Do you feel the ffb is very light on turn in and a little loose on the straight like there's a dead zone that wasn't there before the patch?It's not disabled but SMS have it listed as a high priority fix now that they're properly aware of the issue (not sure what happened before but they didn't fix it). Hopefully soon
I dunno. It definitely feels a bit different, can't quite put my finger on it. I'd say turning in requires more effort now though. Turned down the master scale a bit but haven't tested a lot really.Do you feel the ffb is very light on turn in and a little loose on the straight like there's a dead zone that wasn't there before the patch?
Same here. I'm currently taking out each car to tune it's FFB settings, before i get further into the game and start tuning the suspension.
Basically: Master scale: don't up it too much, 26 is fine in most cases.
Fx: FFB when acc/braking
Fy: How heavy your wheel feels when cornering
Fz: How much FFB over bumps and kerbs
Mz: How much FFB when losing traction
Once you start playing around with those sliders, it has a great effect on all of the cars, and compensates for any 'lack off' or 'to much' effects on your particular wheel.
I use the defaults but make sure to set the following:
Make sure the FFB strength slider in game is at 100%
The CSWv2 defaults but with SPR-Off and DPR-Off.
How much feedback you get through the wheel on curbs depends on a per car basis. The steering and suspension geometry as well as wheel alignment and tyre pressure must all have such an impact on the tyre's instability that it's easily affected by a curb. In other words the tyre must be able to easily push on the tie-rods.
- Soft tyres = lots of dampening of feedback
- Camber affects contact patch size and grip. If the tyre has grip it won't be easily upset even on a sawtooth curb
- Caster changes the angle of the Spindle/Tie-rod arm that is on the spindle. So it also affects the FFB.
There is a value in the per car FFB settings (under vehicle setup) that's called "Spindle Arm Angle". Playing around with that value can make a difference in how the FFB feels and reacts.
I am sure you are wondering... "but dude... when you go over a big sawtooth curb in real life you can definitely feel it through the wheel".
Yes, you can feel it through the wheel but where does it come from? When the tyres rise and fall onto and off of the curbs it produces a verticle impact. This impact is caught and dampened by your... tyres, springs and dampers.
However, the energy of the shock isn't being removed. The energy travels through the strut tower (which you can see under the hood or bonnet of the car) where the top of the shocks are mounted. It than goes through the metal of your entire chassis as a huge vibration.
Your seat is mounted to the floor pan, but your steering wheel is actually secured to the car's firewall. Often near your master brake cylinder. So the vibrations also go through that firewall as it's part of the chassis and reach up to your steering wheel.
Now if you ever drive on a stone road or even an off-road surface try to grab your wheel with one hand and your dash (also secured to the firewall) with the other hand. Now if you feel the vibrations same vibrations through the dash and your wheel, and as a third your seat, than those are vibrations that act upon the car vertically. It is not the energy that moves the wheels and pushes on the tie-rods which move the steering rack.
Back to pCARS. The FFB is actually simulating the steering rack movement by calculating the spindle's movement which is influenced by tyre physics.
My advice, if you really wish to feel the curbs in a proper manner, is that you invest in Simvibe and at least one Buttkicker tactile speaker (best 4 for chassis mode, giving you the vibration energy from all 4 points/struts of the car). The vibrations will than go through your desk, chair or best... rig. It will than travel in the same manner as it would in a real car, since your rig is your chassis.
Also if you're on console audio tactile is the only other option you have.
I am sure you might wonder why I give this advice and haven't opted at WMD during development to give us more 'curb feel'. This is due to how the energy travels in a car. Since the vibrations don't upset the steering movement (left/right), as explained earlier. It would be wrong to simulate something that it shouldn't be doing.
You see, the FFB signal is acting in exchange for the rack in the steering housing of a real car. The FFB motor actually acts as the pinion at the end of the steering shaft (to which your steering wheel is bolted) and is instructed to turn clockwise or anti-clockwise to move the steering wheel left or right.
The position sensor in your FFB wheel is sending back a signal to the physics engine that the pinion movement is or has been executed and the physics engine respositions the tyres in real time and recalculates things all over again.
Now if you add in unnecessary effects to the FFB signal, it also affects the car's phyics as it changes the steering angle of the car. In other words the car is being steered by the FFB, but the added effects would influence the angle of the tyres as well. This than causes the car to change direction, which upsets balance (even if very tiny) and so on.
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. I do realize people have different wishes though, but I am a purist in this regard. So I always stuck to a balanced Fx Fy Fz and Mz force feedback settings in the game. You can get what you want via FFB, but it requires a bit of tinkering.
A FFB tweaking manual should be in the works, but I am not sure if it's 100% complete yet.
That said, this is from the wiki put together by the community: http://en.pcars.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Physics#I_can.E2.80.99t_feel_the_kerbs.3F
"I can’t feel the kerbs?
The kerbs are physically modelled, so if the kerb is rather flat in real life you won't feel much in the FFB."
Sorry, I know you might have wanted just settings but I felt that I should be complete so others learn as well.
i stumbled accross your great post here, and hoped you might help me with a question that puzzles me since a long time:
Does pCars' FFB system "weights" the Mz force as a part of the Fxyzm matrix in terms of being also one of those tireforces happening at the tire contact patch (i.e., e.g. acc. to Pacejka...), OR does Mz represent the torque at the (imaginary) steering axis, that is very depending on caster and KPI?
I'm aware that the scrub radius as a result of caster and kingpin inclination has an impact to the tireforce Mz at tire contact patch as well, but as far as i know the absolute Mz force (at tire patch) is much less strong than Mz torque forces resulting from force translations where mainly Fy and Fx translate into a torque caused by the geometry force effects due to the scrub radius.
In other words: When i dial in Mz settings in the in-car FFB matrix, does the FFB system computates and weights the "weak" Mz forces of contact tire patch, or the "strong" Mz forces that happen at the steering axis, eventually transformed trough rod, rack and pinion to the final torque a the steering wheel rack?
Very much looking forward to an answer, since this could explain some pCars FFB characteristics that i still can't fully "rationalize".
the question is in so far interesting too, because i always wondered on which basis the devs decided if Fz shall 'counteract' (pull into corner) or the other way round. my only guessing was so far, that they made it depending on positive or negative scrub radius, but my assumption doesn't correlate with what i feel when isolate Mz (by setting all other in car tire forces to zero).
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?> <!-- Default force feedback tweakers. --> <config> <value TopologyVersion="4" /> <value SpindleMasterScale="0.26" /> <value SpindleArm="5.0" /> <value SpindleFxScale="1.0" /> <value SpindleFxLoPass="0.0" /> <value SpindleFyScale="1.0" /> <value SpindleFyLoPass="0.0" /> <value SpindleFzScale="-1.0" /> <value SpindleFzLoPass="0.0" /> <value SpindleMzScale="1.0" /> <value SpindleMzLoPass="0.0" /> <value SoPScale="0.0" /> <value SoPLateral="0.0" /> <value SoPDifferential="0.0" /> <value SoPLoPass="0.0" /> <value RelativeGain="0.0" /> <value RelativeBleed="0.0" /> <value RelativeClamp="0.0" /> <value ArmScale="0.0" /> <value ArmMass="0.0" /> <value ArmStiffness="0.0" /> <value ArmDamping="0.0" /> <value GutScale="0.0" /> <value GutLongScale="0.0" /> <value GutMass="0.0" /> <value GutStiffness="0.0" /> <value GutDamping="0.0" /> <value ScoopKnee="0.0" /> <value ScoopReduction="0.0" /> <value TightenCenterRange="0.0" /> <value TightenCenterFalloff="0.0" /> <value SoftClip="0.0" /> <value BaseDrag="0.0" /> <value BaseDragSqr="0.0" /> <value BaseDragLoPass="0.0" /> <value DisableDynamicSpring="true" /> <value DisableLockSpring="false" /> <value DisableScrub="true" /> <value DisableThrottleVibe="true" /> <value DisableJolt="true" /> <value DisableWheelSpin="true" /> <value DisableGearChange="true" /> <value DisableRumbleStrip="true" /> </config>
wow. first of all - thank you!
lots of food for thought.
gimme a bit time to zip on a coffee or two... ;-)
i did some tests too, but i don't want to draw conclusions without a proper second thought...
however, the 'inverse' Fz is definitely an issue. it could have made sense with cars that have a negative scrub radius, but even than, the effect (at default) would have been simply too strong. though, what could have been at least a little bit of a logical thing prooves irrelevant when you do tests by just using a vehicle that you know for sure that its scrub radius is positive: a kart!
testing it with a kart, the Fz force still counteracts, therefore pulls into the corner. ... which is definetly - by practical experience and theory - wrong. a weightshift (and that's best we can assume sms had in mind what Fz is supossed to do, besides curbs stuff...) to the left so the outer front tire of a kart while cornering to the right e.g. will cause (due to the positive scrub radius) a counter-clockwise torque at the steering wheel. cause the outer tire creates a stronger cornering force than the inner front tire due to the weight shift, therfore the positive scrub radius comes into effect... instead, pCars FFB turns the steering wheel clockwise (into the corner).
briefly: no matter if positive or negative scrub radius: Fz (due to weightshifts while cornering) leads either way to an 'inverse' steering wheel torgue... that doesn't make sense.
NB: first time now with the Radbul DLC car they "put" the direction of wheel-torque right... because the mazda radbul definitely has a positive scrub radius - as most other race cars as well anyway, ln so far the "direction" of FFB torque seems to be wrong for all the cars (besides the new Radbul).
if Fz really has this very fuzzy logic, the entire FFB system seems to become questionable. well, i better put that thought aside... :-)
about my Mz question: i did a simple test: i set the caster of the formula rookie first to minimum value, than to maximum value, while just setting Mz to 100 and Fcxz to zero. Mz didn't change, which seems to me the proof that the FFB system actually used the Mz forces of the tire contact patch. therefore Mz (which you weight of how much it is fed to the FFB system) is NOT the 'derived' torque caused by the goemetry of the steering rack.
NB: i did a counter-check test to make sure that changing the caster actually will be taken into computation by the FFB system: i set all forces to zero, but set Fy too 100 (or 200)... as expected, with higher caster values the FFB got stronger. that us correct (and gived us back a bit trust in sms' devs physic department ;-)
i'll come back to the spindle arm topic at a later time... the more i fiddling around with it the more i believe it doesnt work properly, beside the fact that i think the setting doesn't belong into the FFB section, but the tuning section, because by changing the angle, you definetly change the steering geometry mechanically,.. that is different than just weighting input forces...
however, i got the feeling, our both findings might complement each other in a nice way and can help to finally close some gaps of knowledge about the FFB - which still seem to exist, to my surprise.
Desired Fz Phase of cars: Kart 125cc = Positive Kart 250cc = Positive Alpine A450 = Negative Ariel Atom 300 SC = Negative Ariel Atom 500 V8 = Negative Ariel Atom Mugen = Negative Aston Martin DBR1-2 = Negative Aston Martin DBR1/300 = Positive Aston Martin Rapid S = Negative Aston Martin V12 Vantage GT3E = Negative Aston Martin V8 Vantage GT4 = Negative Aston Martin V8 Vantage GTE = Negative Audi 90 Quatro IMSA GTA = Negative Audi A1 Quatro = Negative Audi R18 TDI = Negative Audi R18 e-tron Quatro = Negative Audi R8 (LMP900) = Negative Audi R8 LMS Ultra = Negative Audi R8 V10 Plus = Negative BAC Mono = Negative BMW 1-series M Coupe = Negative BMW 1-series M Coupe Stanceworks = Negative BMW 2002 Stanceworks Edition = Negative BMW 2002 Turbo = Negative BMW 320 TC = Negative BMW 320 Turbo Group 5 = Negative BMW M1 Procar = Negative BMW M3 E30 Group A = Negative BMW M3 GT = Negative BMW M3 GT4 = Negative BMW V12 LMR = Negative BMW Z3 GT3 = Negative Bentley Continental GT3 = Negative Bentley Speed 8 = Negative Caper Monteray Stockcar = Negative Caterham SP/300.R = Negative Caterham Seven Classic = Negative Caterham Superlight R500 = Negative Ford Escort Mk1 RS1600 = Negative Ford Falcon FG V8 Supercar = Negative Ford Focus RS = Negative Ford GT MkIV = Negative Ford Mustang 2+2 Fastback = Positive Ford Mustang BOSS 302R1 = Negative Ford Mustang Cobra TransAm = Negative Ford Mustang GT = Negative Ford Sierra RS Cosworth Group A = Negative Ford Zakspeed Capri Group 5 = Negative Formula A = Negative Formula B = Negative Formula C = Negative Formula Gulf 1000 = Negative Formula Renault 3.5 = Negative Formula Rookie = Negative Gumpert Apollo S = Negative Ginetta G40 Junior = Negative Ginetta G55 GT3 = Negative Ginetta G55 GT4 = Negative KTM X-Bow R = Negative Lotus Type 25 Climax = Negative Lotus Type 38 Ford = Negative Lotus Type 40 Ford = Negative Lotus Type 49 Cosworth = Negative Lotus Type 49C Cosworth = Negative Lotus Type 51 = Negative Lotus Type 72D Cosworth = Negative Lotus Type 78 Cosworth = Negative Lotus Type 98T Renault Turbo = Negative Marek RP 219D LMP2 = Negative Marek RP 339H LMP1 = Negative Mazda MX-5 Radbul = Positive McLaren 12C = Negative McLaren 12C GT3 = Negative McLaren F1 = Negative McLaren F1 GTR Long Tail = Negative McLaren P1 = Negative Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.5-V16 Evolution2 DTM = Negative Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.8 AMG = Negative Mercedes-Benz 300SL (W194) = Positive Mercedes-Benz A45 AMG = Negative Mercedes-Benz AMG C-Coupe DTM = Negative Mercedes-Benz CLK-LM = Negative Mercedes-Benz SLS = Negative Mercedes-Benz SLS GT3 = Negative Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX FQ360 = Negative Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI TMI = Negative Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X FQ400 = Negative Oreca 03 Nissan = Negative Pagani Huayra = Negative Pagani Zonda Cinque Roadster = Negative Pagani Zonda R = Negative Palmer Jaguar JP-LM = Negative RWD P20 LMP2 = Negative RWD P30 LMP1 = Negative Radical SRC Turbo = Negative Radical SR3-RS = Negative Radical SR8-RX = Negative Renault Alpine A442B = Negative Renault Clio Cup = Negative Renault Megane R.S. 265 = Negative Renault Megane R.S. 275 Trophy R = Negative Renault Megane Trophy V6 = Negative Renault Sport R.S. 01 = Negative RUF CTR = Negative RUF CTR3 = Negative RUF CTR3 SMS-R = Negative RUF RGT-8 = Negative RUF RGT-8 GT3 = Negative RUF Rt 12 R = Negative Sauber C9 Mercedes-Benz = Negative Scion FR-S = Positive Scion FR-S Rocket Bunny Edition = Negative Toyota 86 = Positive Toyota GT86 = Positive Toyota GT86 Rocket Bunny GT Edition = Positive Toyota TS040 Hybrid = Negative W Motors Lykan HyperSport = Negative