Driving techniques - Heel Toe Downshift

[///M-Spec]

Really? When I still had my Neon, I could run about that in 2nd and still not be at redline yet.

Different cars have different gearing.

The 330i is geared fairly short, but so are many other performance oriented cars that depend on high revs to get their performance. I can think of many cars in which 2nd gear will not get them past 70 mph. Heck, some cars like the Lancer Evolution are geared so short 2nd will not get them past 60. I think a stock Evo's 2nd gear is good for something like 57 mph.

I would suspect your Neon had fairly tall gears optimized for fuel economy rather than quick 0-60s.


M

 

[Diablomonkey]

WOW thank you guys this has opened my eye to a lot!

 

[wfooshee]

My 2nd-gen Probe GT is at about 7200 at 65 in 2nd, so I've run courses I needed 3rd. I've also run courses where a short burst would take me to 6800 in 1st, but wasn't worth taking 2nd for just a few yards, with 2nd gear dropping almost 3 grand at that point, having to shift up, then right back down.

 

[kennythebomb]

Well I have good news.

I studied the steps you guys outlined, and in my cubicle at work I 'practiced' going through the motions. Not long after I got in my car I found myself slowing down on the highway, perfect opportunity to try rev matching without braking. Did it right the first time. Did it right the subsequent times also.

After I got off at my exit, I found a fairly open and empty industrial park and practiced actual heel and toe. I got it right 3/4 times.

So I'm well on my way to learning it, I need a lot more practice but it's not really too hard. Thanks for all the help!

 

[Keef]

Well, you're lucky. You must have a good pedal setup in your car. My pedals are just all wrong, and many hours of trying to find the right foot positon and motion hasn't yet gotten any repeatable results.

 

[kennythebomb]

Well, you're lucky. You must have a good pedal setup in your car. My pedals are just all wrong, and many hours of trying to find the right foot positon and motion hasn't yet gotten any repeatable results.

Well before I put my car in gear (I sat there for a few minutes) I tried placing my foot in different positions. I believe when my foot was pointed NE my foot felt insecure, like it was ready to slip off of the brake pedal. Then I tried having my foot point straight north and if I tipped my foot to the right I was able to blip the throttle and maintain braking pressure. Then I tried pointing my foot NW and that seemed the most secure. I don't know if that's the proper way to do it, but it worked for me.

 

[wfooshee]

Well before I put my car in gear (I sat there for a few minutes) I tried placing my foot in different positions. I believe when my foot was pointed NE my foot felt insecure, like it was ready to slip off of the brake pedal. Then I tried having my foot point straight north and if I tipped my foot to the right I was able to blip the throttle and maintain braking pressure. Then I tried pointing my foot NW and that seemed the most secure. I don't know if that's the proper way to do it, but it worked for me.

In my Probe I'm very slightly pigeon-toed, just a bit towards NW.

 

[kennythebomb]

In my Probe I'm very slightly pigeon-toed, just a bit towards NW.

Cool

 

[kikie]

Ya kinda spun around a couple times, but I think the video is helpful in terms of seeing heel and toe in action.

Yeah, it's stupid but I really forgot what track I was driving on (hard to believe maybe but it's the truth).

 

[Keef]

Who cares if you went off the track. The footwork is the important part. And I think I need to get a better computer and that game! But really what I want is for heel and toeing to be that easy in a real car.

 

[wfooshee]

It is, once you've done it enough. Just like anything you get good at, it's not even a conscious thought once you're doing it.

 

[kennythebomb]

I tried heel and toe on my way home from work today, this time on an actual street (not as relaxed as the previous environment) and I must have done something wrong because when I went from third to second it seems like the car jerked more... is that possible?

 

[Keef]

Sure it's possible. You just didn't rev it correctly.

 

[backspace]

I tried heel and toe on my way home from work today, this time on an actual street (not as relaxed as the previous environment) and I must have done something wrong because when I went from third to second it seems like the car jerked more... is that possible?

Of course. You might have blipped the throttle and brought the rev's up little too high, then let off the clutch a little too fast, which makes the car jerk forward harder then normal.

 

[kennythebomb]

Of course. You might have blipped the throttle and brought the rev's up little too high, then let off the clutch a little too fast, which makes the car jerk forward harder then normal.

That sounds about what I did... ooh modulation is hard.

 

[sn00pie]

 

[Slick Rick]

arrhhhh! I tried it today but I couldn't do it. I had the ball of my foot on the brake and had my heel free but I couldn't reach the accelerator. The only way I could is if I broke quite hard and even then I couldn't rev enough.

I had a look at my pedals and from the front it looks like their correctly spaced but when I looked at them a different angle I was surprised to see how far back the accelerator was. Does this mean I cant do heel-toe downshift in my car?

 

[wfooshee]

Those actually look pretty good, depends on how far the brake travels in use. You'll probably need to go a bit pigeon-toed, have your foot on the upper part of the brake pedal.
I've seen people go to the trouble of mounting a spacer block on the gas pedal to bring it up. I don't think that's warranted, here. The gas won't be under your heel, it'll be more like the bones behind your small toe, which is perfect. Keep in mind a block would need to be firmly attached, not interfere with anything, and you'd have to live with the difference in all other aspects of driving.

 

[Slick Rick]

Oh yea, also how far back do you think I should have my seat, whats the best driving position for this?

 

[Swift]

Oh yea, also how far back do you think I should have my seat, whats the best driving position for this?

Check this out.

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_seating.shtml

 

[Slick Rick]

Cool, thanks. Ill have another go at it soon.

 

[Bram Turismo]

How about going down from steep hills?

I'm being told that braking on the engine is best, that if I feel the car is accelerating very quickly when going downhill and I'm coming towards a corner, I need to shift down. Even though I'll maybe go into 4- 5000 RPM, the car seems to lose speed rapidly and seems to be very effective.

Is this method bad in any way?

 

[wfooshee]

Downshifting on a downhill will make braking easier, and if you're coming down from say, a Pike's Peak afternoon, lower gears will be required to keep your brakes alive. (They check your brakes with an heat-sensing gun about halfway down, and park you if it's over a certain threshold. They've never parked me.)
My stepson lives in El Paso, and I had a devil of a time convincing him (I'm not sure I ever did) that when he comes down 375 across the mountain north of town that he'd do better downshifting instead of riding the brakes.
That's not a big enough hill for brake fade to be a danger, but if he does it every time he crosses the mountain, he'll be buying brake pads every 10,000 miles at least. He thought he was wasting gas by the engine revving in the lower gear. My answer was 2-fold: A fuel-injected engine uses NO GAS on overrun, so how could it be wasting any? Then, even if it used gas, how much does gas cost compared to brakes?

 

[Swift]

How about going down from steep hills?

I'm being told that braking on the engine is best, that if I feel the car is accelerating very quickly when going downhill and I'm coming towards a corner, I need to shift down. Even though I'll maybe go into 4- 5000 RPM, the car seems to lose speed rapidly and seems to be very effective.

Is this method bad in any way?

It's putting a lot of unneeded stress on your car's engine. You're better off breaking. The main advantage of that will be in a RWD car, since it wouldn't put the weight on the front wheels.

But anyway, use your brakes, they're cheaper and easier to replace then engine components.

 

[Scaff]

It's putting a lot of unneeded stress on your car's engine. You're better off breaking. The main advantage of that will be in a RWD car, since it wouldn't put the weight on the front wheels.

But anyway, use your brakes, they're cheaper and easier to replace then engine components.

One other exception also exists.

The lower gear and feet off all the pedals is a common one for off-road driving, faced with a steep descent you stick the car in low range & a low gear and just take your feet off the pedals. Automatic 4-5mph descent.

👍

Scaff

 

[rotary_freq]

Oddly enough, the heel toe technique is somthing I've been familiar with due to having so many crappy cars. I spose when your brakes only half work you learn **** real fast.

 

[wfooshee]

I've just done something which forces me to confess to posting erroneus information. I have an excuse. Really.
Due to a back injury which prevents me from 1: comfortably operating the clutch pedal, and 2: getting into the dang car in the first place, I have been driving my wife's (no laughing, please) Mercury Grand Marquis. I said, no laughing.

Anyway, I got in the Probe just a minute ago to take it around the block (not good to let something sit for weeks at a time, so despite the ache, I drive it every couple of weekends. Anyway, my foot position is NOT pigeon-toed in this car, it's quite naturally slightly right of upright, and I operate the gas with my toes. Apologies to Kennythebomb for *lying/misstating/uttering falsehood*. You should be very slightly NE in a Probe.

The car I was remembering is my son's Miata, in which the pedals are spaced further apart, and in which I really do have to reach a bit for the gas by turning my heel outward.

Another good visual reference for heel/toe is the Monaco sequence in Grand Prix. Surely everyone here has, or can find a way to watch that! The street car technique is no different from what they do, although perhaps not as quick.

I will add that although I've been using heel/toe for far longer than I've had my Probe, this car would have forced me to learn, as it will not idle. Never has. They did all kinds of crap to it while it was in warranty, always came back just a bit different, not quite as good, but never idling. It stalls right down, not even a cough, if you don't keep throttle on when the clutch is disengaged or neutral is selected. I have to hold the brake and keep some throttle while waiting at a light. After the warranty expired, they covered the first attempt when I took it back since it had been an ongoing problem, but said they wouldn't after that. I quit taking it back, and told everybody I knew that the local Ford dealership (including you guys, now) were crooks.

 

[Pupik]

Okay, one side question...How does one heal-toe without a tach?

My Neon usually just required two presses of the clutch pedal for smooth downshifts at 3rd-2nd gears (yes, I downshifted into 1st roughly twice a week back then to get the most thrust out of 128hp, or to stop RIGHT NOW...old people). However, every attempt to use the heel-toe method failed for me when changing to 4th, because I had to listen to the engine.

Any tips on this?

(By the way, after 180,000 miles, the Neon never needed a new clutch or throwout bearing, although I went through one clutch release cable early on. I know downshifting to 1st is an evil, stupid, and nearly pointless thing to do to a car, but hey, I never broke it.)

 

[Swift]

Okay, one side question...How does one heal-toe without a tach?

My Neon usually just required two presses of the clutch pedal for smooth downshifts at 3rd-2nd gears (yes, I downshifted into 1st roughly twice a week back then to get the most thrust out of 128hp, or to stop RIGHT NOW...old people). However, every attempt to use the heel-toe method failed for me when changing to 4th, because I had to listen to the engine.

Any tips on this?

(By the way, after 180,000 miles, the Neon never needed a new clutch or throwout bearing, although I went through one clutch release cable early on. I know downshifting to 1st is an evil, stupid, and nearly pointless thing to do to a car, but hey, I never broke it.)

I did it all the time in my 99 cavalier. You simply have to learn how the engine sounds at specific RPM's. Even when you have a tach you don't look down everything your rev-match.

It's actually the very same thing, it'll just take a bit longer because you don't have a specific RPM to shoot for.

 

[wfooshee]

Okay, one side question...How does one heal-toe without a tach?

If you're looking at the tach, you're not looking at the upcoming situation (curve, apex, intersection, traffic, etc.) The only thing a tach is good for is setting the idle (and if you don't have a rev limiter, finding the redline.) Everything you do in the car is by sound.

And I was going to preach to you about downshifting to 1st, especially pointless if coming to a stop, but you already confessed, and hopefully repented. OTOH, you'd need that once in a while on an autocross course.