FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[barryl85]

I'm sorry but the hondas sound bad ass, I will give you minus the V-tec activation sound however racing titanium on the honda S2000 is amazing.

The honda's sound pathetic in GT5

Heres a car that is in GT5 and on Tsukuba too tell me if it even sounds remotely similar:






p.s. sorry for the double post, meant to edit post above.

 

[SuperShouden]

He is so experienced as a race car driver that he knows that a sim doesnt need tyre-pressure adjustments and tyre width options, because it is not important in real life. Unrealistic grip levels through certain car/tyre-combinations are no problem at all too, because it is his vision and then everything is possible.

And to say that nobody in the Turn10 group has racing/track experience is a nice assumption. I didnt knew that you know every member personally and what they have done in their free time.

And to use this "argument" to judge Forza as the inferior game is just not reasonable at all.

You know it's nearly impossible to tell if someone's being sarcastic through text, right? And Turn10's already mentioned that no one on their team has any racing experience. I think Dan mentioned it again not too long ago. They work more closely with their partners than PD, though. Although, they haven't built a car, yet.

 

[Vaxxtx]

I think the differences between the games really comes from Kaz being an actual race car driver and the Turn10 group not having that experience. But, with some of the improvements to FM4, it should be better than GT5...and hopefully I can play it and FM3 until GT6 comes out.

Kaz's vision was horrible. You think because Kaz has raced cars it made GT5 better in ANY area? For someone that raced cars, he sure made sure GT5 was a long way off from that exp.

You know it's nearly impossible to tell if someone's being sarcastic through text, right? And Turn10's already mentioned that no one on their team has any racing experience. I think Dan mentioned it again not too long ago. They work more closely with their partners than PD, though. Although, they haven't built a car, yet.

Total sarcasim. How can you not tell?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Quick question slippy.

When doing a 6th to 2nd gear change, do the wheels lock up?
As I remember, they don't but I might be wrong.

They don't, no. I'm thinking the rough equivalent of revs I achieved in the WRX I was testing was about 35,000rpm .

On damage:
On paint chips:
I feel like PD implemented this to artificially lengthen the single player 'career'. Paying 30 grand for a BMW's Sepang bronze (or hoping to be given exactly that colour) because I want to have bronze wheels on my car seems plain stupid to me. 'Real colours with real name' is all nice and good, just put them on a second palette to freely chose from, or something. Personally, though, I couldn't care less about how the colour is calles or what car it came from, as that doesn't influence how it looks on my car, at all.

Admittedly, I find Forza's system a bit lacking too - I like knowing the official colours, and while Forza does offer a car to be repainted in its stock colours (handy), it'd be neat if we had one giant catalog in addition to the current system, that listed every OEM paint job. That way, I could, say, pick the Z3 M's Estorilblau Metallic (in Forza) and paint a 1-series M with it. It wouldn't be too hard to implement since that info is already in the game... keep the current palette system as well, of course!

If I liked Pokemon, that's what I'd be playing, by the way.


I agree that Kazunori is the cause of a lot of the quirks of GT5. However, I don't really see the touch of a passionate 'race car driver' in GT5.

You'd assume that tuning the car would have a higher priority (point in case: Tyre pressure, I don't know how a race driver could not acknowledge its importance). Same with engine/mechanical damage. Paint chips, museum cards, horns - that doesn't sound like something a dedicated race driver would be concerned with, either.

Being devil's advocate here - perhaps all the collectables really are evidence that Kaz and Co do listen to their fans? Look at which sub-forums are most popular for GT5 - the Marketplace. People obsessed with collecting, wanting every race suit, or every car in "0/0" form. You don't want Pokemon - but perhaps they're getting the idea a lot of other people do :-/

It's interesting though, since at least for me, it even affects how I play both games. GT, I buy so many cars from the UCD I haven't even driven, "just in case". When I play Forza, I only buy the cars I like.

 

[cuco33]

In Forza 3 you can adjust even the color options you have. You literally have every color possible in the game. It'd be nice to have the family color line though but I can see why they made it they way they did. I wouldn't be able to paint Nogaro Blue on an Audi model that had Nogaro Blue, but I can custom paint it in a way to get Nogaro Blue.

The only 'Pokemon feeling' I got was collecting cars. Even the econo-crap-boxes that I'll probably never drive. But paint chips and race suits... I don't think I've ever changed one in the game. There are people who are completion-ists, those that aim for all trophies/achievements and they tend to want to collect everything possible in the game. I'm not one of them, outside of the car collecting thing of course.

 

[JDMKING13]

Sadly, I'd agree with that

Hey Luminis I love my horns On a serious note the horns are cool for rolling drag on SSR7, three honks and then it's full blast. They make cool replays, and to hear the horns go off make it even better.

me. That's probably why I'll never get the drifting achievement on FM3.

Sorry TO drifting is not the same as touge. Kaido is a great example of touge I think as a whole the FM community thinks highly of the track. Driving on the track is always fun however driving on a mountain pass brings out another skill a driver need to have. This is why I love touge style racing.

I know I'm nitpicking, but touge isn't drifting .

Exactly. 👍

 

[Luminis]

I'm thinking the rough equivalent of revs I achieved in the WRX I was testing was about 35,000rpm .

Holy 🤬. I would expect half the car to be melting from the heat the friction's gonna generate.

Er... Melting... Damage model... Never mind.

Admittedly, I find Forza's system a bit lacking too

Oh, it's more than just a bit lacking. In my opinion, it lacks, most importantly, the different paint finishes one could use in Shift 2 Unleashed, for example. Matte, glossy, metalic, chrome, perlescent... It's all there. I'd be content if T10 is implementing those kinds of paint finishes. That'll be all I'm asking for.

As for manufacturer colours, I usually just look at the colour's parameters (lightness, tone, saturation) and recreate it... A bit of a hassle, truely, but I still prefer that to paint chips.

Being devil's advocate here - perhaps all the collectables really are evidence that Kaz and Co do listen to their fans? Look at which sub-forums are most popular for GT5 - the Marketplace. People obsessed with collecting, wanting every race suit, or every car in "0/0" form. You don't want Pokemon - but perhaps they're getting the idea a lot of other people do :-/

I'm wondering, though: Is that what they would've wanted, or is that just the fans making do with what GT5 offers them?

Plus, I'm not too sure about whether the activity in the forum is actually an indicator of how much those features are enjoyed.

It's interesting though, since at least for me, it even affects how I play both games. GT, I buy so many cars from the UCD I haven't even driven, "just in case". When I play Forza, I only buy the cars I like.

Well... In Forza, you can just purchase a car you might want, so there's no reason to be on the lookout for something you might not find again for a few days, so I think it's only natural.

Hey Luminis I love my horns On a serious note the horns are cool for rolling drag on SSR7, three honks and then it's full blast. They make cool replays, and to hear the horns go off make it even better

Hehe, yeah, I'm not against having a horn in the car, if that's what my comment seemed to indicate. It's having hundreds of collectible horns that makes me go 'WTF?!'

 

[VXR]

You can paint cars in other manufacturer's colours in FM3 (and 2). It appears in your recent colours list, just not necessarily at the closest slot to the left of the screen. Painted several cars in BMW's Laguna Seca Blue this way.

 

[I'm Motarded]

You know it's nearly impossible to tell if someone's being sarcastic through text, right? And Turn10's already mentioned that no one on their team has any racing experience. I think Dan mentioned it again not too long ago. They work more closely with their partners than PD, though. Although, they haven't built a car, yet.

Dan briefly mentions his track day experiences and how they compare to the rally school they had just attended as a team, also included is a re-cap of Christian Guirguis' experience at the 24 Hours of Lemons and what you can take from the track to the game and back again.
and to a lesser extent
Earlier this year, Turn 10’s Reed Knetzger took a trip that many Forza fans have dreamt about: a driving tour of the famous Nürburgring Nordschleife
I'm sure I could dig deeper into the archive and find more instances of the team going racing, but I'm lazy.

Gunnar jeanette (of ALMS) has been a involved as a tester for FM since at least FM3, the last I read about it he put in two consecutive eight hour stints on this rig

 

[Akira AC]

Interesting, comparing track days experience vs a real racing driver career(specially when the person who codes the game also runs 24h Nurburgring), that argument really holds nicely.

 

[I'm Motarded]

Does Kaz code? I would think he has just as much involvement as Dan does in that department = Exactly nil
I could be wrong but I don't think Presidents/Representative Directors got involved in that side of things. It would explain a lot about GT5 though

 

[Luminis]

Interesting, comparing track days experience vs a real racing driver career(specially when the person who codes the game also runs 24h Nurburgring), that argument really holds nicely.

Talking about arguments holding nicely, how about proving that actual racing experience positively influences the game? Until now, it's just a claim, it seems. "Real racing experience makes the game better." Oh, really? It does? What about it has improved due to the real racing experience?

So, until we settled that, it seems to be a rather moot point as to who's got the better racing experience.

All GT5 does well in that regard (or better than FM3, at least), seems to be 'driving feel', which you could very well gather experience with during a track day.

Gunnar jeanette (of ALMS) has been a involved as a tester for FM since at least FM3, the last I read about it he put in two consecutive eight hour stints on this rig

I knew Forza and Shift had race drivers test the game for them and give feedback... Has the same thing been done with GT5? I can't remember reading about stuff like that, at least.

 

[HBK]

Mr. Yamauchi gets to race around the Nurburgring. Good for him. Now if only it had helped avoid the complete mess that GT5 became

Hey, here's a protip, you can't follow two completely different careers and excel at both of 'em.

 

[Akira AC]

Producers do not get involve into direct game coding, however a game director or game designer must known basic principles about scripting and coding to be accepted on that area.

What KY can give is direct feedback to programmers about the right set-up for the physics and car behaviour, something that Dan Greenwalt cannot claim because he is a creative director, not a game designer.

I also find funny how a career of racing experience can be compared to a track day experience, sure Jeremy Clarkson can take on Sebastian Vettel any time he wants right?

Thousands of hours of experience, feedback and data analysis can be compared to no more than a 100 hours of feedback, that is what you people are trying to compare here, apparently.

 

[James1436]

Producers do not get involve into direct game coding, however a game director or game designer must known basic principles about scripting and coding to be accepted on that area.

What KY can give is direct feedback to programmers about the right set-up for the physics and car behaviour, something that Dan Greenwalt cannot claim because he is a creative director, not a game designer.

I also find funny how a career of racing experience can be compared to a track day experience, sure Jeremy Clarkson can take on Sebastian Vettel any time he wants right?

Dan has Pirelli for the "physics" and "car behavior" imput.

 

[Akira AC]

Dan has Pirelli for the "physics" and "car behavior" imput.

Pirelli does not give enough data, just like I say before, a year of partnership doesn't match 10 years of direct data feedback.

 

[I'm Motarded]

Luminis brings up the point that got erased from my post after being logged out which I forgot to replace. Racing experience (by the big wigs) barely means anything unless it's to do with physics/feel and that's what testers are for. You wouldn't need to actually have a racing license to improve that aspect of the game, just a passion for the sport and the willingness to translate that via research and application.

And No I don't remember seeing that kind of testing for GT5, I heard talk (of PD testing) but can't remember any notable names being mentioned (not to say that they weren't). Surely somebody here will be able to find something though won't they?

Forgive me, but isn't creative director and game designer the same thing but different wording?
Edit - Turns out it's a moot point anyway in this argument if you check out Dan's resume

 

[James1436]

Pirelli does not give enough data, just like I say before, a year of partnership doesn't match 10 years of direct data feedback.

Turn 10 got direct data from Pirelli tires. It doesn't matter how long their partnership has been. In an under the hood article, it says "real-world data directly and without any fix-up from us at all.".

 

[Luminis]

What KY can give is direct feedback to programmers about the right set-up for the physics and car behaviour, something that Dan Greenwalt cannot claim because he is a creative director, not a game designer.

And he can do so better than, dunno, say, a professional ALMS driver, who's got a bit more experience with racing than Kazunori? Is that what you're saying? That Kazunori, who's done a few races, has more experience with racing cars than someone who's actually making a living off of that because he, you know, excels at racing cars?

Thousands of hours of experience, feedback and data analysis can be compared to no more than a 100 hours of feedback, that is what you people are trying to compare here, apparently.

Wiikipedia lists exactly four races for him: One at Thunderhill, three at the 24 hours of the Nürburgring. Compare that to someone who's raced in multiple ALMS seasons. Who's going to have more experience?

Also, you seemingly decided to completely ignore my previous point: How did Kazunoris 'vast experience' with racing improve GT5? I don't see any sort of improvement which I would aattribute to racing experience. So, please, enlightend me, would you?

Pirelli does not give enough data, just like I say before, a year of partnership doesn't match 10 years of direct data feedback.

Most computers are able to create, transfer and access data faster and with less interpretation and opinion than Kazunori could, though. A year worth of actual data on the tyre's physics is completely different from Kazunori's opinion on how a car should feel.

 

[Akira AC]

Luminis brings up the point that got erased from my post after being logged out which I forgot to replace. Racing experience (by the big wigs) barely means anything unless it's to do with physics/feel and that's what testers are for. You wouldn't need to actually have a racing license to improve that aspect of the game, just a passion for the sport and the willingness to translate that via research and application.

And No I don't remember seeing that kind of testing for GT5, I heard talk (of PD testing) but can't remember any notable names being mentioned (not to say that they weren't). Surely somebody here will be able to find something though won't they?

>Red Bull(Adrian Newey)
>Sebastian Vettel
>Sebastien Loeb

They all gave feedback, and GTR development were also part of a joint venture between PD and Nissan, KY giving his own feedback from N-24 was also part of the feedback and they are taking track day data since GT4 days.

If racing experience doesn't matter then why are you posting that feedback by a real racing driver then?

And I'm sorry, but an F1 driver has way more experience than a ALMS driver.

 

[Luminis]

If racing experience doesn't matter then why are you posting that feedback by a real racing driver then?

Because you keep bragging about it, as if GT5 was the only game that got input from someone who knows how a car feels on a track.

So, instead of just telling you that I can't see how it matters, I'll tell FM3/4 have indeed been getting feedback by experienced people and I can't see any improvement in GT5 whatsoever that relates to a race driver's experience.

God, I have a hard time believing I'm trying to have semi-rational debate with you, when I know fully well you'll just be ignoring half of what I'm writing and resort to trollish remarks like the one I quoted.

And I'm sorry, but an F1 driver has way more experience than a ALMS driver.

Hey, yeah, let's ask Sebastian Vettel how an LMPC car feels, shall we? I bet Sebastian Vettel also has more experience at touge than Keiichi Tsuchiya, because F1 DRIVER LOL....

 

[Akira AC]

Because you keep bragging about it, as if GT5 was the only game that got input from someone who knows how a car feels on a track.

So, instead of just telling you that I can't see how it matters, I'll tell FM3/4 have indeed been getting feedback by experienced people and I can't see any improvement in GT5 whatsoever that relates to a race driver's experience.

Well I just know that by information given by plenty people(including you) GT5 delivers a better driving experience. I just don't see that kind of feedback on other racing games that claim to be based on real live readings, I don't know how a car feels but I've seen and I know when a car understeers, oversteers and the driving dynamics work, I don't see the FM suspension model to be matched with the GT suspension model, and the discussion suggest that is just FM vs GT, so I'm just speaking on terms of FM vs GT disregarding any PC/other titles racing games and simulators.

God, I have a hard time believing I'm trying to have semi-rational debate with you, when I know fully well you'll just be ignoring half of what I'm writing and resort to trollish remarks like the one I quoted.

Trollish remarks are consider as arguing a point?(refers to first page)

Hey, yeah, let's ask Sebastian Vettel how an LMPC car feels, shall we? I bet Sebastian Vettel also has more experience at touge than Keiichi Tsuchiya, because F1 DRIVER LOL....

I bet you can recreate Rally on Forza(*oh snap*)

 

[James1436]

Well I just know that by information given by plenty people(including you) GT5 delivers a better driving experience. I just don't see that kind of feedback on other racing games that claim to be based on real live readings, I don't know how a car feels but I've seen and I know when a car understeers, oversteers and the driving dynamics work, I don't see the FM suspension model to be matched with the GT suspension model, and the discussion suggest that is just FM vs GT, so I'm just speaking on terms of FM vs GT disregarding any PC/other titles racing games and simulators.

"I don't see the FM suspension model to be matched with the GT suspension model"
Well I can't see since there is no type of suspension telemetry in Gt5.

 

[Akira AC]

"I don't see the FM suspension model to be matched with the GT suspension model"
Well I can't see since there is no type of suspension telemetry in Gt5.

There is no telemetry but there are physics, is hard to notice when people who plays FM get used to see the chassis hardly moving.

 

[James1436]

There is no telemetry but there are physics, is hard to notice when people who plays FM get used to see the chassis hardly moving.

It doesn't show much chassis movement on the car, but in the telemetry one can see the chassis struggling.

 

[I'm Motarded]

>Red Bull (Adrian Newey)
>Sebastian Vettel
>Sebastien Loeb

They all gave feedback, and GTR development were also part of a joint venture between PD and Nissan, KY giving his own feedback from N-24 was also part of the feedback and they are taking track day data since GT4 days.

I don't believe Nissan wouldn't give fudged data to make their cars seem better than they are. I don't trust any of these companies where money (potential car sales) and credibility is involved. Possibilities of PD palms being greased as well as National loyalty taking hold screams out to me.

Red bull (the company) probably has the worst marketing ethics in history, anything they do is a publicity stunt (photo mode location). I respect Adrian Newey, so I don't doubt his credibility, but I doubt he had any input in the game past the X1

Loeb, well he was wearing red bull clothing when I saw him on what looked like a publicity event rather than a proper test day.

If racing experience doesn't matter then why are you posting that feedback by a real racing driver then?

I didn't say racing experience doesn't matter, I said unless it's to do with feel/physics it doesn't really have much else in the way of relevance in making the game more racing orientated, nothing that can't be researched anyway.

And I'm sorry, but an F1 driver has way more experience than a ALMS driver.

How so? If you were talking about an F1 veteran I could agree, but the Alms driver in question has two years more seat time in pro racing than Vettel.

 

[Spagetti69]

I gotta laugh at Akira winding you all up lol.

Haven't you all learnt.

 

[Luminis]

Well I just know that by information given by plenty people(including you) GT5 delivers a better driving experience.

Driving experience, exactly. You don't need to have actual care experience to give feedback to a driving experience. The racing experience, though, seems pretty, well, poor in GT. Even Shift 2 does it better than GT5, as does Forza.

I bet you can recreate Rally on Forza(*oh snap*)

Wasn't it you who claimed FM3 featured rally because of a certain track called 'Rally di Positano' and that it was a big fault that FM4 wasn't going to feature that? Oh snap indeed.

I gotta laugh at Akira winding you all up lol.

Haven't you all learnt.

And you're doing rightfully so, it is indeed hard to fathom that we're still bothering.

 

[I'm Motarded]

I gotta laugh at Akira winding you all up lol.

Haven't you all learnt.

Once bitten, twice shy.

I need a tetanus.. Stat

 

[VXR]

LOL at the thought of a 1-year games partnership cancels out lord knows how many decades of making some of the world's most renowned tyres.