policed by anyone with no pc skills involved .
 
Duke
5.2: Preliminary Schedule:
  • Rules/Category Finalization - now through 1 July 2005
Has this been extended? If so, to when?
 
eggmann
Has this been extended? If so, to when?
Well, I opened discussion of the subject about 10 days ago, and there was some minor feedback, but no major reorganization. The Category rules in the first post have been updated somewhat; it may be worth rereading that section. Between the proposed Categories and the Wild Cards, the bases seem pretty well covered, but if you have any major comments, feel free to add them here.

Other than that I would say that this milestone has not been extended. I'm hoping teams are working on their proposals as we speak. I guess I'll make the rounds and remind everybody.
 
Team Numbers is all set to go with our race proposals, that's the only reason I wondered. I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to know if we might need to change anything we've already come up with based on the current rules. Thanks, Duke.
 
Yep I was wondering when rules draft was going official too. Been keeping an eye and seen lots of good suggestions, but no real major objections to what's there already.
We've also got our race submissions ready for shipping.
 
I am well aware of your past one shot deal race wity . Great stuff. But to put something like that into a board challenge where you need a small time frame to properly run a oneshot it would be too hard to police when there is already enough pressure in a board challenge environment. Just my opinion anyways 👍
 
Just to make 100% sure for me.


1.4.11: Race Length: All Scenarios above will be run in either Short Race (2-5 laps) or Hot Lap (single fast lap on open track; no AI) format except the Long Race. Proposals shall indicate the format for each Scenario. It is the intent of these rules that races shall be 5 laps or less, except Long Races, which are 10 or more laps. Sprints and enduros require different strategies and this rule is intended to reflect that. However, Proposals for races 6-9 laps in length will be accepted.


Will a race with 6 - 9 laps be accepted for a long race, for a short race, or for both of them?
 
That would be considered for either. I'd say anything with under a 1':30" lap would be a 'short race' and anything with a longer lap would be a 'long race'.

Or we could do it as "7 laps or less" and "8 laps or more".

... and hence my initial division of races as "5 or less" and "10 or over".
 
There might be a issue with replays that needs looking into.A member of GTN has found that arcade races and GT mode races look identical and that could cause a big problem.A posted arcade race in theory could be run in GT mode and a car could be out of spec with no way to tell if it was.
 
IforceV8
There might be a issue with replays that needs looking into.A member of GTN has found that arcade races and GT mode races look identical and that could cause a big problem.A posted arcade race in theory could be run in GT mode and a car could be out of spec with no way to tell if it was.

the issue is on the reverse imo...a GT mode race may be ran in arcade (wich is faster)...or we could do another way:

GT mode cars have to activate the NOS...(I don't mean using it), so in the replay that bar will be shown for GT mode cars...while it can't be there for arcade cars
just my idea
 
Excellent idea Rico 👍
 
So what's up next, is this the final version of the rules ???

You've done a nice job Duke, keep going...
 
Thanks, beru!

There have not been any major changes to the rules lately; it seems they are pretty acceptable to everybody. Right now there is public down time while teams are putting together their proposals, but I assume each team is having a lot of internal discussion.

I do like Rico's idea of installing nitrous in all GT mode cars to prevent any Arcade running.

With the proposals coming in at the end of this month and the the voting process going throughout August, I expect we'll start see more discussion here.
 
So can we take down the 'Draft' sign and set things in stone?

Will Rico's idea about including the NOS gauge make it into the 'Final' rules?

Would be good to have the rules locked in so there can be no misunderstandings 👍 .
 
Well, I figured I'd leave things open until the Round Proposals are submitted, anyway.

And yes, I thought that I would include the NOS item just because it's a small layer of protection against fraud.
 
Should we plan on competing in the two rally races, or are one or both of those subject to being replaced by 'wildcard' races?

Forgive me if this is all spelled out in the rules somewhere... As I understand it the 10 primary race scenarios will be voted on individually, and then if any wildcard race gets more votes it will replace a primary race. Is there a chance that more than one wildcard race would make it into the final racing schedule?
 
Is July 30th still the final date for race submissions?
 
eggmann
Should we plan on competing in the two rally races, or are one or both of those subject to being replaced by 'wildcard' races?
All Rounds are subject to being replaced by a Wildcard; however, since that is determined strictly by vote count I can't predict which Round might get replaced - if any get replaced at all. So I would expect there will be both an Arcade rally and GT mode rally.
As I understand it the 10 primary race scenarios will be voted on individually, and then if any wildcard race gets more votes it will replace a primary race. Is there a chance that more than one wildcard race would make it into the final racing schedule?
You understand correctly. Each team will place 11 votes - 1 for each round and 1 for the Wildcard - and if the highest-scoring Wildcard is higher than the lowest-scoring regular round, it will replace that round. However, since we only have 10 or 11 teams voting, I seriously doubt that more than one Round will get replaced, and in fact I think it's probably only a 50/50 chance that it happens at all.
 
IforceV8
There might be a issue with replays that needs looking into.A member of GTN has found that arcade races and GT mode races look identical and that could cause a big problem.A posted arcade race in theory could be run in GT mode and a car could be out of spec with no way to tell if it was.

I cant check just now but a replay of a hotlap run in arcade mode if saved as a ghost replay can only be viewed in arcade mode. Is not the same true when it comes to race replays?

There's going to be people running against different AI anyways, the field generated by an arcade race is always the same field if you go to it from a switch on ps2 start but it's a different field depending on wether your pal or ntsc
 
Rypien
I am well aware of your past one shot deal race wity . Great stuff. But to put something like that into a board challenge where you need a small time frame to properly run a oneshot it would be too hard to police when there is already enough pressure in a board challenge environment. Just my opinion anyways 👍

Dont dismiss an extremely easy to set up, verifyable, and 100% enforcable one shot race for the BC guys despite what my old mucka Rypien says. There's no time frame different to the time frame of submitting any other kind of run.

The enforcable one shot we ran at the Numbers a couple of years back was flawed there was a way to cheat but looking into the possability of running some one shots recently I've sussed how to plug that hole.

Tell you what. I'll set one up at Tosks tommorrow so you can see how easily it is nowadays.
 
Wity
the field generated by an arcade race is always the same field if you go to it from a switch on ps2 start but it's a different field depending on wether your pal or ntsc

no Wity, u're wrong there...the field generated by an arcade car is not costant..there are always some different sets of fields, sometimes 4-5 also
 
Had another look and your right sorry. It is a random field of AI thats generated, but perhaps not with every race as I swear I tried it quite a few times before and I got the same line up every time as long as I started from a switch on.
 
One item I'd like still to discuss before we put a lock on the rules is replay varification. I've got an idea on how the process can work, but I'm looking for suggestions as well.
 
Firstly. Just to let you know. We've changed all our GT mode race selection to "NOS installed but not be used during the races": in-line with Rico's suggestion.

As far as replay variation suggestions goes. I think if I had a job on the Replay committe.

1. I'd make a little list of the final 10 race details (the ones we can varify).. Car, model, correct year, what the specified power should read in the fade-up replay screen. Tyres front and rear. event etc.

2. I'd have a quick check over the replay icon in the replay theatre before launching to see if there wasn't any imdieate mistakes of car model, track etc.

3. Then when the replay is launched I'd check off the details on the list with the info that the black fade up screen gives for a few fleeting seconds.
Car make/ model / year / Tyres Front & rear / and What the event reads.. this usualy shows something like..
Single race = Arcade race
Event Race = GT Mode race
Free run = Free run, either GT mode or Arcade (you can't tell)

4. If they all checked out, I'd look for any other obvious mistakes.. Right track.. wrong direction etc.

.5 I'd make a note of any AI line up present, just to check with other runs in case something was amiss. One issue I pointed out weeks ago concerned Arcade and family cup races. It's possible to select a lower difficulty level i.e 9 instead of 10 and get the same (or very close) AI line up.

6 I'd view the run the first time not looking for infringments but at top speeds (Especially where Nos was involved) Because imho it's possible to sneek a few squirts without it registering as one notch on the gague (especially if players have adjusted the balance of it). not too important on longer races but on a 2 lapper makes a difference.

7. Then it's down to looking for infringments.. Offs / wall touches / AI contact for any penalties ( the hard part)

I've found that using the select button alone to pause and restart can be a little slow. I'd use the select button to pause and the Triangle button to restart.. it might just be me but it seems to jog forwad more precisely that way. Also use the many camera angles to shed light on any close calls. I personally wouldn't dismiss the use of slow-mo video on really tough calls beacause although they don't reveal any further contact details, they do show any speed drops more acurately, especially where invisible walls are concerned.

Without an edit programe, anything further I reckon we'll all have to put down to honour and trust. We're all grown ups here, and I really can't see anyone risking the public lynching and humiliation that follows when a confirmed cheat is caught.
So lets just cross our fingers and enjoy the First BC on GT4.

Prolly no help but just feedback as requested :)
 
No, it's a big help. Thanks for putting all that in.

I'm also wondering about a verification committee. Do we need multiple reviews of every submittal, or just those in question? Here's what I was thinking:
  • Put all teams in alphabetical order by name.
  • For Round One, each team's submittal is reviewed by the manager(s) of next team in line, wrapping around to the first team.
  • For Round Two, each team's submittal is reviewed by the team 2 spaces down on the list. For Round Three, 3 spaces down the list, etc.
  • If there are any questionable runs identified, all other teams may (at their option) review the replay for consensus.
This way each manager only has to review one run per round, and no team is being reviewed by any other team more than once. Plus, any differences in how a given reviewer interperets things will be averaged out over all the rounds and all the other teams.
 
For my money. I'd say only questionalbe runs need to be passed on for 2nd /3rd oppinions.

As for your proposed idea Duke, I think it sounds good, the workload is evened out all over. The only problem is.. that it's possible that a teams managers could get handed a Pal replay to review when they are only NTSC capable and vica verca.. I know on our team we only have one NTSC member and he's a driver not a manager. not explained very well but hopefully you get the drift.
 
Duke, I was wondering instead of the second rally, maybe we could have a open race, like the wildcard. I don't know if there really is an interest in rally for 2 races, but maybe I'm wrong.
 
I'd like to keep it the way it is for now. There are plenty of races from which to choose; with 10 rounds I don't see 2 as a problem. Besides, if one is really unpopular, the Wild Card will replace it anyway.

They don't have to both be dirt rallies; one could be a Special Conditions race.
 
Duke
I'm also wondering about a verification committee. Do we need multiple reviews of every submittal, or just those in question? Here's what I was thinking:
  • Put all teams in alphabetical order by name.
  • For Round One, each team's submittal is reviewed by the manager(s) of next team in line, wrapping around to the first team.
  • For Round Two, each team's submittal is reviewed by the team 2 spaces down on the list. For Round Three, 3 spaces down the list, etc.
  • If there are any questionable runs identified, all other teams may (at their option) review the replay for consensus.
This way each manager only has to review one run per round, and no team is being reviewed by any other team more than once. Plus, any differences in how a given reviewer interperets things will be averaged out over all the rounds and all the other teams.

A good idea. 👍

See just one problem. In SoGT for example nobody is able to view a NTSC Replay. We are all PAL Drivers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back