Driving etiquette: "dive bombing" corners.

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i dont see a problem with dive bombing. it shows the drivers willing to push and risk his race. that to me is a true hard racer. if you know what i mean.
 
SVPSkins
i dont see a problem with dive bombing. it shows the drivers willing to push and risk his race. that to me is a true hard racer. if you know what i mean.
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The term generally refers to people who brake so late they crash into the car ahead of them.
No, I don't know what you mean. Driving like a teenaged imbicile and ruining other people's race just "shows you're racing hard"? Whaaaat?
 
CSLACR
The term generally refers to people who brake so late they crash into the car ahead of them.
No, I don't know what you mean. Driving like a teenaged imbicile and ruining other people's race just "shows you're racing hard"? Whaaaat?
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Which reminds me, I've got a replay I need to upload of an opponents failed divebomb at Aremberg on Nordschleife. It's actually kind of funny, but during the race not so much. My thoughts were "brake much?"
 
SagarisGTB
No. What is fair in real racing isn't always consistent with what is fair in sim racing, mostly because of differences in visibility. The kind of overtakes that Max Verstappen and Ayrten Senna are known for are unacceptable online.
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That's a bit like saying you can only overtake at certain points around a racetrack. That you are not allowed to overtake at anywhere you want; at times you're only permitted to stay behind the car in front and at times you are then allowed to overtake.

I've watched the video, yes. And I can say that I'm pretty sure that, if I were to overtake someone like that in an online race, I'd catch and throw them off guard, in the same way that Verstappen zoomed right up that other guy's right side and caught and threw him off guard. I'm pretty sure their

I think that, the reason why you think it's unacceptable online is because most people who try to pull off such a manuever end up hitting the car in front and just don't give a damn about it. That's not racing. That's uncivilized behavior.
 
=drifting24/7=
That's a bit like saying you can only overtake at certain points around a racetrack. That you are not allowed to overtake at anywhere you want; at times you're only permitted to stay behind the car in front and at times you are then allowed to overtake.

I've watched the video, yes. And I can say that I'm pretty sure that, if I were to overtake someone like that in an online race, I'd catch and throw them off guard, in the same way that Verstappen zoomed right up that other guy's right side and caught and threw him off guard. I'm pretty sure their

I think that, the reason why you think it's unacceptable online is because most people who try to pull off such a manuever end up hitting the car in front and just don't give a damn about it. That's not racing. That's uncivilized behavior.
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The reason it's not acceptable online is that we don't have the same awareness of our surroundings in game that we do in real life. We are looking at everything through a little box and as such you need different rules for etiquette so that we can all have a good time racing under a set of rules that make for clean and fair racing for everyone.
 
=drifting24/7=
That's a bit like saying you can only overtake at certain points around a racetrack. That you are not allowed to overtake at anywhere you want; at times you're only permitted to stay behind the car in front and at times you are then allowed to overtake.
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It's not.
=drifting24/7=
I've watched the video, yes. And I can say that I'm pretty sure that, if I were to overtake someone like that in an online race, I'd catch and throw them off guard, in the same way that Verstappen zoomed right up that other guy's right side and caught and threw him off guard. I'm pretty sure their

I think that, the reason why you think it's unacceptable online is because most people who try to pull off such a manuever end up hitting the car in front and just don't give a damn about it. That's not racing. That's uncivilized behavior.
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I can tell you that moves like that are generally not condoned online, even if they are pulled off cleanly. If you tried that move online, the 'Ericsson' would turn into you as he'd have no way of seeing you coming.

Do you think this overtake is acceptable?

It would be in real life, but in GTP online racing, you require overlap before the braking zone prior to trying a move down the inside. Otherwise, there would be contact on most moves and driving standards would quickly deteriorate.
 
CSLACR
Interesting that you quote a single racing organization and use them to define the rules of all racing.

Is there anything different about (open-wheel) racers that might make them use slightly different rules than cars with covered wheels?
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You realise the FIA is the world's governing body of motorsport, not just Formula 1. FYI CAMS in Australia follow the same regulations regarding overtaking.
 
Done it many times and I race in an online league. It's more of a last gasp thing but it's satisfying when I finish it. I do evaluate whether it's realistic or not and cutting off from the apex is the aim.
 
Mike_grpA
You realise the FIA is the world's governing body of motorsport, not just Formula 1. FYI CAMS in Australia follow the same regulations regarding overtaking.
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So are you saying that every racing series in the world follow "FIA rules", or just trying to give that impression?
I'm just curious, after watching an F1 race and a BTCC race, maybe you can explain to me how they're following the same rule set?
 
I'm not attempting to legitimize it though. That sort of move (a divebomb under braking) was inappropriate in most of the groups I used to race with.

However, it is interesting to see variable opinions on the subject.
 
SagarisGTB
I'm not attempting to legitimize it though. That sort of move (a divebomb under braking) was inappropriate in most of the groups I used to race with.
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I remember mine and @BrandonW77's clashes on the subject back in the day. I'm certainly a lot less strict on it than a lot of others around.
 
CSLACR
So are you saying that every racing series in the world follow "FIA rules", or just trying to give that impression?
I'm just curious, after watching an F1 race and a BTCC race, maybe you can explain to me how they're following the same rule set?
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I was responding to your post saying that the FIA rules only applied to open wheel racing, which is untrue. I never said every series in the world is sanctioned by the FIA, but if you look at the rules on overtaking in all top motorsport series, they are largely the same. In the instance of overtaking under brakes, I don't know of a series that doesn't follow the rules I stated earlier.
 
My view of divebombing is that it can be a skillful way to pass and doesn't have to result in contact. If the car on the inside outbrakes the car on the outside, hits the apex and makes a clean exit and a clean pass then it's a sucsessful divebomb.

On the other hand, if the inside car outbrakes the outside car and is clearly not going to hit the apex and run way offline while sacrificing their own speed and position and possible damage to their car and the car they're attempting to pass then I'd call it an unsuccessful divebomb.

Obviously the driver needs to make some critical decisions before they put themselves in the position to divebomb. Can I hit the apex and make a clean pass and exit? Will I contact the other car? Can/will the other driver see me when he goes to hit the apex?

Of course in Gran Turismo, the consequences aren't as dire as in real life. I personally like to race as clean and as pretty as possible. I don't like making ugly passes, scratching up my cars and driving through the grass to pass. That's just me though.... Your millage may vary...
 
Mike_grpA
I was responding to your post saying that the FIA rules only applied to open wheel racing, which is untrue. I never said every series in the world is sanctioned by the FIA, but if you look at the rules on overtaking in all top motorsport series, they are largely the same. In the instance of overtaking under brakes, I don't know of a series that doesn't follow the rules I stated earlier.
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But your point is still irrelevant, saying divebombing is a clean and legitimate overtake because the FIA says so isn't a valid reason, no one cares what the FIA says, they are far from infallible.
 
Spurgy 777
But your point is still irrelevant, saying divebombing is a clean and legitimate overtake because the FIA says so isn't a valid reason, no one cares what the FIA says, they are far from infallible.
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In what post did I say divebombing was clean? or the FIA said so? I gave my opinion on what divebombing is, which was the same as a lot of people, and said that some people are overly picky with what they consider divebombing to be. Some people are claiming almost any move down the inside is a dive bomb, and it just isn't.

I also care more about real racing rules than some random's opinion online, and I'd be willing to bet I'm not the only one, so to say no one cares what the FIA says with regards to racing regulations is just plain wrong.
 
Mike_grpA
In what post did I say divebombing was clean? or the FIA said so? I gave my opinion on what divebombing is, which was the same as a lot of people, and said that some people are overly picky with what they consider divebombing to be. Some people are claiming almost any move down the inside is a dive bomb, and it just isn't.
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The Verstappen overtake on Ericsson was a textbook example of a divebomb, the FIA say that was a clean overtake, as far as I know you do too. Saying that it wasn't a divebomb because there wasn't contact is nonsense, the only reason there wasn't contact was because Ericsson took evasive action.

I also care more about real racing rules than some random's opinion online, and I'd be willing to bet I'm not the only one, so to say no one cares what the FIA says with regards to racing regulations is just plain wrong.
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You do realise I wasn't being literal when I said no one cares, there are 7 billion people on the planet, I'm sure you could find one person who cares about just about anything. :lol: My point was that, as far as I know, the FIA doesn't provide any explanation or reasoning behind their rules, making their rules irrelevant to the discussion, and not a valid basis for an argument. If you can find an explanation from the FIA why the rules are the way they are, then by all means it's worth discussing.
 
SagarisGTB
No. What is fair in real racing isn't always consistent with what is fair in sim racing, mostly because of differences in visibility. The kind of overtakes that Max Verstappen and Ayrten Senna are known for are unacceptable online.
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SagarisGTB
It's not.
I can tell you that moves like that are generally not condoned online, even if they are pulled off cleanly. If you tried that move online, the 'Ericsson' would turn into you as he'd have no way of seeing you coming.

Do you think this overtake is acceptable?

It would be in real life, but in GTP online racing, you require overlap before the braking zone prior to trying a move down the inside. Otherwise, there would be contact on most moves and driving standards would quickly deteriorate.
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Yes in real life that is a perfect acceptable move but online sim racing its a no to me. A move like that 99.9% causes contact as the driver who is been passed cannot see (driving view dependent) the car which is making the pass until to late then contact is made. You need to have two compliant drivers to produce a clean move like that online which you had in that situation. Where normally the car getting past would just turn into the apex normally not seeing the car making the pass.

The main reason which has already been said is the view you have (a tv screen) compared to a normal view in a car. Im sure that people will notice while driving in a real car that you can have a good all round view most of the time, In a sim you have a view of a tv screen looking straight in front of you and your not going to have much chance to see a late move like that while you turn into the corner.

It's a mixed thought on diving bombing but in a sim you have to note that both drivers have a limited view which needs to be taken into account and unless you trust, you have raced a few times with them and the driver is compliant then a move like that will produce contact spoiling both drivers race.
 
FIA sporting regulations have been worked out over decades, and I'm sure hundreds of disputes between drivers over the fairness of incidents would have shaped them. It's not like someone just randomly said "let's make the rules like this", without any knowledge or reasoning behind it.

How are the rules of the world's governing body of motorsport, and the sanctioning body of the biggest motorsport series' in the world, irrelevant to a discussion about driving etiquette? I also said that CAMS in Australia follow the same rules for overtaking, and I'm yet to find a series irl that doesn't, so it's not just the FIA that uses those rules.

That move by Verstappen was another one of those borderline moves, like the Rosberg ones. He kept the car within the confines of the track, and had his car alongside the Sauber by the turn in point. It was a ballsy move, and if any more aggressive would have resulted in a penalty I'd say. But the stewards can't give a penalty for that because he was alongside by the turn in point, and kept the car on the track. The Sauber was caught napping, you could tell that by him not defending, and then almost turning right into Verstappen. You have to give the benefit of the doubt in a situation so borderline, or the fans would get up in arms about it.

Edit* On the subject of sim racing having a limited view compared with real racing, that's not exactly true. In sim racing, even in bumper cam you still can have a large mirror, and you don't have a helmet on giving you a letterbox view of the track. You have a worse view than someone driving a road car on the road, but F1 drivers have an extremely limited view around them, and they can still abide by the rules. You just need situational awareness.
 
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Mike_grpA
Edit* On the subject of sim racing having a limited view compared with real racing, that's not exactly true. In sim racing, even in bumper cam you still can have a large mirror, and you don't have a helmet on giving you a letterbox view of the track. You have a worse view than someone driving a road car on the road, but F1 drivers have an extremely limited view around them, and they can still abide by the rules. You just need situational awareness.
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Not everyone uses bumper cam, that will not change and event that view is limited while turning into a corner, even with a helmet and in F1 cars you can move your head to view the apex and give you a better view which allows you more time to see a car coming up late. Basically a sim gives you tunnel vision in what you can see.

I agree in situational awareness but again both drivers need to comply.
 
Have you seen the view F1 drivers get? They can't see much looking sideways because of the head protection of the cockpit. They can't see much past their side mirrors, and with a helmet on you literally do have tunnel vision.

I agree you haven't got a great view in sims, but there are quite a few race cars that, while wearing a helmet, you've got even poorer vision. Also a lot of racing games have a warning indicator when someone is close by, so you can see them in your mirror and then they disappear and an indicator appears on your side, you're not exactly blind.
 
F1 drivers also aren't perfect. (note Bahrain where Vettel and Rosberg both stuffed up) and they race differently to GT6. It is probably a greater difference between an Audi RS6 and A2 than the RS6 and an F1 car, or even a Pagani Huyuara thing than an F1 car. For GT6, it is more applicable to use some rules:
Don't hit people on purpose
Don't brake ridiculously late and hope that the other person is feeling nice enough to meekly cede the position
Try to get alongside before passing
you could relax these rules a bit if its the last lap or something
 
Mike_grpA
I was responding to your post saying that the FIA rules only applied to open wheel racing, which is untrue. I never said every series in the world is sanctioned by the FIA, but if you look at the rules on overtaking in all top motorsport series, they are largely the same. In the instance of overtaking under brakes, I don't know of a series that doesn't follow the rules I stated earlier.
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If I'm not mistaken, FIA holds some of the most ***-up racing in the world, races where people intentionally let other people win, and if they don't, they can get fired. (teammates)
Pardon me, I couldn't care less what that ridiculous organization does. I like real racing.
 
CSLACR
If I'm not mistaken, FIA holds some of the most ***-up racing in the world, races where people intentionally let other people win, and if they don't, they can get fired. (teammates)
Pardon me, I couldn't care less what that ridiculous organization does. I like real racing.
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I'm not going to bother trying to explain when and where team orders is useful in motorsport, and it doesn't just exist in FIA sanctioned series' so I guess you're just trolling now. I'd love to know what you think "real racing" is when you don't consider F1, WEC, F3, Fe, Karting World Championship, ETCC, WTCC, Historic F1 and Sports Cars, WRC, WRX, and about 20 other series "real racing"...


Anyway this is going around and around in circles and I think we've all had our say.
 
Mike_grpA
I'm not going to bother trying to explain when and where team orders is useful in motorsport, and it doesn't just exist in FIA sanctioned series' so I guess you're just trolling now. I'd love to know what you think "real racing" is when you don't consider F1, WEC, F3, Fe, Karting World Championship, ETCC, WTCC, Historic F1 and Sports Cars, WRC, WRX, and about 20 other series "real racing"...


Anyway this is going around and around in circles and I think we've all had our say.
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Wow, now I'm tolling?

I'm sorry this didn't go the (waaaa) way you wanted (sniff sniff) I'll leave you win now. 👍
 
CSLACR
Wow, now I'm tolling?

I'm sorry this didn't go the (waaaa) way you wanted (sniff sniff) I'll leave you win now. 👍
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Lol what do you call that then? nvm, just conveniently ignore everything and go for the immature, yet poor, attempt at a comeback. Good job 👍
 
CSLACR
Driving like a teenaged imbicile and ruining other people's race just "shows you're racing hard"? Whaaaat?
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The current crop of teenage sportscar drivers are much less into divebombs than a lot of the seasoned guys. Age has no bearing on this.

Divembombing... if you come from nowhere and use a sizeable amount of contact to get by, not really on. If you're fairly close anyway and give a rub, depending on the situation, it could be OK. Divebombing is only really acceptable in RX.
 

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