E3 2011: The Parallel Paths of Forza Motorsport 4

  • Thread starter Bogie 19th
  • 392 comments
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Bonefork
Wow, man, calm yourself down. Are you even reading my posts? Because I said NEITHER game has it. I don't know much about PC sims but I doubt they do either.

I'm calling BS on the idea that these games are doing any of these alleged calculations and all you can do is flip your lid. In debate that's an instant loss. Never mind the fact that this all stems from someone claiming GT5 does it and Forza doesn't.

There's a crap-load of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence in this thread and still no PROOF of these claims. Provide the developer statement you claim exists, and I'll crown you king of Google and proceed to shut up -- hell, I'll even pledge to leave and never return -- otherwise, don't piss on me and tell me it's simulated rain.

Unlike some people I actually do a little research before I speak, and there was nothing in Google about developers discussing wind physics for racing games. Sorry.
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Nail on the head,you make mods right?
 
Wind physics is so complex and would require such a powerful system to work real time.. it just doesn't work now. What we have are assumptions and a simulation wind model to work. It's not dead nuts accurate but it's there. The good thing about it is you can adjust aero's downforce to get better handling or top speed and in Forza if you damage it, just like in real life, the aero's advantage goes out the door.
 
I just got back from having a smoke, sat down, read your reply... and I just don't care.

I don't. I don't care that you're here, I don't care if the game has it or not. I should have just took a second to think about it before posting anything at all. It doesn't matter, nothing matters in this.

What matters is that I enjoy playing both forza and gran turismo and that I have fun with both games. My perceptions of what is and what isn't is not always going to match that of someone else. And I don't care if it ever does.

I spoke up because I'm tired of the countless trolling going on across every thread in the Forza section that I look at. Truth is, I should continue to just skip your posts and not let it bother me, but today, I dunno, maybe I just needed a cig or something. But I'm back to not caring.

SO, ignore the past couple posts, and continue your discussion or debate with the others. I'll wait on some on-topic conversation to jump in on and discuss Forza 4 from E3.
 
Yep, starting to see why that was a good idea to just remove the post I made about what shows up when you look for wind in Forza 3, without making a fuss :)
 
cuco33
Wind physics is so complex and would require such a powerful system to work real time.. it just doesn't work now. What we have are assumptions and a simulation wind model to work. It's not dead nuts accurate but it's there. The good thing about it is you can adjust aero's downforce to get better handling or top speed and in Forza if you damage it, just like in real life, the aero's advantage goes out the door.
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Not exactly.

It entirely depends on how you simulate the wind.

You can try making a fluid like model which tries to simulate the wind in real time or you can do this prior to the game and just make the car get the same effect at the same time by increasing/decreasing its drag coefficient and make faster/slower without having to completely simulate the wind. i.e have the wind effect pre simulated and just apply the results in real time.

The second method, I believe is what FM3 does and FM4 likely will.
 
Digitool
What matters is that I enjoy playing both forza and gran turismo and that I have fun with both games.
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Right on, I didn't take anything personal. 👍

I'm a programmer killing time waiting for a steering wheel I ordered by sharing what I know with whoever wants to read it here. It's okay if people disagree or think I might be wrong because I might be.

I really like the article in the OP because it's been saying what I've been saying about physics since I joined this forum: our implementations of physics in games is very rudimentary and mostly guess-work despite the 'smoke and mirrors' that fool you into thinking otherwise. I only bother trying because people get so heated with each other over which game has better physics and it's just a ridiculous argument with a lot of misinformation. It's refreshing to hear Turn 10 admit it, their ability to be truthful about it directly translates to their ability to tell the truth with their physics engine: the best they reasonably can for now.

I'd love to hear some of these developers discuss the different aspects of their systems in public, but I have the feeling that if they did the general population would find it very lackluster; so the mysticism is in their favor. You really can fit what we've done so far in a small book, up until only 10 or so years ago we didn't even calculate physics independently for each tire.

for fun: supplemental reading

akiraacecombat
Interesting,do they made you work with their own tools or UE3 like everyone else.
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I'm on the networking end, the only technology I've had to use so far is Xbox Live Server Platform, which is exactly what it sounds like. The code I write for games is all portable one-off interface or socket stuff. Make no mistake, I couldn't design a physics system or lighting engine to save my life... okay maybe to save my life, but it would be really damn hard!
 
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Bonefork is saying something valid. It can just be a set of parameters and variables that are put into work instead of a 'full track-based wind' or whatever, the former can make it look like the latter exists, but we don't know the working inside the physics engine of the game.

Also, it is equally likely the developers can be lying or exaggerating (although I doubt they claimed anything like that in the first place), just like Kaz has done before.
 
I went to school for 3d modeling for video games and cinematics, my programming skills are basic html. That says it all right there... however I ended up going back to college for mechanical design anyway, so my opinions and whatnot are all related to what i've read or heard from the developers themselves.

/shrug

like i said, it is what it is. was what it was.
 
akiraacecombat
So yeah,almost every FM thread goes to the stupid GT vs FM discussion,so be proud of yourselves.

In topics regarding FM4 I have to say that the "Dynamic difficulty" is something that I'm eager to see,for the *eagle eye viewer*,I started to notice that the game reads the player's racing line and speed(closer look to the Sim racing Demo),also the shaking effect is correct in faster cars(not unbearable camera shaking like in Shift 2)and AI overall seem now correct.

And Turn10 must withdraw the driving aid ,or at least make it be able to be disable.

Plenty of things to discuss that are actually important and you guys goes down to FM vs GT :indiff:

(I'm just realising that I'm starting to hate the FM fandom and not the game itself)
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👎
that's a big negative. I was only comparing development times of the Forza series and the GT series. Both companies should be proud of their accomplishments!

Relax and have a homebrew.
:cheers:
 
Just gone back to FM3 after Dirt3 and wow, FM3 felt really slow at first and my cornering was way off.

It all feels massively boring now though, after 18 months or so. The new game definitely needs more variety in terms of track types, even if it doesn't go full rally or offer something vaguely open-world other than Benchmark/TGTT.
 
R34EVO9
whats up with this .. not to be a gt5 fan boy but hes really making fun of gt5 and getting away with it....
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Where, exactly, is he making fun of GT5? :odd:
Forza is just doing stuff that GT isn't, or trying to do stuff well that GT does bad. Some of that stuff is actually emphasized on in that video, that's basically all there is to it.

Edit:
Oh, and by the way:
If he's making fun of it for a valid reason, I still wouldn't see something wrong with that :sly:
 
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R34EVO9
http://www.forzamotorsport.net/en-us/display.aspx?id=23622320128&blogid=71

whats up with this .. not to be a gt5 fan boy but hes really making fun of gt5 and getting away with it....
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hzPad.jpg
 
t.o.
Even if he is what's Kaz going to do about it? Beat him up, sue him? Even if he Kaz does we all know it wont happen until about 6 years from now.
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Well, yeah Sony would have to sue hundreds of people if they wanted to take anyone out who's been making fun of them.
If I had a dime for every "It only does... Nothing." picture I've seen during the PSN outage, I'd be driving to work in a brand new Porsche.
 
Luminis
Forza is just doing stuff that GT isn't, or trying to do stuff well that GT does bad.
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Straight from my mouth. And they actually do it after GT.

Where the real innovations here?
Maybe outstanding real-time damage? (Burnout quality, but with much less degree) or "track damage"...?
Superb weather system? (wind that affects, smoke, rain, dust, trees etc...)
Penalties, pit-stops, tire/fuel wear, team management etc...?
Smooth Day/Night transition that blows us away?
Maybe real driving school?
Or real "Forza" car?
Seriously - where is new racing experience? When I feel that I'm playing something serious, with all consequences, (penalties, fuel/tire wear, mechanical damage etc...) with unpredictable moments (weather change) from beginning (qualify) to end. (car repair)

I mean give us something we haven't seen yet! (or quality like that)
What they can is really "good" PR company as always. They can talk hours about very basic things like they are "new and innovative"

Vista mode is ok but mister Dan talks about it like it's whole new unbelievable world. Huh - we've heard it 2 years ago... Image-based lightning...Ha-ha with same quality track lightning that makes that "image"... And with claws on wheel...

GT does not do this innovations perfectly (by any means) but they've dare to try.

Looking forward to FM4 thus. Hope is dying last.
 
alucard0712
Straight from my mouth. And they actually do it after GT.

Where the real innovations here?
Maybe outstanding real-time damage? (Burnout quality, but with much less degree) or "track damage"...?
Superb weather system? (wind that affects, smoke, rain, dust, trees etc...)
Penalties, pit-stops, tire/fuel wear, team management etc...?
Smooth Day/Night transition that blows us away?
Maybe real driving school?
Or real "Forza" car?
Seriously - where is new racing experience? When I feel that I'm playing something serious, with all consequences, (penalties, fuel/tire wear, mechanical damage etc...) with unpredictable moments (weather change) from beginning (qualify) to end. (car repair)

I mean give us something we haven't seen yet! (or quality like that)
What they can is really "good" PR company as always. They can talk hours about very basic things like they are "new and innovative"

Vista mode is ok but mister Dan talks about it like it's whole new unbelievable world. Huh - we've heard it 2 years ago... Image-based lightning...Ha-ha with same quality track lightning that makes that "image"... And with claws on wheel...

GT does not do this innovations perfectly (by any means) but they've dare to try.

Looking forward to FM4 thus. Hope is dying last.
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Not sure if we will ever see much innovations in racing games. Everything you have listed above has been done by other racing games for years and years on PC. All the console games are doing now are implementing those features now that consoles have PC power from yesteryear.

If you want innovation in racing, avoid Forza and GT (GT has not innovated either). If you want fun simulation games on console, play Forza and GT.
 
Bogie 19th
Not sure if we will ever see much innovations in racing games. Everything you have listed above has been done by other racing games for years and years on PC. All the console games are doing now are implementing those features now that consoles have PC power from yesteryear.

If you want innovation in racing, avoid Forza and GT (GT has not innovated either). If you want fun simulation games on console, play Forza and GT.
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What games do you recommend?
I know what you talking about but graphics (immerse, visual impression) is very important to me. I can feel much easer like I'm in real car. Does graphics matter if those pure racing features are correctly implemented? (I have no chance to try some PC sims right now)
 
alucard0712
What games do you recommend?
I know what you talking about but graphics (immerse, visual impression) is very important to me. I can feel much easer like I'm in real car. Does graphics matter if those pure racing features are correctly implemented? (I have no chance to try some PC sims right now)
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You graphics junkies screwed with Kaz's head-look what happened.

Sounds like you need Mario kart btw.
 
the autocross/track editor in live for speed is pretty awesome. implementing something similar in gt5/forza 4 shouldn't be too much to ask.
 
Bogie 19th
The track editor in PGR4 wasn't that bad either, though not very elaborate.
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PGR4 has a track editor,I need to check that out.

Also I hope that FM4 bring lan multiplayer,I known is pretty outdated but It would be nice to have it,specially for parties and stuff.
 
alucard0712
Straight from my mouth. And they actually do it after GT.

Where the real innovations here?
Maybe outstanding real-time damage? (Burnout quality, but with much less degree) or "track damage"...?
Superb weather system? (wind that affects, smoke, rain, dust, trees etc...)
Penalties, pit-stops, tire/fuel wear, team management etc...?
Smooth Day/Night transition that blows us away?
Maybe real driving school?
Or real "Forza" car?
Seriously - where is new racing experience? When I feel that I'm playing something serious, with all consequences, (penalties, fuel/tire wear, mechanical damage etc...) with unpredictable moments (weather change) from beginning (qualify) to end. (car repair)

I mean give us something we haven't seen yet! (or quality like that)
What they can is really "good" PR company as always. They can talk hours about very basic things like they are "new and innovative"

Vista mode is ok but mister Dan talks about it like it's whole new unbelievable world. Huh - we've heard it 2 years ago... Image-based lightning...Ha-ha with same quality track lightning that makes that "image"... And with claws on wheel...

GT does not do this innovations perfectly (by any means) but they've dare to try.

Looking forward to FM4 thus. Hope is dying last.
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Yeah it seems very odd to omit pit stops at the very least. In PC sims you always start out in a pit, etc so its a shock when playing the console racers and it's missing.

Dan keeps saying its all about the cars but how about innovating to bring in more elements from real races like the pits, qualifying laps, spotter, etc. These are things PC sims have had for many years from what I have seen for the past few months I've been playing

To be fair, Forza has some unique features all PC sims lack. So not trying to trash it. But from what I can tell it doesn't seem too innovative (as far as moving a little closer to realism)

That being said, they doing a lot of things in a big way like that Perrili Tire (tyre) system, GPS scanned tracks, etc. Just bring on the pits & dynamic weather system + tyre/fuel consumption
 

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