FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Thats not a modded game, its a developers edition.


And also, you can change the camera view via Multi screen settings.

But I believe his point is, everything is modeled.

 

[HBK]

You buying Forza HBK ?

Forza 4 was pre-ordered as soon as I could. LCE of course.

You have no idea how much I want to play it. Now.

Well, maybe you have

Thats not a modded game, its a developers edition.

And also, you can change the camera view via Multi screen settings.

But I believe his point is, everything is modeled.

Not it's not, and it can be proved by playing with shadows. Only the half-modeled cockpit parts cast shadows on the ground when panning the cam in cockpit view. This can be seen on Sunset Peninsula, on the last corner if I remember right (you need an long enough casted shadow to be able to see it from the panned cockpit view). This can't be shown in photomode of course.

And yes, a devs edition is what I'd call a modded game. It just have been modded by the devs themselves to help test/debug the game

 

[PzR Slim]

This video comes from a modded game, FYI.

But it does prove that FM3 had at least one full model 3D interior which was the point of it being posted to refute it's him's claim

 

[Hotspitta]

Off the top of my head.

• The career-gifted 908, career-gifted BMW M3 race car, HKS Evo, and all Super-GT Nissan GTR cars, among many others, have completely non-working displays.
• Most NSX display wrong/biased tachometer speed, same with R5 Turbo and many other cars.
• At least one of the TVR have a dashboard completely obstructed by the driving wheel due to the camera position, again, this can be seen on other cars.
• The Twingo and FTO display MPH instead of KPH, which is, again, a fault shared by other cockpits.
• I believe it was the Esprit or maybe one of the MX5 which has a reversed mirror (rear view mirror I think). Admittedly, this is a not a common fault, but it's a most disturbing one.

There's just too many of 'em for me to ignore. And I love FM3. I think it's one of the best game I've ever played. I just can't ignore those bugs when there's too many of them.

Just so you know, I play in cockpit view with HUD off. So obviously I'm gonna notice these faults so much more.


This video comes from a modded game, FYI.

That video is still FM3. (The claim was made that FM series didn't have fully 3D rendered interiors like GT5...so) And i do agree with some of the non working gauges(I just went back and checked). But in the end i can live with those.

However i cant live with no cockpits at all. FM3 still has most cockpits of any racinggame ever made too this date.. Pc or console. BTW i drive with the HUD on. Indeed i think it's more noticable for people like you who drive without it.👍

 

[HBK]

But it does prove that FM3 had at least one full model 3D interior which was the point of it being posted to refute it's him's claim

I'm sorry, but I don't see what the point is. Of course the interiors have been fully modeled. Or else you couldn't see them in the menus (even if the camera cannot ever go inside the car). But I can confirm that on a retail game, there is no "fully modeled interior" on the track, be it in race or in replay. This "fully modeled interior" is displayed while in photomode though.

To be clear, there are three basic models for each FM3 car.

1. The "in-race" model (which is also displayed in replays), which is a low-poly model with almost no interior.
2. The "menu" model (which is used for the player car in photomode), which is a high-poly model with a "fully modeled interior".
3. The "cockpit" model (which is only used in cockpit view for the player car), which is basically a "menu model" cut in half.

Edit :

That video is still FM3.

Not it's not. And I'm not trying to be a bitch here. There is just no way for me to have a "fully modeled interior" in my retail game (while playing, photomode is a different beast).

 

[PzR Slim]

I'm sorry, but I don't see what the point is.

Then I'll reiterate my point. ItsHim said....

Feel free to correct me, but FM3 does not feature full 3d interiors _at all_.

...the video posted proves they do, as you have agreed. My point was to refute ItsHim's claim that 'FM3 does not feature full 3d interiors _at all_.'.

 

[zr1chris]

And if you chose not to quote percentages but count the cars, the numbers wouldn't look that dramatic.

Feel free to correct me, but FM3 does not feature full 3d interiors _at all_.

So that's 100% vs 80% by your maths, isn't it?

Grasping at straws I see.
For the biased GT fans thinking that we are simply being biased FM fans. These are the weak arguements against FM that gets quickly dismissed becuase it is not even a valid point. Id rather have a 2d interior on all cars then have no interior at all on 80% of them.

 

[PzR Slim]

Grasping at straws I see.
For the GT fanboys thinking that we are simply being biased FM fans. These are the weak arguements against FM that gets quickly dismissed becuase it is not even a valid point. Id rather have a 2d interior on all cars then have no interior at all on 80% of them.

Look can everybody stop using the term fanboy. It's very clear in the first post, that term is not to be used. So can we please stop using it. It does nothing but cause unnecessary friction.

 

[HBK]

My point was to refute ItsHim's claim that 'FM3 does not feature full 3d interiors _at all_.'.

My bad. We are in agreement, then

 

[Pupik]

Look can everybody stop using the term fanboy. It's very clear in the first post, that term is not to be used. So can we please stop using it. It does nothing but cause unnecessary friction.

...

However I want to clarify a few points in this regard:

• Opinion is not fact - don't present it as such
• Argue the point don't attack the person making it
• The term 'fanboy' (including any and all derivations) is banned
• Accusations of 'Troll' simply because you don't like what someone says are also out
• If you make a claim back it up with sources - fail to do so and you will be asked to provide them

...

Discuss away, but play nicely.

For those who are too lazy to actually read the first post.

 

[PzR Slim]

My bad. We are in agreement, then

Don't worry about. Very easy in this thread for that to happen.

 

[zr1chris]

Look can everybody stop using the term fanboy. It's very clear in the first post, that term is not to be used. So can we please stop using it. It does nothing but cause unnecessary friction.

For those who are too lazy to actually read the first post.

Apologies. Post edited.

 

[Luminis]

As for that link above:

1. MS/T10 are announcing the popular Tsukuba track to be in FM4, in time for TGS. It's available in both the long version and the short version.
2. It's speculated that the FM4 demo will be released on Thursday the 15th, as the FM3 demo was released during that time prior to TGS 2009. That's pure speculation, though.

 

[HBK]

As for that link above:

1. MS/T10 are announcing the popular Tsukuba track to be in FM4, in time for TGS. It's available in both the long version and the short version.
2. It's speculated that the FM4 demo will be released on Thursday the 15th, as the FM3 demo was released during that time prior to TGS 2009. That's pure speculation, though.

I very highly doubt the demo would be released tomorrow without any kind of announcement. Plus demos are usually released on Tuesdays, even if this rule is far from being set in stone.

 

[Zer0]

Thats not a modded game, its a developers edition.


And also, you can change the camera view via Multi screen settings.

But I believe his point is, everything is modeled.

The video is from a hacked game. He does replace the low detailed ingame cars with an highly detailed menu car, he change game parameters like the smoke quality, place cameras in different positions and many more things that are not available in the game.

http://www.x360racer.com/jeux/67-forza-motorsport-3/1653-forza-motorsport-3-modde

The price to pay is 30fps graphics and only *one* car on track at once. The console is not powerfull enought to move that detail with more data.

Like HBK said the ingame interiors are not fully modeled, a different half car model is used for the cockpit view, that's because you can't see the car interior in back view during gameplay.

 

[cuco33]

There are many cars with "cockpit issues" in FM3. I'd say about half of the original car count have some kind of issue, including :

• Dashboards not working at all.
• Badly calibrated gauges (displaying biased/erroneous information).
• Dashboards not visible because of bad camera position.
• Reversed mirrors.
• Even a fuel gauge moving backwards
• And of course a rotating driving wheel on the Citroen C4

And I'm not making this up. There is a huge number of cars with those "cockpit issues". About half of the race cars have completely non-working digital displays. Event the career-gifted cars have those issues damnit

I mean they didn't even try to hide them.

Edit : Gotta love Luminis vegetables metaphor from last page 👍

I didn't know about a lot of that lol. I tend to drive in hood cam, bumper cam and on occasion jump into cockpit view. Thing is that you can't adjust the view in cars in cockpit so easily so sometimes the default view might be great for 1 car but is horrible for another (mainly due to so much obstruction like roll bars, steering wheels/dashes, Apillars, etc). I hope in FM4 they allow us adjustability, even if only a few options like how GT5 has. I'd still rather have a view present in all cars than not having a view on the majority of cars. I know some people on the web who refused to buy GT5 simply because of no cockpit views (their preferred view) on all cars. I'd be fine if they went the GT PSP method by having a black silhouette than nothing at all but I'm sure that'd get it's own thrashing by folks here.

I think form now on I'm going to cycle through the views a bit and see what I can spot. I'd still like a cockpit view on all cars even with these issues though. I tend to know what gear I'm in, see the digital numbers (not the cockpit gauge) for speed but mostly shifting based mostly on sound alone.

 

[Luminis]

I very highly doubt the demo would be released tomorrow without any kind of announcement. Plus demos are usually released on Tuesdays, even if this rule is far from being set in stone.

I posted in the wrong thread, anyways

 

[UKMikey]

Er, thanks Luminis.

My position on this eternal question is that I played from Lv1 to Lv50 in an offline single player campaign and didn't encounter any of the issues Tenacious D describes.

However having played GT5 for a relatively shorter amount of time it was impossible to avoid many of the flaws described by Luminis and others on this thread.

 

[TT3AZ]

Well, the biggest flaw, glitch or what ever in fm3 is the fact the tyre friction is way out of order, specially for drag racing, that pisses me off. Second, there is other annoying glitches, for example when you tune your car, the grip changes automaticly even if you dont change anything in the setup, that is a pain, specially if you are drag tuning. I prey to god/allah/buddha/jehove that turn 10 dont let us down again =/

 

[UKMikey]

I'm sorry to hear that and hope they fix it.

It's perhaps a good thing that drag racing isn't central to the single-player campaign. I'd imagine other people would find the AWD performance glitch more annoying.

However from my perspective most of the potholes on the FM3 road were near the edges of the track and more easily avoidable than had they been all over the racing line.

A good FM4 would be good for all console racers, GT and FM alike so I hope T10 don't drop the ball too heavily.

 

[Spagetti69]

Well, the biggest flaw, glitch or what ever in fm3 is the fact the tyre friction is way out of order,

Which way, I've heard the too grippy and too slippy sides of the argument.

Tuning on track where dynamic changes take effect Is the way to go. IMHO.

 

[HBK]

I didn't know about a lot of that lol. I tend to drive in hood cam, bumper cam and on occasion jump into cockpit view. Thing is that you can't adjust the view in cars in cockpit so easily so sometimes the default view might be great for 1 car but is horrible for another (mainly due to so much obstruction like roll bars, steering wheels/dashes, Apillars, etc). I hope in FM4 they allow us adjustability, even if only a few options like how GT5 has. I'd still rather have a view present in all cars than not having a view on the majority of cars. I know some people on the web who refused to buy GT5 simply because of no cockpit views (their preferred view) on all cars. I'd be fine if they went the GT PSP method by having a black silhouette than nothing at all but I'm sure that'd get it's own thrashing by folks here.

I think form now on I'm going to cycle through the views a bit and see what I can spot. I'd still like a cockpit view on all cars even with these issues though. I tend to know what gear I'm in, see the digital numbers (not the cockpit gauge) for speed but mostly shifting based mostly on sound alone.

There's still more than half of the cars with perfectly fine cockpits, even if some of them are a bit ugly. And some of the faults I mentioned are very minor, like tachometers with a 10kph bias at very high speeds (250kph), or rev meters with a 500rpm bias at max rev. But some of these errors are more than annoying/distracting. Non-working dashboards are one of them.

 

[TT3AZ]

Which way, I've heard the too grippy and too slippy sides of the argument.

Tuning on track where dynamic changes take effect Is the way to go. IMHO.

Well, i meant drag racing of course, the tires are to slipperly, unless you do the launch trick, that is rev engine before the green light and then release handbrake...but that is another thing. The thing is, forza 3 drag was poorly implemented, and i hope that changes in fm4.

 

[Bogie 19th]

The only change I know of for FM4 with regards to drag is that we now have drag tires/slicks.

 

[TT3AZ]

The only change I know of for FM4 with regards to drag is that we now have drag tires/slicks.

Well, i have also heard that, question is if that would make the whole dragging thing better, i really hope so...

 

[ItsHim]

Then I'll reiterate my point. ItsHim said....

...the video posted proves they do, as you have agreed. My point was to refute ItsHim's claim that 'FM3 does not feature full 3d interiors _at all_.'.

I stand corrected then, there are full 3D cockpit models in Forza 3. The visual impression they gave me though was not that of a fully modeled interior but rather a texture on a basic 3D shape. Thus I once called them 2.5 D models. But there you go, you learn something every day.

Grasping at straws I see.
For the biased GT fans thinking that we are simply being biased FM fans. These are the weak arguements against FM that gets quickly dismissed becuase it is not even a valid point. Id rather have a 2d interior on all cars then have no interior at all on 80% of them.

Nope. On the other hand I find splitting hairs a bit tedious.

I spent probably more time in FM2 online than in GT4 and GT5 offline combined, so whatever label you saw fit for me won't do. It was a bloody good experience, but then this is what Forza does: online. I'm just not so sure it does the car bit quite so well.

I guess quoting again percentages should make the achievement of GT look smaller than it is - while it's roughly 250 cars vs. 500 cars. Which it simply isn't considering all things and trade-offs.

Anyway, I'm quite looking forward comparing night shots of the Nordschleife or rain on the Mulsanne between FM4 and GT5 👍

 

[KreepaEvox]

Well, i meant drag racing of course, the tires are to slipperly, unless you do the launch trick, that is rev engine before the green light and then release handbrake...but that is another thing. The thing is, forza 3 drag was poorly implemented, and i hope that changes in fm4.

Well, it wasn't that it was poorly implemented as in TRACTION per se, the game was missing a DRAG slick compound, which is different to a track/circuit slick in many ways, specially in the way it handles traction, given surface types, track/tire temperatures, angle of load etc.

Now the drag MODE was poorly implemented indeed: No staging, no tire heating burnouts ( even after the update in which they changed the initial tire temp to be the optimal one, missing burnouts was detrimental to the experience... but I can understand, the mechanic that the burnout/staging would hamper the online play), and not enough events in career, which where fixable with the "secret" make your own event in the private lobby. Well, and the most obvious was that the AI couldn't drag to save it's own life, lol

 

[KreepaEvox]

Anyway, I'm quite looking forward comparing night shots of the Nordschleife or rain on the Mulsanne between FM4 and GT5 👍

Not sure if serious/ troll bait, but we have known for some time now that FM4 wont have night or weather

 

[ItsHim]

Not sure if serious/ troll bait, but we have known for some time now that FM4 wont have night or weather

You're right I should have voiced my statement differently - yet I feel the graphical quality of GT was belittled by quoting percentages while in true numbers the result looks quite different and, on top of that, GT5 does weather effects and day/night transitions.

A drawback certainly are the improved but still jaggy shadows but personally, I'm glad about this trade-off.

 

[430_Riviera]

I feel the graphical quality of GT5 is belittled by the fact the graphical quality of GT5 isn't that great. It's got shiny bits, for sure. So has FM3 (photo mode, driving in 60fps etc.) though the shiniest bits in FM3 are outshone by the shiniest bits in GT5 for sure. There are times though, like on the snow tracks where GT5 looks like a slightly shined up port from a ps1 version during driving.

In short, there are times where the game looks horrible and that is unforgiveable to me. IMO, Forza has better graphics overall.