Finally, A Prius I Would Drive

[CAMAROBOY69]

It most certainly does. If I like something then it makes sense to buy it, right?

In my case I get $x worth of enjoyment out of buying an old Mustang and using it as an old pony car. I will also get $y worth of utility out using it as a car. Add them together and the car starts making financial sense.

Replace Mustang with Leaf, replace pony car with electric car.

Not to argue your point but do you honestly know a single person that bought an electric car because of the way it rides, the way it handles, or the way it looks? Most people buy electric cars for the sales pitch....."to save gas". "To go green". "To save money".

 

[Harry6784]

Just to add something to think about, I read a story about an owner who drove a nissan leaf to work. He had a 130 mile round trip and lived in the northwest. He would actually bundle up before getting in the car to avoid using the header since that would kill the range

 

[Zenith]

Not to argue your point but do you honestly know a single person that bought an electric car because of the way it rides, the way it handles, or the way it looks? Most people buy electric cars for the sales pitch....."to save gas". "To go green". "To save money".

I never said that they buy electric cars for the way they handle, look, what have you. They buy it for whatever reason makes them happy.

You bought your Camaro to turn into a Pro-Touring car. Other people buy old Camaro's to restore them to factory conditions. Pro Touring Camaro's ride, look, handle completely differently but people still buy them because the car makes them happy.

The torque of the electric motor and the quietness of the ride come to mind in addition to the green connotations. You don't think a quiet ride could make somebody happy?

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

The torque of the electric motor and the quietness of the ride come to mind in addition to the green connotations. You don't think a quiet ride could make somebody happy?

Great points.

 

[McLaren]

@McLaren There is irony hiding in your post. I'll probably get banned if I point out where, but it's there.

There isn't. Try again.

I can't believe people are still arguing the new vs used debate again. Why the hell do they even produce anything over $100,000 then.

 

[Wolfe]

Comparing the cost of a new car to a used car to point out how an electric car doesn't make financial sense is beyond absurd. Some people can afford to buy new and prefer to do so; for them an electric car is a viable option. Some people can't afford to buy new or don't mind buying a used car; financially, they're better off in a (good) used car. Some people can't afford to buy new but do so anyway; they're idiots.

The point is, wait another seven years until the first Nissan Leafs turn ten years old before comparing them to ten-year-old cars on Craigslist.

 

[Joel]

I'm not against other people having electric cars, but I'm not buying one because for point A to B transportation it doesn't make any financial sense. A Nissan Leaf is listed at $28,980. I can find a used beater on Craigslist for $5000 that gets at least 30MPG. Gas around here is about $3.00 a gallon. That means that I will have to drive the Nissan Leaf 239,800 miles just to break even. That's more than driving from here to the moon. That doesn't even include cost of electricity to charge the Leaf (I know its cheap but still).

EV's may be great to drive, but for cheap, basic transportation, like I said a million times, they are not practical at all.

Once again, you can not compare a $5000 beater to a brand new car. Nobody who is considering buying a new Nissan Leaf is going to buy a $5000 beater instead. A 5000 beater might make more sense for you (and a lot of people), but people don't look around for brand new $30,000 cars and then go "hey, why not just buy a 10 year old Civic?"

 

[Bram Turismo]

So you travel more than 60miles one is way to work.

This is how are EVs should be used.

Remove chargeing plug.
Drive like a sane person to work.
Drive home like a sane person.
Put car on charge

Don't they already work like that? I'm not really caught up so much in the EV world. I do know that I've started seeing those Tesla Model S cars popping around when I'm driving to work. They do look very pretty!

The problem in my country with EV's is that they are very expensive, and you actually pay more road-tax for them, which doesn't make much sense to me. There was an entire debate over how the Prius was very environmentally un-friendly to manufacture. I don't know if that has changed or if that's the case with other hybrids, but wouldn't making them cheaper be a logical starting point to make people at least interested in them?

I do know that in Holland and Norway you don't pay any road-tax for an electric vehicle. Same with LPG as a fuel for cars. It is a waste-product from petroleum, costs only half to a-third of petrol at the pump and yet the government makes you pay extra taxes for using LPG, even though the emissions from an LPG vehicle are far lower than both a petrol and diesel vehicle.

Same for diesel, really. How on earth are we still encouraging people to buy diesel when it's the most damaging fuel to the environment?

 

[Joey D]

Not to argue your point but do you honestly know a single person that bought an electric car because of the way it rides, the way it handles, or the way it looks? Most people buy electric cars for the sales pitch....."to save gas". "To go green". "To save money".

I think many of the Tesla Model S owners bought their cars because it rode well, looked excellent, and drove amazing. I only personally know one Model S owner, and he loves everything about his car, the rest of the owner experiences come from stories I've read on the net.

 

[Harry6784]

Once again, you can not compare a $5000 beater to a brand new car. Nobody who is considering buying a new Nissan Leaf is going to buy a $5000 beater instead. A 5000 beater might make more sense for you (and a lot of people), but people don't look around for brand new $30,000 cars and then go "hey, why not just buy a 10 year old Civic?"

Well then if we turn a blind eye to practicality per $$, how about we take a BRAND NEW 2014 Civic LX off the showroom floor listed for $18,190. Mileage is rated at 28 city/36 highway. Assuming a 50/50 commute, I'll use 32mpg. Again gas is $3.00. That means that I'll still have to drive the Leaf for 115,093 miles before I break even. Only a handful of Leaf's passed the 100,000 mile marker all with significant battery exhaustion. So unless you think a quiet ride is worth a $10,000 option, gasoline is still the way to go 👍

 

[Grayfox]

Don't they already work like that?

Some people don't like that "limited range" and they tend to compare it full charge to a full tank of petrol.

Remember when top gear tested the EVs by going to the beach.
They knew it would not go that far and they wanted to show that.

They traveled 140mi to get there knowing they couldn't make it

BRAND NEW 2014 Civic LX off the showroom floor listed for $18,190. Mileage is rated at 28 city/36 highway.

Is that a 1.8Liter or the 2.0?

 

[Zenith]

Well then if we turn a blind eye to practicality per $$, how about we take a BRAND NEW 2014 Civic LX off the showroom floor listed for $18,190. Mileage is rated at 28 city/36 highway. Assuming a 50/50 commute, I'll use 32mpg. Again gas is $3.00. That means that I'll still have to drive the Leaf for 115,093 miles before I break even. Only a handful of Leaf's passed the 100,000 mile marker all with significant battery exhaustion. So unless you think a quiet ride is worth a $10,000 option, gasoline is still the way to go 👍

Considering that the Civic is less well equipped, you need to add a couple thousand to make the options consistent.

Then you need to raise the $/gallon because the price of gas will continue to rise like it has been for half a century and is closer to $4 or above where many people, including myself live.

Then you need to add money to the upkeep of the significantly more complex and wear-prone internal combustion engine.

Then you need to realize that the Nissan Leaf is quieter than most $100,000 Luxury cars.

Then maybe you can go back in time and see how much more it would cost to buy a brand new Pontiac Trans Am against a standard economy car. Unless you think accelerating more quickly onto the highway is worth a $X option, a standard economy car is the way to go.

Or, or, OR You can accept that people don't buy Electric Cars to get the most utility per dollar in the same way nobody buys Trans Ams to get maximum utility per dollar.

 

[Joel]

There's also that after rebates you can get a base model Leaf for just over 19K in CA and around 21K in the rest of the US. Moving up to the comparably equipped middle model Leaf with GPS compared to the GPS equipped Civic, the price difference is around $100 after rebates. We can get into the debate about whether the rebates should exist, but the reality is they do and they influence buying decisions, and rebates with Nissan price cuts have made the Leaf quite competitively priced considering how well built they are.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

If a company manages to build an electric car than can outrun a used Camry, but costs less, I MIGHT be able to accept and respect it.

Show me a new car sold today that can outrun a used Camry. Comparing used to new is always about comparing apples to oranges in an attempt to give weight to your own opinions.

traitors

I never really got the Prius owner hate, as several friends of mine have owned them over the years and sped more than most. Idiots and slow drivers are hardly limited to the "save the enviroment" wannabes.

Quite. A friend has one and she loves it, but I'd hardly label her an environmentalist. She also likes to speed.

White & Nerdy has it right- the green movement goes directly against car culture, and we car enthusiasts shouldn't let environmentalism affect our cars.

Why not? Direct injection is a great example; it manages to increase a car's output while also improving mpg. The Mustang's 5.0L Coyote engine throws out a whole heap of power while still providing the sort of mileage nobody would've dreamed of a comparably-performing engine could've managed two decades ago.

That's making it sound like electric cars are better in everything over the conventional car. I disagree.

Not quite everything; the PS4's game library is tiny, it requires more power to run, and price has already been mentioned

 

[White & Nerdy]

There isn't. Try again.

I'm talking about the part where you level accusations of elitism.

 

[niky]

Yet somehow, you haven't been banned for saying it.

It's ironic because he calls someone elitist for calling people who buy electrics traitors because... he's a guy who loves and works around high-powered gas-guzzling gasoline cars who's actually open-minded enough to see that there may be consumers who would be well-served by hybrids and electrics?

-

I still don't see what the issue is. A Prius is a car. Yes, there are holier-than-thou people that buy Prii. And there are selfish, show-off-ish pricks who buy muscle cars and trucks. And then there are the rich who buy anything over $30k as a penis replacement.

By itself, a Prius/Leaf is just a car. An appliance. But no worse in this regard (and significantly better in many others) than many other four door cars on the road.

-

This is not to say they make the most economic sense. But if we go down that reductionist road ($5k beaters? Seriously? What happened to the $500 car? ), you only have three choices. Build your own electric car, bicycle everywhere, or sell your house and move closer to work.

 

[McLaren]

I'm talking about the part where you level accusations of elitism.

I'm not elitist toward any car, unlike yourself.

 

[White & Nerdy]

Aren't you one of those people who writes off cars for insufficient HP/L or interior quality?

 

[Azuremen]

I'm talking about the part where you level accusations of elitism.

Aren't you one of those people who writes off cars for insufficient HP/L or interior quality?

 

[sparkytooth]

How does the world look in black and white?

Cynical.

 

[McLaren]

McLaren- I'm talking about fully electric cars like the Leaf, not hybrids. Hybrids still require gasoline to run, and there are hypercar hybrids, which are good. But I would take the gas-guzzling Aventador over any of them.

It doesn't really matter because first off, the used vs. new argument is still beyond stupid in this discussion. Second, fully electric cars have only been on the market for about 3-4 years now, so it's near impossible to judge their long-lasting reliability to the average 10 year old Camry.

White & Nerdy has it right- the green movement goes directly against car culture, and we car enthusiasts shouldn't let environmentalism affect our cars.

Says the guy who just said he would pick an Aventador over any electric car, yet probably doesn't realize said Aventador's newest change for MY13+ is the introduction of stop-start technology & cylinder deactivation to - you guessed it - be environmentally friendly & save gas.

Aren't you one of those people who writes off cars for insufficient HP/L or interior quality?

No, I'm not. I'm pretty sure that's what you do when you bitch about 4 cylinders.

Unless the interior quality doesn't reflect in the overall price of the car, I don't comment on it because I already have my own requirements for what my interior has to have unless the trade off is serious performance; if both, perfect. That means that I likely won't ever be jumping into a new Toyota or what not because the car overall doesn't meet my wants. Doesn't mean I completely write it off though, because they're still good cars for the money, they just don't meet my wants.

 

[sparkytooth]

I thought this thread was about an LS swapped Prius

 

[Slash]

I thought this thread was about an LS swapped Prius

In a way, the conversation being discussed is still kind of relevant.

 

[JMoney]

Comparing used and new isn't absurd at all- when someone goes to buy a car, they aren't going to limit themselves to just new or just used cars, they are going to look for all cars within a price range.

Even if one has $25,000 to spend on a car, they aren't neccessarily going to spend all of their money. If they could choose between a '13 Leaf for $20,000 and an '03 Camry for $6,000, they cheaper, better-performing option would be the Camry. The only reason to buy the Leaf would be to be eco-friendly, which doesn't sound like something a car enthusiast would want to do. That's not to mention the fact that you can't take the Leaf on a road trip, and that person would have to have a second car or pay for plane tickets for traveling. With the Camry, they pay LESS for a car they CAN take on a road trip.

In 10 years I don't the the price of a Leaf or Volt will go as low as people predict; there aren't enough of them being sold new, and the demand for these cars will only go down. The used Camry will always be the better option.

 

[Azuremen]

Comparing used and new isn't absurd at all- when someone goes to buy a car, they aren't going to limit themselves to just new or just used cars, they are going to look for all cars within a price range.

Even if one has $25,000 to spend on a car, they aren't neccessarily going to spend all of their money. If they could choose between a '13 Leaf for $20,000 and an '03 Camry for $6,000, they cheaper, better-performing option would be the Camry. The only reason to buy the Leaf would be to be eco-friendly, which doesn't sound like something a car enthusiast would want to do. That's not to mention the fact that you can't take the Leaf on a road trip, and that person would have to have a second car or pay for plane tickets for traveling. With the Camry, they pay LESS for a car they CAN take on a road trip.

You clearly have no idea how people actually shop for cars or how cross shopping is typically done. People very rarely, if ever, cross shop brand new cars with 10 year old economy cars, even if they are similar on paper. Why? Because people like new stuff. They also like a warranty. And knowing there aren't stains from lord knows what on the seats. etc.

By your logic, the Geo Prism is probably one of the best cars ever because it is Corolla reliability with GM depreciation. Absolute best deal for a beater and most will run after the apocalypse.

 

[McLaren]

Comparing used and new isn't absurd at all- when someone goes to buy a car, they aren't going to limit themselves to just new or just used cars, they are going to look for all cars within a price range.

Wrong. Most of the time, people either look for new or used because of the things that come with both. It's very uncommon for someone to cross-shop both.

The only time I have clients who have considered our used cars at work is because they are actually just 1-2 year old cars with warranties & minimal miles.

Even if one has $25,000 to spend on a car, they aren't neccessarily going to spend all of their money. If they could choose between a '13 Leaf for $20,000 and an '03 Camry for $6,000, they cheaper, better-performing option would be the Camry.

Wrong again. Every $20,000 Leaf comes with a selectable list of options & a warranty in the same conditions. The 2003 Camry does not anymore.

The only reason to buy the Leaf would be to be eco-friendly, which doesn't sound like something a car enthusiast would want to do.

And what car enthusiast is looking at a 2003 Camry again?

That's not to mention the fact that you can't take the Leaf on a road trip, and that person would have to have a second car or pay for plane tickets for traveling. With the Camry, they pay LESS for a car they CAN take on a road trip.

And how often do people take road trips again? Once, maybe twice a year?

Hell of a stretch to prove a point, but unfortunately, not a strong argument.

In 10 years I don't the the price of a Leaf or Volt will go as low as people predict; there aren't enough of them being sold new, and the demand for these cars will only go down. The used Camry will always be the better option.

EV sales went up 300% from 2012 to 2013. They are expected to have a dominant chunk of the market by 2020 based on the last 4 years.

Do some research next time. Grade D for effort, should be an F.

 

[Slash]

And knowing there aren't stains from lord knows what on the seats. etc..

I officially have a dirty mind. I laughed way to hard at this

 

[Harry6784]

Is that a 1.8Liter or the 2.0?

1.8

Considering that the Civic is less well equipped, you need to add a couple thousand to make the options consistent.

Take a look at this. I tried, but I don't see leather and sat nav as $10,000 worth of options the Leaf has over the Civic.

Then you need to raise the $/gallon because the price of gas will continue to rise like it has been for half a century and is closer to $4 or above where many people, including myself live.

Take a look at your statistics again. Gas is actually cheaper today than it was in 1980, adjusting for inflation:

Then you need to add money to the upkeep of the significantly more complex and wear-prone internal combustion engine.

And to balance things out, the Leaf has a battery with a limited lifespan. Nissan has kept the cost of replacing the battery a closely guarded secret but you can expect it to go over $10,000 easily.

Then you need to realize that the Nissan Leaf is quieter than most $100,000 Luxury cars.

Which is nice, maybe there are people out there who buy cars just based on road noise.

Then maybe you can go back in time and see how much more it would cost to buy a brand new Pontiac Trans Am against a standard economy car. Unless you think accelerating more quickly onto the highway is worth a $X option, a standard economy car is the way to go.

Or, or, OR You can accept that people don't buy Electric Cars to get the most utility per dollar in the same way nobody buys Trans Ams to get maximum utility per dollar.

Funny how my car becomes relevant now

My car was listed for $34,000 in 1999. But I didn't buy my car in 1999, I bought it in 2013 for less than a third of the price. So no, I didn't see "accelerating more quickly onto the highway" was worth $20,000 extra. But for a $5,000 extra over the $5,000 civic, it was a screaming deal

 

[Zenith]

Once again we fail to accept that other people value some things differently. Why can't everyone just do what I do?

Also if you have trouble accepting that fossil fuel is going up in price, I feel bad for you.

 

[Harry6784]

Also if you have trouble accepting that fossil fuel is going up in price, I feel bad for you.

If you have trouble reading a graph, I feel bad for you. Just because something cost more $$, doesn't mean its more expensive.