FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Ryan81]

For me, most standard cars actually look very respectable in GT. The biggest drawback is not their graphical quality but rather lack of cockpit view. However, now that I have experienced them, I would definately not consider getting rid of them and leaving only premiums because that would be depriving myself of many great cars.
But yeah, Forza definately has more consistency in this department as all their cars have cockpit views, even if they are not as detailed as GT5's premium cockpits.

 

[Luminis]

The last thing I'll say about this new standard/premium car debate is this:
I would have much rather seen PD go with car models that are not as "over the top" as the premium models, but closer to what Prologue offered. Maybe a bit higher than the cars in Prologue, even.

400 to 500 cars of that quality would, in my opinion, have done the game much better than the whole standard/premium car thing...

It's just personal opinion, but I don't see it as a good idea to create cars that are so above everything else that they're getting in the way of the game itself. It's cool to see every screw and the stitching in the interior in photo mode, of course, but that doesn't really sway my opinion.

Add to that that the list of premium cars in GT5 is, well, a bit sub-par* in my opinion and I guess it's not hard to understand that disappointment is felt by quite a few people about the whole thing. After all, the standard cars not only look inferior, but also are inferior in terms of features.

To me, the standard cars are testimony to a decision and course of action I can't really agree with.

*I don't think it offers the diversity I would've liked to see and there seem to be lots of very similar cars. The SuperGT cars would be an example of this, or the different versions of the R35 GTR or the Miata, plus those valuable slots given to, say, the Prius. This just hurts the overall car list more than it would have if there were 400-500 cars, as the total amount of desirable cars diminishes a bit more in comparison, in my opinion.

 

[jabofu]

I could enjoy the standard cars in GT5 more, when there would be an acceptable driving view for me.

The "hood" view is way to high and the bumber cam is totally unrealistic, but maybe usefull for aliens. This doesnt let you enjoy them at all.

 

[barryl85]

While on the subject of 'views' can I just say the chasecam in GT5 is borderline pathetic - glued to the back of the car, I find every other view fine except this abomination.

You cant look round the car either - for a game boasting about its graphics having a look around the car in chase view would be great while racing.

Even with the most extreme handbrake turn you cant see the alloys you carefully picked*cough premium only* for the car, you know sometimes its good just to go on a little drive no seriousness and enjoy little things like that and you cant.


Edit: Just thinking about it - this was easily done to make sure you didnt look around a standard car as you would instantly restart your console thinking something was up with the octagon wheel arches.

 

[HBK]

The last thing I'll say about this new standard/premium car debate is this:
I would have much rather seen PD go with car models that are not as "over the top" as the premium models, but closer to what Prologue offered. Maybe a bit higher than the cars in Prologue, even.

I'm pretty sure most GT5p models were ported over to GT5. And most new GT5 models are of similar quality, model wise (number of polys and overall modeling quality).

GT5 models look impressive thanks to the lighting engine and the incredible in-house modeling skills PD has. But they are neither perfect nor as über-detailed as some people would think.

 

[Luminis]

I'm pretty sure most GT5p models were ported over to GT5. And most new GT5 models are of similar quality, model wise (number of polys and overall modeling quality).

They lack, at the very least, the fully modelled interiors (to my knowledge, at least). That's where a lot of details went to waste, in my opinion. It's nice to have the rear seats modelled, but it jsut adds so little to the game compared to how much time has to be spend on that.

 

[HBK]

They lack, at the very least, the fully modelled interiors (to my knowledge, at least). That's where a lot of details went to waste, in my opinion. It's nice to have the rear seats modelled, but it jsut adds so little to the game compared to how much time has to be spend on that.

I'm not sure I follow you. GT5 Premiums, like GT5p cars, have "fully modeled interiors". Backseats are going to be modeled if you want the level of detail expected of current games. What is more questionable is the ability to read some headlamp markings. But then again not all GT5 cars display such details.

The ability to see the whole interior while racing is a different thing though (I personally find it very nice, as it adds more "character" to the car).

 

[HBK]

I'll try to put it more clearly.

GT5 Premium/GT5p cars aren't that über-detailed. But Polyphony has spent a huge amount of time/effort to make them as accurate as possible. That's not to say their work is perfect, but it is much harder to spot inaccuracies on GT5 cars than it is on FM3/4 cars. I mean, the Enzo's nose is *still* wrong in FM4 from what we saw.

I for one know I would choose 500 nicely detailed if not über-accurate cars over 200 similarly detailed but über-accurate cars. I can see however how one would think the opposite.

I mean, I wish FM4 cars would be as accurate as GT5 cars, but I'm reasonable enough to understand that it's not gonna be possible for production reasons. You can't build 200 über-accurate cars a year, that's just not possible with current state of the art.

 

[amar212]

The ability to see the whole interior while racing is a different thing though (I personally find it very nice, as it adds more "character" to the car).

I agree. Having all interior modeled is something that makes driving a premium car in GT5/GT5: Prologue a truly immersive experience.

I know it means nothing to people who does not race from cockpit, but for me it is something that makes me believe about actual "being" in the vehicle.

However, it has to be noted there are few Premium models in GT5 that have no rear-view modeled (JGTC cars and some other racing vehicles for example) and that really bugs me.

In the same line, it bugs me even more that Forza don't have any of rear or even true side-interior modeled, together with a fact how it punishes all of us wheel users with the lack of option to see even glympse of the side-interiors while looking left/right from the car (which you can partially observe when playing with the simple controller).

GT5 really excels in that area with Premium models/GT5P models.

 

[barryl85]

I'll try to put it more clearly.

GT5 Premium/GT5p cars aren't that über-detailed. But Polyphony has spent a huge amount of time/effort to make them as accurate as possible. That's not to say their work is perfect, but it is much harder to spot inaccuracies on GT5 cars than it is on FM3/4 cars. I mean, the Enzo's nose is *still* wrong in FM4 from what we saw.

There is no competition between GT5 & FM3/FM4 as far as car sounds go - Forza wins hands down, GT5 does have some nice sounding cars but they never sound like an actual driving car does, like the clutch delay and engaging and exhaust burbles pops and bangs (its hard to explain). FM series for me has always had better sounding cars.

I for one know I would choose 500 nicely detailed if not über-accurate cars over 200 similarly detailed but über-accurate cars. I can see however how one would think the opposite.

I agree with this !

I mean, I wish FM4 cars would be as accurate as GT5 cars, but I'm reasonable enough to understand that it's not gonna be possible for production reasons. You can't build 200 über-accurate cars a year, that's just not possible with current state of the art.

Well they will be more accurate or acceptable than 800 of GT5 cars.

With your wording of your statement GT5 cars equate to Premium only. Kind of like saying true GT5 are the premium cars but not politically correct as 800 standards are still GT5 cars.

Making such a grand assumption such as "that's just not possible with current state of the art." is crazy - just because PD couldnt manage it in 5yrs doesn't mean its not possible. With enough of the right people and not just one persons proofing (Kaz) anything is possible. Thats not to say I am 'assuming' FM4 cars will be more or even similarly "accurate" than GT5 Premium cars because I am in no way doing or saying so.

 

[barryl85]

I agree. Having all interior modeled is something that makes driving a premium car in GT5/GT5: Prologue a truly immersive experience.

I know it means nothing to people who does not race from cockpit, but for me it is something that makes me believe about actual "being" in the vehicle.

I agree somewhat - how does one look at the entire rear interior whilst in a race or driving in GT5? I havent ever been able to do so or have failed to (one or the other).

So if you cant have this wonderful view of the "fully modeled interior" then whats the point of it being modeled?

In the same line, it bugs me even more that Forza don't have any of rear or even true side-interior modeled, together with a fact how it punishes all of us wheel users with the lack of option to see even glympse of the side-interiors while looking left/right from the car (which you can partially observe when playing with the simple controller).

GT5 really excels in that area with Premium models/GT5P models.

FM3 interiors was a last minute thing - I think they did well to provide what they did and I take nothing away from the wonderful interiors of GT5. As far as looking around the interior goes I agree it would be better for the wheel users having that option.

However PD has totally been sly with the chase cam and the ability to look around the car, worse thing is the camera is glued to the back of the car which makes it wierd trying to drive with chase cam. Its like Ridge Racer and I hated that entire game for that very reason.

I am a cockpit user but I like to look at the exterior of the car after being able to modify the exterior why shouldnt we be able to?

I believe the reason is because PD doesnt want the users to observe too much of the standard cars exteriors I make this assumption along with the fact you cannot zoom in as far in photomode as you can on premium models.

 

[OGL]

Well, T10 managed to make 25 even more uberdetailed cars in a year, because the first year of production they were probably just developing the concept of AV and IBL. I doubt anyone will argue that AV cars are way more detailed than even GT's premiums.

 

[Zer0]

I feel the graphical quality of GT5 is belittled by the fact the graphical quality of GT5 isn't that great. It's got shiny bits, for sure. So has FM3 (photo mode, driving in 60fps etc.) though the shiniest bits in FM3 are outshone by the shiniest bits in GT5 for sure. There are times though, like on the snow tracks where GT5 looks like a slightly shined up port from a ps1 version during driving.

In short, there are times where the game looks horrible and that is unforgiveable to me. IMO, Forza has better graphics overall.

That's not an overall point of view, that's looking for the worst case scenario in GT5 and giving the lowest credit to any feature done better than FM.

For example the snow tracks. Are mile better graphically than GT4 and FM have not a single snow track or effect but you use the less brilliant moments of that feature in GT5 to give more credit to FM. Absurd in all senses.

It's like looking for a theory in which GT4 is stated to have overall better graphics than GT5 using the same examples used for FM(shadows, framerate, tearing...) over any real graphics innovations or improvements.

Wich have better graphics halo 3(very stable but limited) or Crisys 2(more unstable but very rich)?..

They lack, at the very least, the fully modelled interiors (to my knowledge, at least). That's where a lot of details went to waste, in my opinion. It's nice to have the rear seats modelled, but it jsut adds so little to the game compared to how much time has to be spend on that.

Time? the same used in modelling the unused full car interiors in all FM menu cars. The work is done is just a thing of lack of resources or computer power to use them or not during gameplay.

I'm sure that in the future when the hardware ease the things for T10 Forza games will use full interiors like GT5 is using now.

 

[barryl85]

Time? the same used in modelling the unused full car interiors in all FM menu cars. The work is done is just a thing of lack of resources or computer power to use them or not during gameplay.

I'm sure that in the future when the hardware ease the things for T10 Forza games will use full interiors like GT5 is using now.

Are you assuming the Xbox 360 cant handle it?

The 360 & PS3 are very similar infact its been proven that the 360 is infact more powerful in some aspects.

And GT5 is only using for a mere 200 cars, what about the other 800? can the hardware not handle it going by your logic?

 

[HBK]

I know it means nothing to people who does not race from cockpit, but for me it is something that makes me believe about actual "being" in the vehicle.

Exactly.

However, it has to be noted there are few Premium models in GT5 that have no rear-view modeled (JGTC cars and some other racing vehicles for example) and that really bugs me.

I'm convinced this has been done on purpose because such cars have no visibility at all in rear view (so that when looking back in rear view you see something even if it's not realistic).

With your wording of your statement GT5 cars equate to Premium only. Kind of like saying true GT5 are the premium cars but not politically correct as 800 standards are still GT5 cars.

I just don't see the point of comparing GT5 "Standard" cars with anything else released on this gen. They are an aberration and this has been stated numerous times already.

Making such a grand assumption such as "that's just not possible with current state of the art." is crazy - just because PD couldnt manage it in 5yrs doesn't mean its not possible. With enough of the right people and not just one persons proofing (Kaz) anything is possible.

No, that's not. No one did it until now because it's just not possible. The amount of QA needed to achieve such quality on so many assets is just not reachable in such a short time frame, not matter how much money is spent.

 

[OGL]

Are you assuming the Xbox 360 cant handle it?

The 360 & PS3 are very similar infact its been proven that the 360 is infact more powerful in some aspects.

And GT5 is only using for a mere 200 cars, what about the other 800? can the hardware not handle it going by your logic?

Is that why hardly many exclusive games on Xbox run at 720p? Basically thats what Dan said - if they were to do night, weather they would have to drop quality significantly. It doesn't even have dynamic lighting. GT 5 does all that at 1080p at almost 60fps at most times. Consider as well that AI cars are pretty bad in FM and the driver doesn't even have legs. Many simplifications were made in FM that weren't in GT.

 

[dzidza]

Are you assuming the Xbox 360 cant handle it?

The 360 & PS3 are very similar infact its been proven that the 360 is infact more powerful in some aspects.

And GT5 is only using for a mere 200 cars, what about the other 800? can the hardware not handle it going by your logic?

If x360 can handle it, then T10 doesn't have a good game engine. It's not always about power, it's a about developers also and what their knowledge can achieve with certain resources.

 

[HBK]

IGT 5 does all that at 1080p at almost 60fps at most times.

No it doesn't. GT5 hardly ever maintains 60fps on dry tarmac. With weather effects, the framerate tend to drop down to the 30~40 range.

And I'd go as far as to say that anyone thinking the PS3 is more powerful than the 360 has just read too many BS.

Both consoles are pretty much similar in terms of processing power, even if they do things differently.

 

[Luminis]

Time? the same used in modelling the unused full car interiors in all FM menu cars. The work is done is just a thing of lack of resources or computer power to use them or not during gameplay.

I'm sure that in the future when the hardware ease the things for T10 Forza games will use full interiors like GT5 is using now.

Last time I checked, there have been quite a few people stating that a single premium car takes so long to model because of the high details and whatnot. My point being, if that takes so much time that other aspects of the game seemingly suffer from it, cutting down on the detail of each individual car slightly(!) would've probably been a better course of action. Or picking a car list like that of Shift 2 Unleashed. Which managed to be very good with very few cars... Of which all were heavily modifiable (race modification comes to mind), though.

In my opinion, of course.

So if you cant have this wonderful view of the "fully modeled interior" then whats the point of it being modeled?

At least someone who got my point... Nothing wrong with adding cars that are so detailed that those details will matter almost only in photo mode, if you have the spare time to pull it off.

 

[OGL]

One thing about the graphics differences is that PS 3 can handle dynamic lighting and shadows very well(almost every PS3 exclusive game has it), while Xbox games don't have this ( Forza, Gears, Halo, you name it, only AW and only at 540p), at the same time Xbox has better textures and Halo and Forza are a great example.

 

[barryl85]

I just don't see the point of comparing GT5 "Standard" cars with anything else released on this gen. They are an aberration and this has been stated numerous times already.

I agree somewhat but the fact is those standard cars are as much GT5 cars as the premium ones.

No, that's not. No one did it because it's just not possible. The amount of QA needed to achieve such quality on so many assets is just not attainable in such a short time frame, not matter how much money is spent.

I do not agree at all. Time does not always equal quality, and the development time for FM4 was not just one year.

 

[barryl85]

Is that why hardly many exclusive games on Xbox run at 720p? Basically thats what Dan said - if they were to do night, weather they would have to drop quality significantly. It doesn't even have dynamic lighting. GT 5 does all that at 1080p at almost 60fps at most times. Consider as well that AI cars are pretty bad in FM and the driver doesn't even have legs. Many simplifications were made in FM that weren't in GT.

No what Dan means is - he wouldn't want a screen tearing mess that GT5 is so the quality would have to be reduced to counter it, or pixelated smoke/shadows.

Whats the point in pushing these fantastical boundaries if the end result (which was ment to be perfection) actually receives more critisism than praise?

Thats the beauty of sensible developers they would rather make a well rounded game than one which has highs that make you go "WOW" and lows that make you go "OMG WTF".

If x360 can handle it, then T10 doesn't have a good game engine. It's not always about power, it's a about developers also and what their knowledge can achieve with certain resources.

My above point stands with this opinion too, its about having an overall package not some amazing areas shadowed by some of the worst decisions made by any game developer on current gen (especially one with fans expectations as high as the brand Gran Turismo deserves).

I was once a GT nut who would have defended in the absolute highest regard - GT5 changed that.



I also think a lot of you are forgetting the work Turn10 also had to put into the development of the highly succesful online features which are loved by the Forza community, they didnt just spend time modelling cars - they thought about other aspects that would create an enjoyable game.

 

[HBK]

I do not agree at all. Time does not always equal quality, and the development time for FM4 was not just one year.

Time does not always equal quality, you are correct. Still, quality needs time and effort.

 

[barryl85]

Time does not always equal quality, you are correct. Still, quality needs time and effort.

I will agree there, and don't get me wrong I can completely see where you are coming from and a part of me totally agrees but another part is telling me its wrong to make the assumption that no one could ever do it.

 

[Zer0]

I am a cockpit user but I like to look at the exterior of the car after being able to modify the exterior why shouldnt we be able to?

I believe the reason is because PD doesnt want the users to observe too much of the standard cars exteriors I make this assumption along with the fact you cannot zoom in as far in photomode as you can on premium models.

You can do all that pausing a replay and entering in photomode.

The reasons are that in a sim is not very useful to look around a car during gameplay. Same with an arcade like exterior view a la Ridge Racer. That dynamic views should have extra aids to make the game playable. A fixed view is more suitable for a non assisted control in a sim.

Are you assuming the Xbox 360 cant handle it?

The 360 & PS3 are very similar infact its been proven that the 360 is infact more powerful in some aspects.

And GT5 is only using for a mere 200 cars, what about the other 800? can the hardware not handle it going by your logic?

I'm asuming that T10 need to cut things in order to run the game and full interiors was one of those things.

For example:

If we cut down on the number of cars on track, used original Xbox-generation car models, dropped to 30 FPS, or (and this would be the most effective solution) built specific tracks from the ground-up to have less detail and thus extra performance headroom, then night racing and/or weather conditions may have been possible.

I don't know what console is more powerful I'm only stating facts between different developers achievements.

 

[Luminis]

I don't know what console is more powerful I'm only stating facts between different developers achievements.

Seems more like one manufacturer was willing to make sacrifices and the other wasn't... But that's just my interpretation of what Dan said.

 

[FyreandIce]

I'm asuming that T10 need to cut things in order to run the game and full interiors was one of those things.

For example:

If we cut down on the number of cars on track, used original Xbox-generation car models, dropped to 30 FPS, or (and this would be the most effective solution) built specific tracks from the ground-up to have less detail and thus extra performance headroom, then night racing and/or weather conditions may have been possible.

I don't know what console is more powerful I'm only stating facts between different developers achievements.

The difference is, T10 won't compromise on frame rate while PD obviously don't care about frame rate.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Turn 10 also had to sacrifice by having 16 cars on the road, in that new high detail with the new lighting...AND...still do the same thing with 16 cars on the road with up to 4000 layers of liveries on EACH car.

 

[cuco33]

Just an FYI, GT5 isn't true 1080p. Close but 1280x1080 isn't 1080p (1920x1080) and the framerate they tried keeping 60fps but tends to drop a lil below that. Then screen tearing. I myself am one who would rather see reduced textures or features to maintain consistent performance without much hit on frame rate or tearing. Performance > polish so to speak. But I don't think GT5 suffers as bad as some make it out to be.

 

[barryl85]

But I don't think GT5 suffers as bad as some make it out to be.

When I play GT5 - if I look at the grass when i'm driving its just tear after tear after tear and yes I have the latest updates and I mostly race on the nurb or suzuka.