FIA considering closed cockpit F1 in the future?

[G.T.Ace]

Why they can't just go back to perfectly functional wind shields like that rather than mess about with stupid ideas that do not do anything other than add further problems for the driver I don't know.

Because a windshield still hasn't the needed, or wanted, protection. Henry Surtees got killed from a tire hitting him in an angle, where a windshield would do nothing for example.

 

[Furinkazen]

Point is a raised area or lowered driving position would put less of the drivers head exposed and leave them less likely to injury.

And I remember Surtees crash - I was watching it live on TV... :shudder:

 

[Ardius]

Good idea. Even something like this from the 1994 Penske PC23 would be a great improvement.

Would this have prevented Massa's accident?

No as the spring hit Massa just at the top-left side of his helmet which is still above the windshield in that picture.

 

[nitrorocks]

Point is a raised area or lowered driving position would put less of the drivers head exposed and leave them less likely to injury.

And I remember Surtees crash - I was watching it live on TV... :shudder:

That was nasty.

 

[Prince.M5]

Point is a raised area or lowered driving position would put less of the drivers head exposed and leave them less likely to injury.

But then the drivers will find it difficult to drive as they couldn't really see what's in front clearly.

Other than closed cockpit, I think there are many more ideas out there yet to be discovered.

 

[IceMan PJN]

The drivers know the risks.

They knew the risks ten years ago, twenty years ago, thirty, forty, and fifty years ago, but that didn't mean there wasn't room for safety improvement and didn't mean we had no business improving safety. Knowing the risks doesn't dismiss them.

Honestly, revise the helmets (which was done promptly after massa) would be the best thing to do.

Helmets only help with minor impacts. It doesn't do much if something large hits it, like a wheel, it does nothing against striking a fence at race speeds, and doesn't prevent a driver's head from being knocked off by a fire extinguisher. A couple years back there were wrecks wherein one car glided across the top of another, as in Monaco, and at that time I figured it was just a matter of time before the angles would be right for a decapitation, and all the helmets in the world can't prevent a car across your cockpit from knocking your block off.

I've got a possible solution, kinda half a canopy.

Look at the modern Ferrari F1 car, and indeed nearly all the grid with the ugly front of the cars.. there's already a bump on the car due to the tech regs, so why not mandate the nose being pushed back, and increase that bump's so you end up with kinda a upwards canopy or shield,

The regulations didn't mandate the bump. While it is a result of a regulation change for 2012, the regulations don't actually require that specific configuration. This post made it sound like it was actually required to comply with the 2012 regulation changes, but I just want to make clear that it wasn't.

 

[Furinkazen]

They knew the risks ten years ago, twenty years ago, thirty, forty, and fifty years ago, but that didn't mean there wasn't room for safety improvement and didn't mean we had no business improving safety. Knowing the risks doesn't dismiss them.



Helmets only help with minor impacts. It doesn't do much if something large hits it, like a wheel, it does nothing against striking a fence at race speeds, and doesn't prevent a driver's head from being knocked off by a fire extinguisher. A couple years back there were wrecks wherein one car glided across the top of another, as in Monaco, and at that time I figured it was just a matter of time before the angles would be right for a decapitation, and all the helmets in the world can't prevent a car across your cockpit from knocking your block off.

The regulations didn't mandate the bump. While it is a result of a regulation change for 2012, the regulations don't actually require that specific configuration. This post made it sound like it was actually required to comply with the 2012 regulation changes, but I just want to make clear that it wasn't.

I know I'm just saying as they can put mechanical parts lower, making the bump taller is perfectly logical.

 

[Earth]

edit: already topic about it

 

[Ardius]

^What does that have to do with this thread? The accident wouldn't have been helped much by a closed cockpit. I'm pretty sure the FIA aren't planning on making the cars resistant to the force of a truck ramp...

 

[hawkeye122]

I reckon a Lexan windscreen, which covered the drivers frontal section, but still open at the top is the most logical idea. Perhaps reinforced?

Like the Penske car above, only taller.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Normally I'd let this slide, but out of respect to the dead, his name was Henry Surtees. As for the closed cockpit design, I hope it doesn't happen in F1. Autosport made some compelling arguements against it when it was first suggested and I fully agreed with them at the time.

Yes, what if the eject canopy mechanism does not work and the driver is unconscious; more difficult for safety marshalls to extract driver, or put out cockpit flames.

I am for increased safety, but prefer the current (nostalgic perhaps) aesthetic of open cockpit; and a preferred view when playing F1 2011 and GT5

 

[Earth]

^What does that have to do with this thread? The accident wouldn't have been helped much by a closed cockpit. I'm pretty sure the FIA aren't planning on making the cars resistant to the force of a truck ramp...

How can you sound so sure?

 

[Tornado]

How can you sound so sure?

Because a lexan bubble or whatever you think should have been there isn't going to do anything when your car launches itself underneath the back of a truck.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Maria de Villota's accident is hardly the basis for an argument to introduce closed canopies. Suggesting that the sport should adopt them in the way of said crash is little more than a knee-jerk reaction. It is obvious that this was a freak accident, and appears to have been a result of a mechanical fault, or the driver's inexperience with the anti-stall system.

The the FIA decided to act on this, what would be the best solution: rewriting the rules to include canopies over the cockpit, or sending out a memo advising the teams to part the transporter somewhere else next time?

 

[PAPPACLART]

Interesting stuff. F1 cars will start to look like the GT5 X-wing before long!

 

[Hun200kmh]

Maria de Villota's accident is hardly the basis for an argument to introduce closed canopies.
I don't agree, all accidents where helmets are hit are basis for argument over closed cockpits. This is just one more to add to the list.

Suggesting that the sport should adopt them in the way of said crash is little more than a knee-jerk reaction.
Same could be said of the previous accidents, namely Massa's and Surtees' ... again, this one adds up

It is obvious that this was a freak accident, and appears to have been a result of a mechanical fault, or the driver's inexperience with the anti-stall system.
Surtees was a freak accident and Massa was a freak accident too. Only Dan Wheldon's accident can be considered as a "waiting to happen situation", and even this is debatable

The the FIA decided to act on this, what would be the best solution: rewriting the rules to include canopies over the cockpit, or sending out a memo advising the teams to partk the transporter somewhere else next time?
The transporter, the marquee, the personnel, all and everything a car can hit.

My point is, I'm not sure closed cockpits are the way to go, but Maria's freak accident is not irrelevant in this debate. And, unlike Toronado, I do think a closed cockpit might have saved the driver today, or at least would have greatly reduced the injuries sustained.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The transporter, the marquee, the personnel, all and everything a car can hit.

And how, exactly, is a closed canopy over a Formula 1 car going to help the personnel if they get hit?

The teams will have seen this incident. They will take note of what happened and why. They will make the appropriate changes to prevent it from ever happening again. And they can do it cheaper, easier and sooner than installing closed canopies on the cars.

 

[Hun200kmh]

And how, exactly, is a closed canopy over a Formula 1 car going to help the personnel if they get hit?

The teams will have seen this incident. They will take note of what happened and why. They will make the appropriate changes to prevent it from ever happening again. And they can do it cheaper, easier and sooner than installing closed canopies on the cars.

You misread me. It's not that I don't care about the personnel when they get hit by a closed car. It's that I care also about the driver when he hits ........ with his open cockpit car.


........(insert anything, including a guy holding a screwdriver in his hand, an ipad or even a fire extinguisher)

 

[prisonermonkeys]

We've seen plenty of accidents where drivers have walked away unscathed.

In all honesty, you should care more about what happens when a driver is trapped in the car and the canopy is jammed shut. Sure, that would be a freak occurance, but as you are so quick to point out, the Massa, Surtees and de Villota accidents were all freak incidents. Not only that, but canopies limit and distort a driver's view.

Closed canopies cause more problems than they solve.

 

[TheBook]

What about something like this, though?



It's not entirely enclosed, but still could block flying objects if need be.

 

[Hun200kmh]

What about something like this, though?

It's not entirely enclosed, but still could block flying objects if need be.

If you watch the video I placed in the first post of this thread, you'll notice the FIA tested that solution too. Less effective than a fully closed canopy, but not totally irrelevant (in Massa's case, doubt it would make a difference in Surtees's or Villota's)

 

[prisonermonkeys]

What about something like this, though?

It's not entirely enclosed, but still could block flying objects if need be.

The curved shape will still distort a driver's vision, though. It might be okay for drag racing, but that's because drag racing takes place in a straight line. I would not want to try and get through Eau Rouge or Maggotts-Becketts-Chapel with a fish-eyed view of the circuit.

 

[TheBook]

Lots of closed-top sportscars have wraparound-style windscreens, though; for example:

Honest question, not rhetorical: What's the difference? Wouldn't the shape distort the driver's vision in this case, too? Or does the fact that the driver sits off to the side and back away from it have something to do with it?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It has to do with the shape and the materials made. The elongated cockpit design of a Formula 1 car is unsuited to windshields. But hey, sports car do it, so it must be a good idea, right? While we're at it, why not put bodywork over the wheels to stop them from coming loose, and allow shark fins again to stop the cars from rolling over.

People claim that this need for closed canopies is not a knee-jerk reaction to accidents involving a driver's head. But go back through this thread and pay particular attention to the time stamps on each post. The thread runs its natural course, and then dies. And then a few weeks later, it suddenly comes alive again. And when the thread comes alive, it coincides with an accident.

Yeah, it's not a knee-jerk reaction at all.

 

[TheBook]

I didn't think about the cockpit shape, that makes sense. Thanks for that. 👍

 

[BlacqueJacques]

prisonermonkeys : "While we're at it, why not put bodywork over the wheels to stop them from coming loose, and allow shark fins again to stop the cars from rolling over."

Exactly, I do not want the F1 cars to begin to look like the 'Indy Cars' of the IZOD series 👎

 

[Famine]

I spoke with Adrian Newey about this last month* and he really doesn't see it as a genuine possibility. Amongst the many reasons - visibility, evacuation - was the filter-down cost - the canopies are projected to cost of the order of £50k each, which is "fine" for F1, but ludicrous for Formula Renault.


*No. I wish I were kidding. I still have no idea what possessed me.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Collision with support vehicle (truck)?

Marussia's test driver had an accident _

Test driver De Villota loses right eye after crash


04/07/2012 11:37:00 AM

LONDON - Formula One test driver Maria de Villota has lost her right eye after a crash in testing for the Marussia team.

Marussia says on Wednesday that the 32-year-old Spaniard is in a critical but stable condition in a hospital after the accident at an English airfield on Tuesday morning.

 

[mattythedog]

Collision with support vehicle (truck)?

That was a freak accident, which is unlikely to ever happen again.

 

[Hun200kmh]

*No. I wish I were kidding. I still have no idea what possessed me.

Carpe Diem 👍