Fix the Gran Turismo CLUTCH movement

[Imari]

lol, I have a DFGT but I only got the base package with no clutch :/

There is no such thing as a DFGT with a clutch. You may be thinking of the G25 or G27, which are different wheels altogether.

 

[research]

.. He (Kaz) shouldn't make those statements knowing the direct competition has nailed that feature for years.

But... Does he? Does this guy, who has explicitly admitted in the recent past that he does not pay attention to other racing games/sims, know that they have already done the work for him in regards to some of these simple, fundamental features that would send GT up into the stratosphere?


I fear the answer to this question involves a big chunk of my bank account going to the ebay seller who best provides me with a solid gaming pc. This is SO not the direction I wish to take. And it's not a money issue- I desperately want to remain loyal to Gran Turismo. Am I a fool?

 

[Imari]

But... Does he? Does this guy, who has explicitly admitted in the recent past that he does not pay attention to other racing games/sims, know that they have already done the work for him in regards to some of these simple, fundamental features that would send GT up into the stratosphere?

I remember that comment. Possibly Kaz doesn't (although I sort of doubt that as well), but I find it hard to believe that none of the top guys at PD have enough interest in the world of simulation racing to be excited to try new sim games.

These are guys that have dedicated years of their lives to making GT. They must love racing games and racing, or they'd have given up long ago. That they would not love to try out others simply for the pleasure of it would seem wrong.

 

[Griffith500]

Somebody should tell Kazunori to check out LFS. That game/sim has that feature under the same conditions....since 2003.
Or the Forza series for that matter. He shouldn't make those statements knowing the direct competition has nailed that feature for years.

The other day I was playing GT5 and thought the clutch there works as an on/off button instead of an axis, like how a pedal should work (progressive points so lets say 255 buttons in it). Is that correct?
For coming to that conclusion I tried using clutch kick and in between, realizing the clutch (different from shifting) didn't work at all except at the very highest point and in which it had a fake progression that I didn't apply to the pedal.
That would explain why the engage point was never fixed, as it cannot be without an axis unless the engaging point is at the very beginning, like an on/off button is meant to work. Still, that's not tackling the issue directly and it won't work as well as having an axis with a proper "clutch model" (like LFS), but would end up in way less miss shifts, usable.

I don't really know what you're saying, but when the clutch was tweaked in an update, the progression felt a lot like LFS to me. But I only tend to drive stock cars, and I never bothered to test other parts on them, although others purportedly have and claim it makes a difference.

The threshold is indeed a long way down the travel, but that doesn't matter unless your clutch pedal has a realistic weighting to it. If you float between lots of different sims, I guess it can complicate the acclimatisation period a bit - it's just a few more laps, though, really isn't it?

I wouldn't say anyone had "nailed" it, though; satisfactory is a better word, for now, and I play LFS more often than GT5 at the moment (custom sounds).

 

[Lock2Lock]

But I only tend to drive stock cars, and I never bothered to test other parts on them, although others purportedly have and claim it makes a difference.

You are very correct.

Even if I modify a car on GT5, depending on how the shifting is, I apply a different type of clutch.

I have been telling people for two years now that applying the most expensive parts on the cars is not always the best thing to do. Every part you apply will affect the car in different ways.

The 1966 Shelby Cobra 427 for example... The twin-plate clutch actually makes the car shift slower. The stock clutch is the best.

It really all depends on the RPM the car tends to miss-shift at.

 

[Dinofly]

We need gear levers with force feedback!

 

[Coiler]

@OP I have only a DFGT so nah

 

[Normalaatsra]

OP is a sensationalist..
Word.

 

[research]

OP is a sensationalist..

A sensationalist that almost everyone subsequently agrees with? Try again, bro.

I remember that comment. Possibly Kaz doesn't (although I sort of doubt that as well), but I find it hard to believe that none of the top guys at PD have enough interest in the world of simulation racing to be excited to try new sim games.

These are guys that have dedicated years of their lives to making GT. They must love racing games and racing, or they'd have given up long ago. That they would not love to try out others simply for the pleasure of it would seem wrong.

But, look at the results. GT5 makes a pretty strong case that.. maybe nobody in there is really into the sim/racing game/motorsport world all that much.

In the link:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-20-inside-the-house-of-cars

Scroll down about halfway and you'll see where the writer is excited to see the vehicles at this Polyphony building, expecting some great sporting machines- only to find a bunch of bland prius and kei car garbage. And please, fanboys, do NOT try to defend that saying, "thats how it is in Japan, everybody drives these bland little kei boxes."

No, thats not how it is. Check out FarmOfMinds.com and see how the contributers to that site take trips to Japan and always have some great pics of World-Class machines patrolling the streets. If the Polyphony boys and girls are really into this culture, there would at least have been ONE or TWO sports cars in that photo.

 

[Imari]

Scroll down about halfway and you'll see where the writer is excited to see the vehicles at this Polyphony building, expecting some great sporting machines- only to find a bunch of bland prius and kei car garbage. And please, fanboys, do NOT try to defend that saying, "thats how it is in Japan, everybody drives these bland little kei boxes."

Having lived in Japan, they do. It costs a ton to run a car in Japan, and it costs substantially less to run a kei car. Older cars are penalised even more, so cheap older sports cars will probably cost you nearly as much as just buying a new one. The roads are far, far narrower than in the US. You have to prove that you own a parking space, and they're really not cheap. If you live in the city, it'll take you an hour and a half to drive to get out of the city so that you could actually use your sports car.

http://www.supermelf.com/japan/ajetdrivingbook/chap1.html

Maybe they're not into cars. But it's not nearly as cut and dried as you make it sound.

 

[djslofstra]

You don't know how expensive it is in Holland to own a car...
€5,70(=$7,70 USD) per gallon for diesel and €6,80 (=$9,18 USD) per gallon for gasoline.
Road tax: normal size diesel 1340 euros= 1809 dollar a year.
Road tax: normal size gasoline around 700 euros= 945 dollar a year.
And then insurance...
When you buy a new car, around half the cars price are taxes...

 

[TheeFrogmanlego]

So now it's a placeholder clutch?

I hear place holder one more time! THEY DO EXIST , Iv beta tested so many games , but not everything that's wrong with the demo is a place freaking holder

 

[Terronium-12]

These games you've beta tested had placeholder assets.

 

[research]

Having lived in Japan, they do. It costs a ton to run a car in Japan, and it costs substantially less to run a kei car. Older cars are penalised even more, so cheap older sports cars will probably cost you nearly as much as just buying a new one. The roads are far, far narrower than in the US. You have to prove that you own a parking space, and they're really not cheap. If you live in the city, it'll take you an hour and a half to drive to get out of the city so that you could actually use your sports car.

Maybe they're not into cars. But it's not nearly as cut and dried as you make it sound.

Good points, excellent retort, Imari. The things I hear from you guys in other countries about the nasty, unnatural costs of car ownership are downright tragic. But man, does PD not have global television advertisments themed "We Love Cars" ? Also, is this relatively small team of developers and programmers not paid hansomely for their monstrous, sleepless efforts? If Sony is raking in most of the profits from the GT series at any sort of disproportionate level, then I'd call that a problem. All PD employees should be paid VERY well in light of the facts (small team, hard work, big sales).

When I saw that picture of Priuses and Kei boxes lined up neatly and almost all the same color I nearly wept.

 

[Imari]

All PD employees should be paid VERY well in light of the facts (small team, hard work, big sales).

We can see some indication of wages on their recruitment site, unfortunately only in Japanese.

http://www.polyphony.co.jp/recruitment/

3D Designers - ~$40-$70k USD.
Software and Network Engineers - ~$60-100k USD.
Various part time jobs - ~$10-$15hr USD.

For reference, income tax in Japan is around 10%. Minimum wage varies, but it's generally around $8/hr from memory.

I have no idea whether the above is a reasonable wage for what they're doing or not, but someone else probably will.

 

[VBR]

Regarding the tour of PD's Studios as reported here on GT Planet news;


"Although the purpose of this visit was not to announce anything new about GT6, EuroGamer did confirm that there will be no changes or improvements to clutch response on wheels which support the third pedal."


This is very sad news indeed.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

Yes it is. Not going to lie, this makes me feel more disheartened about GT6 now. 👎

 

[MoLiEG]

Those are the kind of news you wish they were fake.

👎

 

[another_jakhole]

A sensationalist that almost everyone subsequently agrees with? Try again, bro.




But, look at the results. GT5 makes a pretty strong case that.. maybe nobody in there is really into the sim/racing game/motorsport world all that much.

In the link:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-20-inside-the-house-of-cars

Scroll down about halfway and you'll see where the writer is excited to see the vehicles at this Polyphony building, expecting some great sporting machines- only to find a bunch of bland prius and kei car garbage. And please, fanboys, do NOT try to defend that saying, "thats how it is in Japan, everybody drives these bland little kei boxes."

No, thats not how it is. Check out FarmOfMinds.com and see how the contributers to that site take trips to Japan and always have some great pics of World-Class machines patrolling the streets. If the Polyphony boys and girls are really into this culture, there would at least have been ONE or TWO sports cars in that photo.

And what does this mean, what you've said, if something more relevant about being car or racing enthusiasts is pointed out in that article?

The amount of racing gear and small trophies littered around the desks at Polyphony suggest that Yamuchi's not alone in pursuing real-life racing outside of work. There are also plenty of bikes propped up against desks - the commuting vehicle of choice, it would seem. "I don't know how many wheels there are here, but it's a lot," Yamauchi says. He rides into work in a Nissan GT-R himself, of course.

 

[MoLiEG]

You don't know how expensive it is in Holland to own a car...
€5,70(=$7,70 USD) per gallon for diesel and €6,80 (=$9,18 USD) per gallon for gasoline.
Road tax: normal size diesel 1340 euros= 1809 dollar a year.
Road tax: normal size gasoline around 700 euros= 945 dollar a year.
And then insurance...
When you buy a new car, around half the cars price are taxes...

And I thought petrol was quite expensive here in Mexico...

 

[Griffith500]

Regarding the tour of PD's Studios as reported here on GT Planet news;


"Although the purpose of this visit was not to announce anything new about GT6, EuroGamer did confirm that there will be no changes or improvements to clutch response on wheels which support the third pedal."


This is very sad news indeed.

Yes. The clutch is fine, though, if a little long. It's the gear selection filtering (against throttle position) that needs to be made optional.

The selection method also needs to be changed to "requested gear" being read from the controller, and the game trying to make that the "selected gear" as long as it's not, rather than giving up after the first attempt.

And here we see the issue with imprecise language and ignorant reporting. Not that I blame Eurogamer, assuming they don't know any better.

 

[research]

And what does this mean, what you've said, if something more relevant about being car or racing enthusiasts is pointed out in that article?

"The amount of racing gear and small trophies littered around the desks at Polyphony suggest that Yamuchi's not alone in pursuing real-life racing outside of work."

This is a good counter to my rantings on the subject- I missed that quote.

Good catch, A_J. My other point still stands- GT5 makes a strong case that something is amiss, as the motorsport/racing aspects are absent outright. And if a number of these PD employees ARE into motorsport, then the clutch issue is orders more perplexing, frustrating, and inexcusable. (say that in a Jackie Childs voice, lol)

 

[nostuner03]

The IDEAL simulator shifter peripheral would be one that "kicks back" and/or locks you out of going into the gear should you get it totally wrong. If you "grind" it, then vibration motors in the shifter would provide the feedback through your hand--just like in a real car.

Until someone comes up with that, it is utterly ridiculous that, while operating the clutch as you would in a real car and you move the stick into a position and re-engage the drive (lift off the clutch), you still get "N" ...and you get it repeatedly as you "attempt" to get it into a gear.

I think GT6 needs a "Grinding Transmission" mod like the one made for Rfactor. I thought it was a good representation of a missed shift considering it used transmission telemetry data from the sim. If you're familiar with it, then you know how good it is.

 

[artica]

Here's my Vote:
Fix the clutch, please.

- psn: XarticaX

 

[tanveerahmed2k8]

I fully agree with this, maybe i can learn to drive if gt6 had proper clutch support?

 

[Lock2Lock]

I fully agree with this, maybe i can learn to drive if gt6 had proper clutch support?

Technically it is already teaching you proper shifting techniques.

 

[AnAL0G]

Glad to see this thread. We need to keep it active. I can't count the number of times I've shifted from 6th into 3rd, only to be put into 4th or 2nd gear. How this game can interpret 3rd for 2nd (opposite directions) I do not know, but having a proper clutch is a massive immersion factor and it needs to work correctly.

 

[Jay]

Yes. The clutch is fine, though, if a little long. It's the gear selection filtering (against throttle position) that needs to be made optional.

Indeed, this especially is where I hope improvements are made.

Glad to see this thread. We need to keep it active. I can't count the number of times I've shifted from 6th into 3rd, only to be put into 4th or 2nd gear. How this game can interpret 3rd for 2nd (opposite directions) I do not know, but having a proper clutch is a massive immersion factor and it needs to work correctly.

Sounds like it might be something with your shifting unit, not GT5. I have had it happen on odd occasions on my G25 but only when I hit the gate and barely make it in the gear I wanted (and it incorrectly selected the gear on the other side of the gate).

 

[AnAL0G]

Sounds like it might be something with your shifting unit, not GT5. I have had it happen on odd occasions on my G25 but only when I hit the gate and barely make it in the gear I wanted (and it incorrectly selected the gear on the other side of the gate).

Not sure. I'm using a G27. In particular 3rd gear goes to 4th gear instead over half the time, and especially when shifting from 6th.

 

[Jay]

Not sure. I'm using a G27. In particular 3rd gear goes to 4th gear instead over half the time, and especially when shifting from 6th.

I am pretty sure it is a shifter unit issue, I have heard of issues like this before. GT5 just takes the signals from your hardware unit. If GT5 was to make these errors it would be a similar case if the game steering right when you steer left.


Others having similar issues:

https://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=78098

http://forums.logitech.com/t5/PC-Gaming/G27-shifter-Only-3rd-amp-4th-gear/td-p/857966