FIA considering closed cockpit F1 in the future?

[DQuaN]

Thanks.

 

[ukfan758]

Just saw the video of bianchis crash, that was terrifying, thankfully no one else was injured.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

Just saw the video of bianchis crash, that was terrifying, thankfully no one else was injured.

It's incredibly lucky nobody was behind or beside the crane when Jules impacted it.

 

[Starciller]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/08/jules-bianchi-crash-enclosed-f1-cockpits-williams

Hopefully it doesn't come to fully enclosed cockpits. I'm all for driver safety and the lives it saves, but, there has to be another way.

Raising the sides of the cockpit to further enclose the driver and potentially a small windshield designed to deflect debris would be as far as I would push it.

As previously said however, the procedures and the equipment used to recover crashed vehicles should be adjusted before the cars. Make the drivers slow down considerably when entering an area with double yellows. This could be done using a modified version of code 60. If a driver is caught going too fast, it's either a DQ, or a severe time and points penalty. This would help protect the safety workers and the driver from the already crashed car.

The equipment used, such as the tractors, could come with a row of tires and act as a mobile tire wall to prevent a serious accident if something were to cause a car to head off in the tractors direction.

These changes would be all that I would recommend to the FIA, but in the end, it's up to them and what they feel is best for the sport.

 

[guywithanAE86]

Man, just saw Biachi wipe out. That could have been a lot uglier, I'd like to say he's lucky, but that sounds kinda redundant.

Honestly, I don't get what the big deal is with closing canopies. F1's still a dangerous sport, anything hitting 200 mph can just be a recipe for disaster. I don't see a canopy adding much weight, and it might only further streamline a car, making it smoother and more aerodynamic. Like an army of X2014's or something on the podium sounds kinda cool to me.

I figured F1 would have GEEWUNNERS, but times change unfortunately, and the cars are getting faster. So we need to get smarter to match them.

 

[Peasantslayer]

As has been said the problem with a canopy is it could shatter or prevent the driver from escaping the car in a fire but most of all it is expensive and would have to filter down to all the other single seater categories, you may have made F1 cars slightly safer but there are still several other series' which feed up to F1 which would have no canopies because they wouldn't be able to afford them.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

As has been said the problem with a canopy is it could shatter or prevent the driver from escaping the car in a fire but most of all it is expensive and would have to filter down to all the other single seater categories, you may have made F1 cars slightly safer but there are still several other series' which feed up to F1 which would have no canopies because they wouldn't be able to afford them.

If you read the article in the OP you'll discover that the FIA was considering subsidizing each team $50,000 to allow them to afford canopies. It would only be a few million for the FIA to cover (pun somewhat intended) all formulae, which is the same amount they pay to Hermann Tilke to make horrible, abysmal tracks anyway.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/08/jules-bianchi-crash-enclosed-f1-cockpits-williams

Hopefully it doesn't come to fully enclosed cockpits. I'm all for driver safety and the lives it saves, but, there has to be another way.

Raising the sides of the cockpit to further enclose the driver and potentially a small windshield designed to deflect debris would be as far as I would push it.

As previously said however, the procedures and the equipment used to recover crashed vehicles should be adjusted before the cars. Make the drivers slow down considerably when entering an area with double yellows. This could be done using a modified version of code 60. If a driver is caught going too fast, it's either a DQ, or a severe time and points penalty. This would help protect the safety workers and the driver from the already crashed car.

The equipment used, such as the tractors, could come with a row of tires and act as a mobile tire wall to prevent a serious accident if something were to cause a car to head off in the tractors direction.

These changes would be all that I would recommend to the FIA, but in the end, it's up to them and what they feel is best for the sport.

All the Code 60 adjustments in the world wouldn't help if a driver sees the marshal post immediately before the accident showing the green flag.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Keith Collantine from F1 Fanatic looked into that last point. It's a green flag from the point where the green flag is shown, not the point where it is visible. He even posted a map showing the marshalling points. From the sounds of things, that marshal post was very close to the accident, but actually behind it, but the camera angles make it appear to be ahead of the crash site because of the hill.

 

[mustafur]

I got to admit though, whilst I think its an over reaction going towards the Canopy route, i would love the engineering Challenge it would bring for optimum aero flow and would change how the cars are designed right now massively.

 

[Northstar]

It would only be a few million for the FIA to cover (pun somewhat intended) all formulae,

I'm guessing it would be far more than that as it's much more complex than slapping a canopy on the existing chassis.

 

[spacecowboy73]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/08/jules-bianchi-crash-enclosed-f1-cockpits-williams

So Rob Smedley says closed cockpits are easy to implement, his boss Claire Williams says they aren't.

I figured F1 would have GEEWUNNERS, but times change unfortunately, and the cars are getting faster. So we need to get smarter to match them.

The cars are not getting faster, they are significantly slower. Compare the current cars to the ones ten years ago.

All the Code 60 adjustments in the world wouldn't help if a driver sees the marshal post immediately before the accident showing the green flag.

It has been shown that this didn't happen. Every site I go to people still bring this up. I give up.

Some genius on some motorsport website was asking why were they even racing in the rain, you know since NASCAR doesn't do that.

Keith Collantine from F1 Fanatic looked into that last point. It's a green flag from the point where the green flag is shown, not the point where it is visible. He even posted a map showing the marshalling points. From the sounds of things, that marshal post was very close to the accident, but actually behind it, but the camera angles make it appear to be ahead of the crash site because of the hill.

This is a good point, and also cameras when zooming in compress distance which I think has added to the confusion.

 

[GTPorsche]

While it's not F1, Indycar is looking into at least a partial canopy for their 2018 new car. While that doesn't fix any current issues, it will provide further protection for the series when the time comes, especially if they'll be hitting 240mph again on ovals.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/racing/racing-news/indycar-series-investigating-cockpit-canopies

 

[Dotini]

While it's not F1, Indycar is looking into at least a partial canopy for their 2018 new car. While that doesn't fix any current issues, it will provide further protection for the series when the time comes, especially if they'll be hitting 240mph again on ovals.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/racing/racing-news/indycar-series-investigating-cockpit-canopies

My neighbor, who attends the Indy 500 annually, has it that 240mph again is a serious goal on the part of the Speedway management.

 

[TenEightyOne]

My neighbor, who attends the Indy 500 annually, has it that 240mph again is a serious goal on the part of the Speedway management.

It's do-able, F1 could be doing it too... imagine them being allowed 750kg 1100bhp Turbo cars now? There wouldn't be a track in the world where you could race them.

I guess something similar is true of the ovals with the added physicality of longer, more sustained turning forces. I'm sure the advertisers will always talk the speed up while the regulators keep it down.

 

[GTPorsche]

It's do-able, F1 could be doing it too... imagine them being allowed 750kg 1100bhp Turbo cars now? There wouldn't be a track in the world where you could race them.

I guess something similar is true of the ovals with the added physicality of longer, more sustained turning forces. I'm sure the advertisers will always talk the speed up while the regulators keep it down.

Indycar pulls 6G+ in the turns at Indianapolis. Not sure if they've shown G-force meters on other ovals, but I'd imagine ovals like Las Vegas and Fontana would pull similar forces.

 

[spacecowboy73]

I guess something similar is true of the ovals with the added physicality of longer, more sustained turning forces. I'm sure the advertisers will always talk the speed up while the regulators keep it down.

Actually the regulators are the ones pushing the idea:

http://racer.com/index.php/indycar/345-latest-stories/101692-indycar-wants-indy-speed-record-beaten

And Derrick Walker wasn't against the idea:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...new-speed-records-at-inianapolis-500/7056499/

 

[Northstar]

Well obviously it has to be tested. Like a Corolla doesn't get tested before it goes to the market either...

They also stop the previous generation when they release the new one, they don't release a few new ones occasionally just to see how it works.

It's not like it has to be a requirement either. 2010 Audi still ran an open cockpit R15 while Peugeot had the 908. Now it is required after all these years.

I wouldn't have a problem with them phasing it in like they have with sportscars, in fact it would probably be the easiest way to implement it.

Why wouldn't the companies be allowed to test this?

There is nothing stopping them, in fact it would be nice if a company was working on it as there would be fewer kinks to work out by the time the FIA got serious about it.

I don't see money being an issue for top level teams for them to test. Some of these teams have more than enough resources to test these cars, than some do in the WEC.

Even the large teams have been complaining about the cost, the problem is that they are all to stubborn to actually make efforts to lower the cost. It's kind of like the cold was arms race, nobody wants to give anything up as they are worried about what the other side is doing.

Open-wheel can still be open wheel, but the day when a driver brings fourth he wants change, will it be too late as they may have been ridiculed for the exact reason as I am, along with many others?

There is a difference between being ridiculed and being asked questions that need to be asked. Everyone here wants the cars to be safe as possible, a part of that is looking into the pros and cons of various alternatives (not that any of our opinions mean anything).

 

[MustangManiac]

Actually the regulators are the ones pushing the idea:

http://racer.com/index.php/indycar/345-latest-stories/101692-indycar-wants-indy-speed-record-beaten

And Derrick Walker wasn't against the idea:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/motor/indycar/2014/03/29/roger-penske-chip-ganassi-against-new-speed-records-at-inianapolis-500/7056499/

Well, the regulators and DW aren't going to be the ones bouncing off the walls or flying into the fences when these things get sideways at those speeds so what do you expect?

 

[spacecowboy73]

Well, the regulators and DW aren't going to be the ones bouncing off the walls or flying into the fences when these things get sideways at those speeds so what do you expect?

That was in response to this post:

I'm sure the advertisers will always talk the speed up while the regulators keep it down.

Usually in recent times the objective has been for the governing bodies to contain speeds.

 

[GTPorsche]

They feel the cars are safe enough to reach those speeds they want, but with Wheldon's fatal crash, and Franchitti's career-ender in Houston last season and Aleshin at Fontana in practice just a month and a half back, I'm not sure the cars are safe enough to be reaching those speeds on ovals. I know Wheldon's crash was in the old chassis, but that was due to the series being blissfully ignorant thinking 33 cars at 215mph could work at Vegas in a massive pack.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Here's an interesting new article from Autosport, regarding closed cockpits. Those hoping to see fighter jet style cockpits on F1 cars anytime soon shouldn't get their hopes up with the test polycarbonate canopies being prone to shattering and aerospace canopies flexing too much. As we already know, the FIA have been testing a forward facing roll bar but so far it appears to be a little impractical, according to Charlie Whiting. I'd imagine the roll bar would then throw up debates about driver visibility too, if it were to ever be introduced and with F1 cars already being hard to see out of, I can't imagine them ever being implemented in the technical regulations.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Yeah, front roll bars would obscure the drivers' vision - and they're already restricted by HANS and the high sides of the cockpits.

 

[Peasantslayer]

Did anyone see this video on closed cockpits? I found it interesting that limited visibility in front of the driver isn't much of an issue.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Those are the ones Cap'n Jack just pointed out are unworkable.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It's not a great article, having sat in a modern F1 car I disagree that a centre roll structure pillar would be as minimal as pitots (which are actually very thin longtitudinally), and I don't think he answered any questions with anything more than his imagination.

 

[ClydeYellow]

In light of the recent death of Justin Wilson and Jules Bianchi due to head injuries while racing in open cockpit cars, I thought it'd be most opportune to open a thread in order to avoid discussing what will surely become a matter of controversy in the following weeks and months.

What do you think of open cockpit racecars? Do they need to go? Can they be saved somehow? Is there any need to? Discuss.

 

[Downhill Dino]

We've had this thread discussing the closed cockpit concept.

 

[ClydeYellow]

We've had this thread discussing the closed cockpit concept.

I know, but seeing as it was a thread discussing a specific closed cockpit concept which's been dead for almost one year, I thought it could've been useful to have this thread.

 

[Earth]

Why is it even a debate?

Justin Wilson, Dan Wheldon and others would still be alive now if they had a closed cockpit.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Why is it even a debate?

Justin Wilson, Dan Wheldon and others would still be alive now if they had a closed cockpit.

And how many others would be dead?

Every time there is an injury like this, everybody gets carried away with the idea of closed cockpits and doesn't consider the downside of the concept. What do you do if a canopy gets jammed shut when a driver needs urgent attention? What about the potential for the curvature of the canopy glass to distort a driver's perception of his or her surroundings when racing wheel to wheel? And what about accidents like Bianchi's where a canopy would have afforded no protection.

When Jauques Villeneuve crashed at Melbourne in 2003(-ish), a marshal was killed when he was stuck by a flying tyres - a 46cm wide tyre that went through a 47cm gap in the wall. These accidents are made up of immensely complex and precise variables like car speed and position, and changing just one by half a percentile point will result in a radically different outcome. There is no absolute solution to the problem like a closed canopy, and introducing it will only bring about a false sense of security.

Wilson's death was a tragic freak accident. As was Bianchi's and Henry Surtees'. But look at the spate of massive accidents that we saw this weekend - de Jong, Bosak and Parry, Mardenborough, Kimball - and the way the safety features did their jobs. You cannot predict the circumstances of accidents like Wilson's, much less prevent them be aise there will always be a new set of variables that ends with tragedy. The only sure-fire way is to ban motorsport entirely.