Fix the Gran Turismo CLUTCH movement

  • Thread starter ApexVGear
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One simple solution is to be able to set a clutch button so that pad players could also use it.
I have tried playing manual with clutch on pad with forza 4 and it was working magnificently, the feeling of a perfectly timed up shift or a blipped throttle down shift is addictive and a lot of fun (why do I have an image of Jeremy Clarkson's smurky face right now...lol ^^)

If PD fix the clutch added with good engine and exhaust sounds and I would have that Jeremy smurky face :D
 
Funny on GT academy I can shift with no clutch, no clutch with the shifter, maybe they have a new style of transmission.
 
1gt6freak
Funny on GT academy I can shift with no clutch, no clutch with the shifter, maybe they have a new style of transmission.

With what car?

Probably the GTR transmission, if yes it is the same way on GT5
 
If you make your first shift in an event using the H-shifter with no clutch with a 900° wheel controller, the game senses that and goes to an "auto clutch" type mode. This has been possible since a few updates back.

It will appear in the GT5 Leader board entry for online TT events as
900° Racing Wheel gated gearbox.

In contrast, when you use the clutch, it appears as
900° Racing Wheel gated gearbox and clutch.

An example of an event that would only register gated gearbox even if the clutch was used was Time Trial 51, #3, Chevrolet Corvette C7 Test Prototype on the Nürburgring Nordschleife course over the 2012 Xmas holiday.

On the mygranturismo.net GT5 TT leader board filters, the difference is shown as 900° wheel G and 900° wheel Gc.
 
JogoAsobi
If you make your first shift in an event using the H-shifter with no clutch with a 900° wheel controller, the game senses that and goes to an "auto clutch" type mode. This has been possible since a few updates back.

Its been like that since GT5 Prologue. We've always had to trigger the clutch to use it.
 
I like total immersion (cockpit veiw w/shifter) and get really pissed when I miss a shift. I have reverted to paddle shifting sometimes just to get through a race. I've allways thought it was operator error not a glitch in the clutch. If this is fixable PD just get it done in GT6!
 
I like total immersion (cockpit veiw w/shifter) and get really pissed when I miss a shift. I have reverted to paddle shifting sometimes just to get through a race. I've allways thought it was operator error not a glitch in the clutch. If this is fixable PD just get it done in GT6!

It's defiantly fixable, there just either dumb or have never driven a real car. Lol
 
This is a demo, so you need to chill.

People would "chill" but it's an insult to call this a real life driving or racing simulator yet not simulate clutch functions correctly. As said already GT5P (5-6years) didn't do it and never updated it to be correct along with other issues wheel users had to deal with. The issue still hasn't been fixed, and thus it implies that it is there to say as far as system functionality goes. Thus perhaps their is an interface issue that PD have with the system and making wheel's work properly with their games on PS3.

I can understand you defending PD for things like Sound in the demo, but this is vastly different. Using the line (just wait and see) isn't going to help anyone this time around especially after GT5. It also makes you seem like a GT apologist or dogmatic in nature and not really knowing anything about the issue being discussed because it is easier just state something that doesn't prove your belief false currently.
 
I've not tried the gated shifter and clutch in GT. I prefer using the paddles when racing. I do have a gated shifter and have used it a bit in Forza but I disconnected it for GT due to the rolling starts being an issue.

I use a Fanatec Elite wheel with CSP pedals and the standard gated shifter that came with the TurboS. From what I have read it does seem like it would be tricky shifting in GT and if it is hard than in a real car then something should be done but I would not give it top priority as most people don't use a gated shifter anyway.

I think Forza needs to fix their clutch system as it lets you shift without lifting off the throttle and does so even when using a controller or paddle shifters adding an artificial and inaccurate speed boost and making it to where the poor guys who like to drive with auto trans or auto clutch can not keep up.
 
From my experience in Forza 4, if you go to "difficulty" and select...

Manual (no clutch), you can use the stick without the clutch, keep the throttle down, and get fast power shifts.

Manual with Clutch, you must use the clutch. If you simply move the stick without the clutch, you'll hear a grinding noise, the wheel will vibrate, there'll be a delay in the shift, and you damage the transmission and have to pay for repairs (damage does not apply in timed laps and some Rivals events).

If you don't lift off the throttle, and rather keep it "floored" as you shift without the clutch, you actually do more damage to the transmission.

If you don't lift off the throttle, use the clutch and shift, you'll hear the engine rev until you re-engage the clutch, and it "feels" like there is a little bit of a drop in performance.

If you shift correctly, lifting off the throttle, using the clutch pedal and shifting, you do get faster shifts--realistic, as it should be. For slower cars (street and sport) proficient manual and clutch users do have an advantage over controller users, and even wheel users with paddles or sequential sticks.

However, in the higher-class, faster and more powerful cars, there's not much of an advantage.
 
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ApexVGear
From my experience in Forza 4, if you go to "difficulty" and select...

Manual (no clutch), you can use the stick without the clutch, keep the throttle down, and get fast power shifts.

Manual with Clutch, you must use the clutch. If you simply move the stick without the clutch, you'll hear a grinding noise, the wheel will vibrate, there'll be a delay in the shift, and you damage the transmission and have to pay for repairs (damage does not apply in timed laps and some Rivals events).

If you shift correctly, using the clutch pedal, you do get faster shifts. For slower cars (street and sport) proficient manual and clutch users do have an advantage over controller users, and even wheel users with paddles or sequential sticks.

However, in the higher-class cars, there's not much of an advantage.

Yes, but see the reason PD doesn't make the clutch like that, is because there isn't any mechanical damage for the drive train. In result the clutch is the way it is. Proper technique in racing.
 
I can see where you are coming from, but they will never fix this issue trust me. To them it works fine and, they think most people have a DFGT (or older!) few have a G25/7 or T500 as it's clearly shown in their 'supported' wheel list in the options menu. Granted Fanatec wheels work fine, but GT5/6 think it's a G25/7 wheel. Maybe, maybe when the PS4 version hits they will address it, but I wouldn't hold my breath.


Jerome
 
I've not tried the gated shifter and clutch in GT. I prefer using the paddles when racing. I do have a gated shifter and have used it a bit in Forza but I disconnected it for GT due to the rolling starts being an issue.

I use a Fanatec Elite wheel with CSP pedals and the standard gated shifter that came with the TurboS. From what I have read it does seem like it would be tricky shifting in GT and if it is hard than in a real car then something should be done but I would not give it top priority as most people don't use a gated shifter anyway.

I think Forza needs to fix their clutch system as it lets you shift without lifting off the throttle and does so even when using a controller or paddle shifters adding an artificial and inaccurate speed boost and making it to where the poor guys who like to drive with auto trans or auto clutch can not keep up.

I think your missing the point most people don't use it because it doesn't work how it should lol.
 
Yes, but see the reason PD doesn't make the clutch like that, is because there isn't any mechanical damage for the drive train. In result the clutch is the way it is. Proper technique in racing.

There doesn't have to be a damage model. It would be a nice added feature, but it's not necessary.

At the very least, making a brief grind noise, a delay in the virtual drivetrain re-engaging... it's a matter of writing the code, whether it's simple or not. If A is this way, and B is that way, and user does D rather than C, then delay action E, play audio file F... and so on.

Again, perfect shift, or bad shift with a delay, if the stick is in a gear, Gran Turismo should never display "N."

"Proper technique in racing." There is nothing "proper" whatsoever about the way GT5 shifts. I drive REAL cars. I don't know what you drive. I suspect you can get more successful shifts in Euro Truck Simulator, and in that case, I would expect there to be a delay in the shifting. But if I'm driving a Lotus Exige, and the shifting felt like something from a large truck, or worse, would constantly go into neutral, I'd immediately turn around, park it, and never drive it again until it was fixed.
 
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There doesn't have to be a damage model. It would be a nice added feature, but it's not necessary.

At the very least, making a brief grind noise, a delay in the virtual drivetrain re-engaging... it's a matter of writing the code, whether it's simple or not. If A is this way, and B is that way, and user does D rather than C, then delay action E, play audio file F... and so on.

Again, perfect shift, or bad shift with a delay, if the stick is in a gear, Gran Turismo should never display "N"

I agree. Forza Horizon doesn't have mechanical damage either but it still simulates a clutch better than GT5.
 
At the very least, making a brief grind noise, a delay in the virtual drivetrain re-engaging...perfect shift, or bad shift with a delay, if the stick is in a gear, Gran Turismo should never display "N."


I second that. It would be so simple for them to fix it, & would enhance the simulation no end for those of us who own a wheel with a clutch. I only race with the paddles as a result of PD's laziness & indifference regarding this issue. And the only time I'll use the clutch is when driving around for fun.
 
I think your missing the point most people don't use it because it doesn't work how it should lol.
No, some people don't use it for this reason. Most people don't use it because most people do not have a clutch pedal and gated shifter to use.
 
No, some people don't use it for this reason. Most people don't use it because most people do not have a clutch pedal and gated shifter to use.

Lmao well obviously if you don't have it your not going to use it. But the people that do have it want to use it but choose not to because its not even close to the real thing.
 
from a recent eurogamer article:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-20-inside-the-house-of-cars


"...feedback will be improved for those wheels, Yamauchi said, but unfortunately it seems that clutch control won't. Yamauchi thinks that it's hard to replicate proper clutch control unless you have force feedback on that third pedal as well as on the shifter itself. "


:ouch: My confidence in this company... it's slipping.. into.. neutral.
 
"...feedback will be improved for those wheels, Yamauchi said, but unfortunately it seems that clutch control won't. Yamauchi thinks that it's hard to replicate proper clutch control unless you have force feedback on that third pedal as well as on the shifter itself. "

The same could be applied to acceleration, braking and steering. Admittedly, in a real car the force feedback doesn't always directly affect the control, but it's there.

When accelerating, you can feel wheels slipping through the wheel and your bum.
When braking you can feel ABS and/or locking through the pedal and your bum.
When steering you can feel loss of grip through the wheel and your bum.

It's harder to control all of these things without feedback, but it can be done. People learned to drive without FFB, before it became common.

I smell an excuse for not improving it. Clutch FFB technology will be the last thing available, and shifter FFB (in terms of grinding gears and popping the shifter out) will be the second last.

Translation: We'll never do it.
 
Former G27 user and soon to be T500RS+TH8RS user here. I can say that having to wait ages to shift into second when I am perfectly executing a shift is plain wrong. It also doesn't help when I want to shift up to third in a drift because with this game it's basically "Oh you wanted the next gear? Let us wait until your wheels have completely stopped slipping to let you select the next gear. Oh you were drifting? Sorry."

Having to re-gear my transmission for something stupid like this is unacceptable. If this isn't fixed in GT6, I'll most likely relinquish my T500 RS to only PC sims. It's fairly sad because you think polyphony would care about the people who buy the product that PD sponsored/licensed.

It's sort of a kick in the plums to Thrustmaster in my opinion (since G27 and G25 weren't officially sponsored/licensed).

Sure as heck didn't take iRacing very long to get people shifting a bit more properly... and if they implemented transmission damage over there (haven't checked lately) then...

I wish PD didn't have the "we have to reinvent the wheel on everything" attitude. The "we'll make it a little bit better generation by generation" attitude is way better IMO (Hello, Porsche!).

What people have suggested is fine: Model it accurately and have an option in online lobbies for clutch to be restricted to the way we have it now. Why does PD seem to think that less options is better?
 
You actually are not perfectly executing the shift when it goes wrong. ;) (quite understandable since you´re from automatic country)
But it really isn't reallistic. The fault margin for pushing the throttle when shifting is too small. When you only put you´re foot on the throttle a little bit, it won´t shift into the next gear.
 
You actually are not perfectly executing the shift when it goes wrong. ;) (quite understandable since you´re from automatic country)
But it really isn't reallistic. The fault margin for pushing the throttle when shifting is too small. When you only put you´re foot on the throttle a little bit, it won´t shift into the next gear.

Funny, given that I drive a stick and know when I'm perfectly executing a shift as it should happen in a real car.

EDIT: This is also why I have my country flag turned off, so I don't get people making serious/sarcastic remarks about my nationality.
 
I've been saying that without feedback from the gearstick, there's no way to know if it "went in" in game until you see or hear that things aren't going as you intended. That's a problem; most other games deal with that by adding weird hacks or not actually giving a crap in the first place (why does Race07 ignore my clutch inputs for gear shifts?). In a real car, you know you're not in gear because the gearstick is still in your hand, in some kind of neutral position because it was physically blocked (which you felt) from being where you wanted to put it - that doesn't happen with our peripherals.

The best we have is the "AI" approach that iRacing uses. Failed shifts are continuously re-tried until it actually works, so that the hardware gear-lever's position is kind of your statement of intent to be in that gear. The game then just waits for all the other conditions (some "simulated") to be met before things actually go that way. Although that's kinda odd, because you can drive down a straight with the game in one gear, and having selected the next gear, waiting for redline, you just pop the clutch and you get the next gear. But nobody drives like that in the game, do they? Winning's not that important. :dopey:

LFS is similar, in that missed gears are immediately retried if you just dip the clutch (or road and engine speed "match" through the gearbox) - neutral selection on the hardware is always immediately honoured in the game, though. Done this way, the long-throw clutch in GT5 would be far less of a problem because you wouldn't have to do that silly dance of deselecting and reselecting and timing the clutch and getting the travel you needed, all through the red mist, of course.

A clutch pedal whose travel mimics a real car's would give a force profile, in terms of the force required to sustain that travel, similar to a real car's. I suppose that's force feedback in a sense, so some pedal sets already have it.
 
The best we have is the "AI" approach that iRacing uses. Failed shifts are continuously re-tried until it actually works, so that the hardware gear-lever's position is kind of your statement of intent to be in that gear. The game then just waits for all the other conditions (some "simulated") to be met before things actually go that way. Although that's kinda odd, because you can drive down a straight with the game in one gear, and having selected the next gear, waiting for redline, you just pop the clutch and you get the next gear. But nobody drives like that in the game, do they? Winning's not that important. :dopey:

You can sort of do that with sequential boxes, at least on a motorbike (and I assume a car is the same). If you're going up the gears, you can just hold a bit of pressure on the gear lever, and the next time you back off the throttle or hit the limiter it'll slip into the higher gear.

But yes, in real life people tend to avoid hitting the rev limiter, and very few (if any) non-race cars have gearboxes capable of shifting like that.

Then again, in real life with synchromesh and such it's hard to screw up a shift in such a way that the shift actually doesn't happen. You may have to use more force to get the gear in, and you may make an awful noise doing so, but you'll probably get the gear eventually.

I do agree with you that iRacing probably has the least objectionable system, although limitations on the hardware available make it difficult.

It'd be cool if H-patterns didn't click into gear, but were instead held in gear by a little electromagnet. If the gear fails to engage in-game, the electromagnet turns off and the gear lever springs back to neutral. Maybe a little rumble motor attached to the bottom of the stick for the grinding feedback. That's about the cheapest and easiest way I can think of to get that feedback, physical obstruction of the gear slots could be quite tricky.
 
Forza series has a great model of clutch and it is perfectly "doable" to implement. What becomes a "problem" - and it was somewhat recognized and sanctioned by PD during Prologue times in GT series - is that clutch users can achieve faster shifts than semi and automatic users. So, that somehow "alienates" all those who are not using manual clutch.

However, it should not be an issue. It is like that in RL and mastering clutch is a true challenge for RL driver as well. Any advantage gained fron that should be considered welcomed IMO

GT series has another global issue regarding shifting, and that is the actual speed of shifting for cars that is often too fast and without clack-to-clack time-regulated handicap, especially for the older cars. I would love that PD acknowledges shifting behaviour in that instance. Same can be said for AT cars.

As for force feedback in shifters, as it has already been said, Fanatec CSS has it. If Polyphony would make use of such feature, it would give incentive to other peripherals-manufacturers to think about creating a shifter with such support.

It is up to PD to decide everything and IMO, they should bite one huge challenge and create their own SDK for wheels, pedals and shifters and call manufacturers to implement it on their hardware in order to produce maximally efficient support. Influence of GT series is huge enough to make it viable, only question is has PD have will and resources to cope with such project.
 
from a recent eurogamer article:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-20-inside-the-house-of-cars


"...feedback will be improved for those wheels, Yamauchi said, but unfortunately it seems that clutch control won't. Yamauchi thinks that it's hard to replicate proper clutch control unless you have force feedback on that third pedal as well as on the shifter itself. "


:ouch: My confidence in this company... it's slipping.. into.. neutral.

Somebody should tell Kazunori to check out LFS. That game/sim has that feature under the same conditions....since 2003.
Or the Forza series for that matter. He shouldn't make those statements knowing the direct competition has nailed that feature for years.

The other day I was playing GT5 and thought the clutch there works as an on/off button instead of an axis, like how a pedal should work (progressive points so lets say 255 buttons in it). Is that correct?
For coming to that conclusion I tried using clutch kick and in between, realizing the clutch (different from shifting) didn't work at all except at the very highest point and in which it had a fake progression that I didn't apply to the pedal.
That would explain why the engage point was never fixed, as it cannot be without an axis unless the engaging point is at the very beginning, like an on/off button is meant to work. Still, that's not tackling the issue directly and it won't work as well as having an axis with a proper "clutch model" (like LFS), but would end up in way less miss shifts, usable.
 
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