Driving etiquette: "dive bombing" corners.

I divebomb absolutely every corner online and I win every single race.

You charge into a corner at full speed, then brake once you start turning and sort of drag yourself around it. Engaging oversteer helps this method of cornering in regards to getting your car facing the right way.

Or maybe I'm just a cheating scrub who knows.
 
I consider it dive bombing if the car making the move wouldn't make the corner without coming into contact with the driver being passed. No contact = not a dive bomb. See Nico Rosberg's moves on Seb Vettel at Bahrain last weekend. Very agressive down the inside at the last moment, Nico even ran wide on the exit and compromised his run out of the corner, and forced Seb to go really wide and back right off to avoid contact. Not a dive bomb because he still made the corner (just), just hard racing.

As a Ferrari fan I wasn't happy about it, but it was fair.

It's not fair at all, a late lunge from quite far back where you can't make the corner without running wide onto the other drivers line is a dirty move. The only reason why it doesn't result in a crash is because the driver being overtaken takes evasive action at the last minute and turns out of the corner.
 
I consider dive bombing a corner one of two things.

A) Essentially playing chicken with another racer seeing who will brake first knowing that you probably won't be slowing down enough to negotiate the turn.

B) Barreling into a corner braking very little knowing that you will be using other cars to slow you down.
 
Looking at @Ameer67's diagram, I see a valid gap to go for as the front runner isn't defending strongly enough.

That's assuming the cars are driven equally and the setups are similar though. It's perfect for a block pass but I'd need to trust the lead car to not close the door mid corner with me on the inside. ie, never in a quick match...

No overlap, I'd never attempt it. The speed difference will be too great and unfair to the lead car to have to avoid a collision while they compromise their allowed line.
 
I see diveboming as a last ditch effort where you make no effort to make the corner and either use a car or the wall to make it (see Ryan Newman's last lap pass at Phoenix in 2014)
 
Who invented the term dive bombing ? Sounds more like aviation term for low altitude bombing run :D

Sometimes even good intention driver could make judgment error and brake too late or have brake issues, then he/she dive bombed :lol: or the driver in front intentionally brake very late then turn in aggressively blocking the inner line even when the supposedly dive bomber already in the end of braking phase with nowhere to go.
 
Who invented the term dive bombing ? Sounds more like aviation term for low altitude bombing run :D

Sometimes even good intention driver could make judgment error and brake too late or have brake issues, then he/she dive bombed :lol: or the driver in front intentionally brake very late then turn in aggressively blocking the inner line even when the supposedly dive bomber already in the end of braking phase with nowhere to go.
The GTP OLR covers when a pass attempt is legal, when to make room for other drivers when you're the lead car, and when to back off and give way to the apex if you are the following car.
 
Who invented the term dive bombing ? Sounds more like aviation term for low altitude bombing run :D

See: Stukka's and WWII

Ju87V2.jpg
 
It's not fair at all, a late lunge from quite far back where you can't make the corner without running wide onto the other drivers line is a dirty move. The only reason why it doesn't result in a crash is because the driver being overtaken takes evasive action at the last minute and turns out of the corner.

It isn't dirty driving it's called racing, which is why it's allowed in ALL forms of real motorsport. If you get into the turn in point on the inside of the other driver it's up to them to alter their line to avoid contact. This is common in all forms of motorsport, and leaving the inside line open for it is the fault of the defending driver. If there is a driver close behind you, you should alter your line to cover the inside. You don't just stay on the racing line out wide and cut in towards the apex when a car is attempting an overtake - THAT is dirty driving. If you leave the door open, don't cry when someone takes up the invitation.

If the attacking driver can't make the corner because of how big a dive they've made, and it results in either contact with the other car, or if the other car isn't there they can't stop their car before the track limits and run off track or into the barrier, then it's diveboming, not if they simply put their car up the inside in the braking zone. Some people try to claim that any late move up the inside is dive bombing, and that is plain wrong.

The only way a divebomb works is when the defending car is used as a barrier to help slow the dive bomber down so he/she can make the corner.
 
It isn't dirty driving it's called racing, which is why it's allowed in ALL forms of real motorsport. If you get into the turn in point on the inside of the other driver it's up to them to alter their line to avoid contact. This is common in all forms of motorsport, and leaving the inside line open for it is the fault of the defending driver. If there is a driver close behind you, you should alter your line to cover the inside. You don't just stay on the racing line out wide and cut in towards the apex when a car is attempting an overtake - THAT is dirty driving. If you leave the door open, don't cry when someone takes up the invitation.

First off, just because it's allowed in real life, doesn't mean it's not dirty.

Secondly, if you're up the inside of another driver, it is not the sole responsibility of the driver on the outside to avoid contact, that is complete nonsense, if that were true you could just swerve into them and hit them off the track and say "they should of altered their line", the driver on the inside doing the overtake has to allow the other driver racing room so long as their reasonably far alongside. That is why block passing is unfair because it forces the driver being overtaken completely out of room, making them back out.

Finally, what you're describing seems to be where the overtaking driver gets alongside in the braking zone, which wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about when people start braking a good distance behind and then sail up the inside just as the driver infront starts to turn in, forcing them to immediately turn out of the corner or have a crash, driving like that is clumsy and dangerous. Also, the divebomb I'm talking about is virtually impossible to defend against without driving a defensive line into every corner every time someone is within 3-4 car lengths of you.
 
First off, just because it's allowed in real life, doesn't mean it's not dirty.

Secondly, if you're up the inside of another driver, it is not the sole responsibility of the driver on the outside to avoid contact, that is complete nonsense, if that were true you could just swerve into them and hit them off the track and say "they should of altered their line", the driver on the inside doing the overtake has to allow the other driver racing room so long as their reasonably far alongside. That is why block passing is unfair because it forces the driver being overtaken completely out of room, making them back out.

Finally, what you're describing seems to be where the overtaking driver gets alongside in the braking zone, which wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about when people start braking a good distance behind and then sail up the inside just as the driver infront starts to turn in, forcing them to immediately turn out of the corner or have a crash, driving like that is clumsy and dangerous. Also, the divebomb I'm talking about is virtually impossible to defend against without driving a defensive line into every corner every time someone is within 3-4 car lengths of you.

Racing rules in real racing exist to penalise unfair driving, but not discourage hard racing. You may want to read some FIA regulations if you don't believe me on who's responsibility it is to avoid contact. I never said the inside driver could swerve into the outside driver, that's complete rubbish. If a driver is up the inside under brakes, the driver on the outside is responsible for avoiding contact, they can't just take a normal racing line and ignore the driver on the inside. The inside driver only has to make sure to leave one car's width room on the outside of the corner, no more.

According to the FIA sporting regulations, if the outside driver has half a car length lead when turning in, they have a right to stay alongside the inside car. If they are side by side, and the outside car is not leading, then the inside car does NOT have to provide racing room and is allowed to use the entire track width on exit. It is up to the outside car to ensure contact is not made, which is why you'll see real racers yield in these circumstances, because they'd get a penalty if there was contact.

The car making a move on the inside has to have the front of their car at least half way alongside the car on the outside to be allowed racing room. If they are only front wheel to rear wheel it is up to them to avoid contact, and they have no claim to the racing line, so they have to yield if the outside driver chooses to cut in to the apex. A good example would be Rosberg v Hamilton at Spa last year, Rosberg didn't yield in time before hamilton's rear tyre went over his FWEP, so that was Rosberg's fault.

I was describing exactly what I cited as an example: Rosberg v Vettel in Bahrain. Rosberg's moves were on the limit of what would be acceptable because he put his car where it needed to be LEGALLY. Therefore, if Vettel hadn't yielded, it would've been his fault. Too many people get too picky with their own interpretations of what is and isn't fair, simply because they expect to be given enough room everywhere in every situation. Real racing isn't like that, there are very clearly defined rules that have to be adhered to, and if you are following the letter of the law, the other driver can cry on his radio about it all day and it won't make any difference.

I agree with you on the definition of a divebomb, as you described the same thing I did when I said what I considered to be a divebomb. I was explaining that what some people have described as a divebomb is simply a late dive down the inside of an unsuspecting (sleeping and not defending as they should be) driver. One is a ridiculous dive from way back that would never work without hitting the other driver (the divebomb) and the other is a perfectly valid way of overtaking and is recognised as fair in the eyes of the world's governing body of motorsport.
 
IMO dive-bombing results in contact; using the car in front of you as brakes when you couldn't make the corner is completely unacceptable.

Cutting someone else's line that's entering a corner and forcing him to slow down WITHOUT contact, and keeping both your car and the other person's car on track throughout the whole overtaking manuever, is a clean pass, and is therefore, fair game. As the late, great, legendary Ayrton Senna once said: "If you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver.
 
IMO dive-bombing results in contact; using the car in front of you as brakes when you couldn't make the corner is completely unacceptable.

Cutting someone else's line that's entering a corner and forcing him to slow down WITHOUT contact, and keeping both your car and the other person's car on track throughout the whole overtaking manuever, is a clean pass, and is therefore, fair game. As the late, great, legendary Ayrton Senna once said: "If you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver.

Senna turned the late dive down the inside maneuver into an art form lol. 👍
 
Prost wasn't convinced it was art :P

Prost had, and still does have, a massive amount of respect for Senna's skill behind the wheel. They had a heated rivalry at the peak of Senna's career, and disliked each other for various reasons at the time, but when Prost retired, Senna became one of his best friends, and they both had huge respect for each other.

Prost was a hugely talented driver himself.

*Edit. Most people don't understand what their rivalry was really like, due to the Senna movie's tendency to ignore everything that made Senna look bad, and shine a light on everything that made Prost look bad. They were both very hard racers, and very very talented. Both made questionable moves at times, and both played a very good political game too.
 
Prost had, and still does have, a massive amount of respect for Senna's skill behind the wheel. They had a heated rivalry at the peak of Senna's career, and disliked each other for various reasons at the time, but when Prost retired, Senna became one of his best friends, and they both had huge respect for each other.

Prost was a hugely talented driver himself.

*Edit. Most people don't understand what their rivalry was really like, due to the Senna movie's tendency to ignore everything that made Senna look bad, and shine a light on everything that made Prost look bad. They were both very hard racers, and very very talented. Both made questionable moves at times, and both played a very good political game too.
Anyone really interested 'Senna Versus Prost' by Malcolm Folley is a brilliant book. Gives a huge perspective and some really intriguing facts. After I read it I changed my opinion of their rivalry
 
I also forgot to mention that there are both clean and dirty divebombs.

Basically if you throw it into the corner and pray that by the time you get there it sticks(aka divebomb) and by some miracle it does and neither car has to stray very far from the driving lines or minimal to no contact is made, that's a clean divebomb.

However, if you throw it in and it doesn't stick and you and whoever you dove in on both either go off track or have to move way off line or have massive contact you've committed a dirty divebomb.

The problem with gt6 is that it doesn't really ever stick when you throw it in because there is complete understeer at the edge of traction
 
Possibly a different story if it's on the very last bend of a hard fought race though. Watching the previously large gap you saw on the inside, shrinking down to an "aw heck" moment. You could always say sorry afterwards. With genuinely virtuous sincerity dripping off you of course... I'm sure they'll understand it was a rush of blood and they'd have probably done the same...probably...

Back to talking about less important late corner lunges. I'm prone to rushes of blood and don't want to think about last corner shenanigans. I might be morally adjustable when that situation arises but I do write a very sincere PM'ed sorry.:mischievous:


 
i always make sure im at the back of the pack in a race, because theres always some bugger (or two) who think they can pull of one of those moves on the first corner (especially bathurst). i then cruise casually through the corner and somehow end up in the podium.

This. I even used to use a slightly lower PP car and stayed out if trouble. I'd watch the the first turn carnage, see that car in mirror, let them pass and watch them crash again trying to catch up to the lead car.
 
I think the big problem is the fact that there is no penalty to contact other than understeer. I can go full throttle into the back of a driver and only cause the car to move laterally a bit, and knowing that I can go stupid deep into the corner beside a driver and when I make contact neither of us will spin or get loose, we'll just get understeer at most.

Until PD makes a decent contact model that includes oversteer from contact, you're going to get stupid people doing stupid things.
 
IMO dive-bombing results in contact; using the car in front of you as brakes when you couldn't make the corner is completely unacceptable.

Cutting someone else's line that's entering a corner and forcing him to slow down WITHOUT contact, and keeping both your car and the other person's car on track throughout the whole overtaking manuever, is a clean pass, and is therefore, fair game. As the late, great, legendary Ayrton Senna once said: "If you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver.
No. What is fair in real racing isn't always consistent with what is fair in sim racing, mostly because of differences in visibility. The kind of overtakes that Max Verstappen and Ayrten Senna are known for are unacceptable online.
 
No. What is fair in real racing isn't always consistent with what is fair in sim racing, mostly because of differences in visibility. The kind of overtakes that Max Verstappen and Ayrten Senna are known for are unacceptable online.

Not having a go with you, but can you give some examples of that manouvers?
 
Racing rules in real racing exist to penalise unfair driving, but not discourage hard racing. You may want to read some FIA regulations if you don't believe me on who's responsibility it is to avoid contact. I never said the inside driver could swerve into the outside driver, that's complete rubbish. If a driver is up the inside under brakes, the driver on the outside is responsible for avoiding contact, they can't just take a normal racing line and ignore the driver on the inside. The inside driver only has to make sure to leave one car's width room on the outside of the corner, no more.

According to the FIA sporting regulations, if the outside driver has half a car length lead when turning in, they have a right to stay alongside the inside car. If they are side by side, and the outside car is not leading, then the inside car does NOT have to provide racing room and is allowed to use the entire track width on exit. It is up to the outside car to ensure contact is not made, which is why you'll see real racers yield in these circumstances, because they'd get a penalty if there was contact.

The car making a move on the inside has to have the front of their car at least half way alongside the car on the outside to be allowed racing room. If they are only front wheel to rear wheel it is up to them to avoid contact, and they have no claim to the racing line, so they have to yield if the outside driver chooses to cut in to the apex. A good example would be Rosberg v Hamilton at Spa last year, Rosberg didn't yield in time before hamilton's rear tyre went over his FWEP, so that was Rosberg's fault.

I was describing exactly what I cited as an example: Rosberg v Vettel in Bahrain. Rosberg's moves were on the limit of what would be acceptable because he put his car where it needed to be LEGALLY. Therefore, if Vettel hadn't yielded, it would've been his fault. Too many people get too picky with their own interpretations of what is and isn't fair, simply because they expect to be given enough room everywhere in every situation. Real racing isn't like that, there are very clearly defined rules that have to be adhered to, and if you are following the letter of the law, the other driver can cry on his radio about it all day and it won't make any difference.

I agree with you on the definition of a divebomb, as you described the same thing I did when I said what I considered to be a divebomb. I was explaining that what some people have described as a divebomb is simply a late dive down the inside of an unsuspecting (sleeping and not defending as they should be) driver. One is a ridiculous dive from way back that would never work without hitting the other driver (the divebomb) and the other is a perfectly valid way of overtaking and is recognised as fair in the eyes of the world's governing body of motorsport.
Interesting that you quote a single racing organization and use them to define the rules of all racing.

Is there anything different about (open-wheel) racers that might make them use slightly different rules than cars with covered wheels?
 
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