Fix the Gran Turismo CLUTCH movement

  • Thread starter ApexVGear
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Reddee
Thanks zack to be honest I'm sort of giving up on the clutch and just paddle shifting until they fix it. I feel I have wasted my money using the paddles though lol.

I don't understand how you can stand doing that. I don't even drive cars that you can't use the clutch
 
I don't understand how you can stand doing that. I don't even drive cars that you can't use the clutch

Because I'm sick of miss shifting half way through a tandem lol. I can down shift just fine it's the fast up shifts that get me 80% of the time.
 
Reddee
Because I'm sick of miss shifting half way through a tandem lol. I can down shift just fine it's the fast up shifts that get me 80% of the time.

Transmission tuning. That's the main problem I discovered going from DFGT to a G27
 
ApexVGear
Join the FTGTC movement and get Polyphony Digital to listen! Post your opinions on the current Gran Turismo clutch issues--and no, don't claim you have no problem with it because you've retrained yourself to work within the confines of this "video game." For me, an experienced (real life) driver that can make lightning-fast shifts, Gran Turismo IS NOT "The Real Driving Simulator" until this is "fixed."

Okay, I'm having a little fun with this, but this is a SERIOUS issue for me--at least for a "video game/simulator" anyway.

I WANT to enjoy the Gran Turismo series again, but because of this ONE MAJOR issue for me, I can't.

THE CLUTCH MODEL IS HORRIBLE and TOTALLY UNREALISTIC.

I tried out the GT Academy 2013/GT 6 Demo yesterday, and once I bought the 370z, I switched to a manual transmission and started using my clutch pedal and gated shifter...

JUST LIKE IN GT5, the clutch is still horrible.

After I "missed" several shifts before entering turns or coasted down every straightaway as I repeatedly worked the clutch pedal and stick (and touching nothing else), getting rrrrRRRRRRrrr and "N" again and again, I gave up (and cussed out PD a little... OK, A LOT).

I know there was an "update" to address this in GT5, but from what I can gather from G27, Fanatec, and even supported T500 owners, it still doesn't work realistically.

This isn't an attack on Gran Turismo--I just want this fixed so I can purchase Gran Turismo 6 and utterly enjoy it (even if it has other problems). If not, I'll have to go back to that other "franchise" on that other "system" because I love their "mostly realistic" clutch model.

BTW, I "completed" GT5, A and B spec, and have over 1,200 cars in my garage (and I struggled with the clutch, when I wanted to use it, all the way).

The NUMBER ONE goal that Polyphony Digital should aim for...
If your physical gated shifter is in a gear, Gran Turismo will be in a gear, NO MATTER WHAT, even if you "grind" or damage the transmission.

Please post your honest opinion and what type of wheel and shifter you use.

and PLEASE, stay on topic!

My current setup...

I agree with this totally PD really do need to up their game.
Clutch, tyre model and sound needs improvements.
I think they also need to get rid of the engine limiter which is nonsense or at least have the option in online lobbies to switch off the engine limiter.
 
Fanatec CSW+BMW rim, Clubsport pedals v1, H-Shifter (preordered the new to come Fanatec ClubSportShifter).

Because of the worst clutch ever, and I only like to drive with my Fanatec H-Shifter, I don't play GT5 anymore (for more than a year by now!!!) ; the clutch is to frustrating to drive with.

I had high hopes that GT6 would have a 'new clutch' but now I understand it is'nt changed; I will not buy GT6.
 
In Forza 4, using manual with clutch does offer an advantage--just like a manual does over an automatic in the real world.

Lol, wonder why in the real world every serious race car has a paddle shifter instead...

You are comparing different things. Paddle shifting should always be faster than shifting with the H grid, fully manual. But any fully automatic transmission will of course be slower.

If you want a clutch model that makes you go faster than paddle, you are asking for an unrealistic model.
 
Aside from the main issue here of gear changes.

I've not tried this again on GT6 to test, but there is a clutch issue in GT5 where in the clutch is an on/off switch, it doesn't have any slip. So if I was to put the car into first gear and then drive off as I would in my daily car by controlling the clutch, I could not do that in GT5.

If for example I was to do this in SimRaceway or Project Cars then they behave just like a real car as there is an analogue clutch system, rather than an on/off switch. I haven't tested for this particular thing in GT6 though, only tested high speed driving in the GT6 demo.


I'l get a chance to play again tonight, or one of you can let me know how the clutch behaves from a slow pull off, standing start.

GT5's clutch isnt an ON/OFF switch it has a distinct biting point that u can hold it on, For example in GT5 it is possible to pull away in 1st gear with full revs & not spin the wheel's. if the clutch were a simple ON/OFF switch this would not be possible. The biting point is small/sharp but so is the biting point of a new clutch in real life & since GT5 has no clutch fade/wear your always on a new clutch.
The problem is in the way the game doesnt let you change gear with revs on or still too high whilst using the clutch, The clutch does its job fine & isnt responsible for us ending up in N all the time.
 
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LERK84
GT5's clutch isnt an ON/OFF switch it has a distinct biting point that u can hold it on, For example in GT5 it is possible topull away in 1st gear with full revs & not spin the wheel's. if the clutch were a simple ON/OFF switch this would not be possible. The biting point is small/sharp but so is the biting point of a new clutch in real life & since GT5 has no clutch fade/wear your always on a new clutch.

Yep.

Also the clutch plates make a big difference on shifting. You don't always need a aftermarket clutch. Sometimes these parts will make miss shifts happen a lot more, so test out each clutch plate instead of just adding the twin plate clutch. Some people don't know this.
 
Lol, wonder why in the real world every serious race car has a paddle shifter instead...

You are comparing different things. Paddle shifting should always be faster than shifting with the H grid, fully manual. But any fully automatic transmission will of course be slower.

If you want a clutch model that makes you go faster than paddle, you are asking for an unrealistic model.

Actually, I didn't make my point very well (was running out of time yesterday). I edited the post to read...

----------------------------------
In Forza 4, because the clutch model is good, in "lower-class" races (such as the Clio Cup) drivers who know how to use a manual transmission do have an advantage over those using sequential (stick, paddle, and controller). While sequential stick or paddle shifting offers (mostly) an advantage for more powerful and lighter cars with better handling (most super cars and race cars up through P1 and Formulas), a skilled driver can use the clutch, time their shifting, and heel-toe to better control street, sport, and some super cars, and they have an advantage over drivers in the same cars with paddle shifting. Though paddle shifting does have it's advantages on the higher end, it actually hinders a good driver on the lower to mid-range cars. I would definitely enjoy paddle shifting in a higher-end Ferrari, but I prefer a manual and clutch in something like a Lotus Exige.
----------------------------------

In addition to that, and something I don't expect to see in a simulator any time soon, there are "hybrid" shifting systems on some racing cars. Of course most sequential race cars have some type of clutch for starting from a stop (hand clutches in Formula 1 for example), but these "hybrid" cars allow the driver to quickly upshift with a sequential stick or paddle without operating a clutch, but there is a clutch primarily used for down shifting. The driver can use the clutch, along with heel-toe when needed, to better control the car as they enter a turn. This gets past problems exhibited by a sequential-only car, such as differential lock that can contribute to getting off a driving line or losing control.
 
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The whole series is a terrible simulator in general, not just the clutch feature.

I'm hoping Gran Turismo 6 will have many of the features and improvements we've been waiting for, across the board. They need to make it more "enjoyable" with more to do so enthusiasts can really enjoy cars and motorsport, while still retaining the most important features--what it feels like to drive a car. I don't think it's ever been perfect, but overall, Gran Turismo has been a good series, and has offered a lot to us for many years.

...but, as I've said, I can't enjoy any of whatever improvements GT6 has to offer if the clutch isn't fixed.
 
I wish they would go back to the way GT5 Prolouge when it first came out, before one of the updates. It was almost impossible to miss a shift. I could even power shift without lifting off the throttle. I don't see an advantage to that, as paddle shifting and shifting with the control is just as fast, if not faster than shifting with the h-gate.

In the GT6 demo, the clutch can be slipped, much like in GT5, but not as much as we would like. However, I was testing it out in the 370z, and I was actually able to get clutch chatter that I could feel through my G25 wheel. I do wish they would fix the issue with missing shifts at high rpms though. Hopefully that is something they can fix by release of the full game.
 
Oh come on.

What your telling me is that you enjoy the silky smooth tracks with no life to them? You enjoy the Physics that reward power sliding through turns to produce the fastest lap times. The cars that sound not so good to put it nicely. The low quality standards ( honestly they don't bother me but i can understand the people that have the issue). I could go on with more but i won't. Don't get me wrong there isn't one game on a console that gets everythiong completely right, but GT isn't even close to being really good at anything. It's not the only "sim" out there anymore. Its time to step there game up in my opinion.
 
I definitely agree that there's numerous other things that need to be improved in Gran Turismo 6, and there's another thread in this forum on that subject. I would also agree that there's several things to improve in Forza as well.

However, please get back to the topic, and focus on the subject of this thread--

The terrible clutch in Gran Turismo.
 
JerseyDriverSS
What your telling me is that you enjoy the silky smooth tracks with no life to them? You enjoy the Physics that reward power sliding through turns to produce the fastest lap times. The cars that sound not so good to put it nicely. The low quality standards ( honestly they don't bother me but i can understand the people that have the issue). I could go on with more but i won't. Don't get me wrong there isn't one game on a console that gets everythiong completely right, but GT isn't even close to being really good at anything. It's not the only "sim" out there anymore. Its time to step there game up in my opinion.

Not all tracks have no life to them.

Sometimes (not all of the time) you can get around a corner faster power sliding than you can just doing slow in fast out, however in real life tires would be a issue after doing it over and over. (I can post a video proving this if you want).

I drive most of my cars stock, specially the ones I race. I only tune my drift cars.l, which I find a exhaust that sounds realistic. I also don't drive a car with poor sounding exhaust, which on some of the premium cars is not a issue. But like you said, it doesn't bother me much either. Sure the standards are a issue, I don't care for them that much.

Far as physics are concerned, I have played quite a few sims. Yes many were better than GT5 (which were on the PC, none of which are right on par with real life, but many are closer than GT5 is. Far as console sims, it is the closest to realism on the wheel.

There are many things they got wrong, there are some that they got right too. But let's try to stay on topic.

I don't know what wheel you own, but the topic is about the clutch physics. Which like I have said before, the only reason to have it the way it is because it is the proper way to shift. Power shifting isn't a correct technique for racing. That's the only reason I think they left it that way.
 
Yet another issue that should be taken care of and shoudn't be to hard to fix but is completely ignored by PD. Just because. Anyone who has plugged his G27 to a PC will know that the Logitech Profiler shows the clutch axis as being designed to emulate a certain "bite point", in the Profiler the clutch axis shows as a gauge with a black and a red zone hinting at the clutch being slightly dipped and clutch fully dipper with a middle point that should be the bite point. The G27, the cheapest wheel with a clutch pedal and gated shifter, can take it so hardware shouldn't be an issue. Why not doing it then?

I myself find it impossible to consistently drive fully manual in GT5 or the GT6 demo. It's mis-shift after mis-shift, it sucks. Lightning starts and heel and toe are out of the question obviously. It's really frustrating because I'm not a bad shifter in real life, I rarely miss a shift yet in GT I rarely GET a shift 👎. Get on it PD, don't sleep on your laurels, there's still plenty of work to do if you want to diserve that "Real Driving Simulator" title.

This is a demo, so you need to chill.

GT5 came out in 2010, we've been chilling for nearly 3 years and the GT6 demo has not fixed it.

Do we keep chilling until GT7 comes out? I think chilling is exactly what people should not do, so that PD gets the picture that their system is not acceptable.

What Bazz said. It's not just about the demo, it's about the problem being in GT5 and PD showing no signs of improvement in the demo which is basically a dress rehearsal before GT6 (or at least should be taken by PD as such). GT6 needs an improved clutch, no discussion.

VBR
Yet another fundamental thing wrong with GT that PD care little about fixing/improving.

I find myself agreeing with you a lot lately 👍, specially about the "fundamentally wrong things" with GT that would be so simple to fix yet receive no attention from PD.
 
Not all tracks have no life to them.

Sometimes (not all of the time) you can get around a corner faster power sliding than you can just doing slow in fast out, however in real life tires would be a issue after doing it over and over. (I can post a video proving this if you want).

I drive most of my cars stock, specially the ones I race. I only tune my drift cars.l, which I find a exhaust that sounds realistic. I also don't drive a car with poor sounding exhaust, which on some of the premium cars is not a issue. But like you said, it doesn't bother me much either. Sure the standards are a issue, I don't care for them that much.

Far as physics are concerned, I have played quite a few sims. Yes many were better than GT5 (which were on the PC, none of which are right on par with real life, but many are closer than GT5 is. Far as console sims, it is the closest to realism on the wheel.

There are many things they got wrong, there are some that they got right too. But let's try to stay on topic.

I don't know what wheel you own, but the topic is about the clutch physics. Which like I have said before, the only reason to have it the way it is because it is the proper way to shift. Power shifting isn't a correct technique for racing. That's the only reason I think they left it that way.

Power shifting is a technique used a lot in drifting though.
 
Reddee
Power shifting is a technique used a lot in drifting though.

Yeah I know that Dean, but you gave to look at the big picture. This game wasn't originally made for drifting, just because we do it, and there are modes for it, doesn't mean Kaz looked at that before setting the clutch like that. You got to remember, Kaz recently was truly inspired by drifting.
 
Yeah I know that Dean, but you gave to look at the big picture. This game wasn't originally made for drifting, just because we do it, and there are modes for it, doesn't mean Kaz looked at that before setting the clutch like that. You got to remember, Kaz recently was truly inspired by drifting.

Not to mention that if we were allowed power shifting, we would have a HUGE advantage over DS3/non clutch users. That's got something to do with the way the clutch performs.
 
Bluntified
Not to mention that if we were allowed power shifting, we would have a HUGE advantage over DS3/non clutch users. That's got something to do with the way the clutch performs.

Yeeeepp. You hit the nail on the head there too.
 
Agreed 100% this is the sole reason I don't play GT5. I can put up with the other issues but when the game doesn't do what it should due to bad controls I give up. All they need to do is allow gear changes while on full throttle and it would solve most issues.
 
Not to mention that if we were allowed power shifting, we would have a HUGE advantage over DS3/non clutch users. That's got something to do with the way the clutch performs.

And this is why mechanical damage needs to be an integral part of the game.
 
Fusion
And this is why mechanical damage needs to be an integral part of the game.

Yep. See a lot of people forget, if they allow power shifting without having mechanical damage, then why allow power shifting? It would be (and I can't believe I am saying this, but it is true) even more unrealistic than it is now.

Hints the reason they left it the way it is.
 
Not to mention that if we were allowed power shifting, we would have a HUGE advantage over DS3/non clutch users. That's got something to do with the way the clutch performs.


but were supposed to have an advantage. I wouldn't expect to play against somebody with a keyboard and mouse, at a First person shooter, with me using a controller and expect it to be a level playing field. The clutch in GT5 puts us at a disadvantage and spoils the enjoyment of the game, due to the mis-shifts.
 
For console racing games, where some users have wheels, pedals and shifters, and others are using controllers, Polyphony Digital must make sure those who have invested in wheels, because they want more immersion, have the most "realistic" experience. Then if there's issues with wheel owners having an unfair advantage, either controller aids should be implemented, or other settings that limit or prohibit the use of the clutch for a specific event.

As for mis-shifts, rather than just going into "N," even if there isn't a damage model for the transmission, at the very least, there should be a grinding noise, and a slight delay in the shift and the transmission and drive engaging. Regardless, the transmission should NEVER show "N" when your stick is in a gear. Above all else, though, this must be REALISTIC.

Another feature, directly related to this, is that in GT5, you can start a race, and only use the stick and get successful fast "power" shifts... unless you start using the clutch. Then the whole mis-shifting and "N" thing starts happening. Instead of this "instant in-game" transition from one mode to another, there should be a setting, OUTSIDE of the race, that "locks" it into either full clutch and manual or manual (sequential paddles or two-way stick), as well as automatic.

Essentially, there should be three SEPARATE transmission settings. The way it has been implemented in Gran Turismo, from 5 Prologue (which did require an "in-game" button press to change modes), GT5, and now the demo/Academy, the clutch and manual feature appear to have been added as an afterthought. I've read Kazunori's "excuses" for why it was set up that way. I don't buy it. I think someone was, and has continued to be "lazy" about this--they don't want to go back into the "coding" and testing of the game to address it. They have more important things to do, like go to car events, and drive race cars, and be a celebrity. I want to see someone that's truly passionate about his racing title, and you could see it in the original Gran Turismo. Right now, I'm just not feelin' it.

I know this will take more than just changing a few settings, essentially what they did in the update that supposedly addressed this. They will need to test and "balance" the Gran Turismo experience for both wheel and controller users, and that takes time. I know it will be important for Kazunori that controller users have the same experience, but it will require a "rewrite" of the code for the controllers, which, right now, is still probably close to the same as it was in the first Gran Turismo, just "patched" for the newer controllers.

It appears to me that essentially Kazunori is sacrificing the realism of the clutch because controller users take precedence, and he just doesn't have the time to deal with this. It's just an afterthought, and apparently he thinks having the subtitle, "The Real Driving Simulator" will be enough, and convince everyone, even people repeatedly working the clutch and stick to get a gear number instead of "N" after spending $300-$800 for a wheel is just fine.

Keep your comments and opinions coming (great so far), but please remember that this thread is specifically about the CLUTCH issue. To discuss other issues and wanted improvements, please go to the appropriate threads in this forum.
 
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In Forza 4, because the clutch model is good, in "lower-class" races (such as the Clio Cup) drivers who know how to use a manual transmission do have an advantage over those using sequential (stick, paddle, and controller).

The clutch in Forza is giving an unfair advantage to people using it. You can shift under full throttle and usage is basically pushing two buttons instead of one.
(Damage disabled, as it is in most playlists and the leaderboards)
 
@ ApexVGear

You got to remember that there isn't a grinding noise, or damage period to the drive train. I understand what you mean, it is irritating. Power shifting isn't a proper technique in racing, you have to remember that. In a game without mechanical damage, having the clutch like that would create a unfair advantage, not only that, it would make the clutch a pointless feature.

I don't think it's a matter of laziness, honestly if there is not mechanical damage, then leave it the same (maybe a little less sensitive).
 
@ ApexVGear

You got to remember that there isn't a grinding noise, or damage period to the drive train. I understand what you mean, it is irritating. Power shifting isn't a proper technique in racing, you have to remember that. In a game without mechanical damage, having the clutch like that would create a unfair advantage, not only that, it would make the clutch a pointless feature.

I don't think it's a matter of laziness, honestly if there is not mechanical damage, then leave it the same (maybe a little less sensitive).

I never said power shifting should be permitted. Quite simply, if a driver chooses to use the clutch and shifter, there should never be an instance where the stick is in a gear, and Gran Turismo is in "N."

If a driver makes a realistic successful shift with the clutch pedal and shifter, then they actually do have an advantage. If they either slightly "miss" the shift -OR- they simply push the stick to another gear without even using the clutch, there should be a brief grinding noise, and delay before the gear engages, and the wheel should vibrate. In a way, a "penalty" for the bad shift, and this results in a brief delay in the car's performance.

If a more robust damage model were to be added to Gran Turismo, where you have to pay for repairs after the race, then damage could be assessed for bad shifts as well--but this isn't even necessary as long as the feature above is implemented.
 
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