FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[tribolik]

I bet you can recreate Rally on Forza(*oh snap*)

In GT5 rally part of the game I allways feel like driving on Ice (regardless of the shaking gimmick FFB)

 

[TT3AZ]

Well, no doubt physics are great in gt5, the biggest lack of gt5 is that most wanted features was left out, and features that existed in previous games was cut out. Really freaking wierd. Specially drag racing, how did they miss that...

 

[JJ72]

Wait wait wait suddenly Kaz is a professional racing driver?

"Professional" means he can rely on race driving solely for a career, where people either pay him to race or he has personal sponsor backings, in return of certain performance clauses.

What Kaz has done so far is not unlike most of the wealthy amateur racers, buy the service of a professional outfit and do some events occasionally, which doesn't really matter if he win or loses.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Pirelli does not give enough data, just like I say before, a year of partnership doesn't match 10 years of direct data feedback.

No. Just no. You can't actually believe one man, who occasionally races, can provide more data than a company that has entire decades of data stored. As Luminis already asked - what proof is there that Kaz' racing "pedigree" positively influences GT? I'm curious too.

...and they are taking track day data since GT4 days.

(Citation needed)

And I'm sorry, but an F1 driver has way more experience than a ALMS driver.

Yep, that Walter Röhrl is such an amateur. See where this line of reasoning takes us?

I bet you can recreate Rally on Forza(*oh snap*)

Tell me again why you're here if it isn't attempts at flame-baiting. I'll wait.

 

[Vaxxtx]

Wait wait wait suddenly Kaz is a professional racing driver?

"Professional" means he can rely on race driving solely for a career, where people either pay him to race or he has personal sponsor backings, in return of certain performance clauses.

What Kaz has done so far is not unlike most of the wealthy amateur racers, buy the service of a professional outfit and do some events occasionally, which doesn't really matter if he win or loses.

Like the FIA GT3 "Gentleman Drivers". Everything from wealthy business folks, to royalty race in those.

Your points are very valid.

 

[t.o.]

And I'm sorry, but an F1 driver has way more experience than a ALMS driver.

I'm rolling on the floor laughing my ass off this so wrong. And I mean wrong on many facets and levels that I don't have enough aspirin for the finger pain I would incur typing it. Really man?

 

[NLxAROSA]

I don't see the FM suspension model to be matched with the GT suspension model

For FMs sake, I certainly don't hope so. There are plenty of games out there that do a lot better at modeling suspension than GT (which is rather simplified for a simulator). And no, I'm not referring to PC sims. Even games that are considered 'arcade' by GT enthusiasts have better suspension modeling. So where does that put GT?

(And no: I'm not calling GT an arcade game)

 

[Spagetti69]

I would have to go with Akira on that one.

The suspension in GT is fantastic.

Not knowing when updates are coming.
Not knowing any if any DLC is coming.
Not knowing what physics are going to do online
Not knowing if I will even connect online.
Not knowing what suits are coming next.

I could go on but I'll give it a rest.

No other game comes close to GT for suspension.

 

[Terronium-12]

Not sure if sarcastic or serious.

 

[Spagetti69]

Not sure if sarcastic or serious.

He shoots, he scores.

 

[Akira AC]

This should be interesting:

No. Just no. You can't actually believe one man, who occasionally races, can provide more data than a company that has entire decades of data stored. As Luminis already asked - what proof is there that Kaz' racing "pedigree" positively influences GT? I'm curious too.

Actually there is a good reason for that, taking part in a race like the 24 Hours of Nurburgring is not something for someone who occasionally races. Taking part in endurance races provides information about the car and how it drives in different conditions, proving information on how the environment looks from inside the car while the time change takes place is also a critical part, because thanks to that there are time changes. Knowing how the car feels during weather changes and the different level of grip that might exist is also a critical part of GT5, without that there would not be weather changes either.

In GT's case, I don't think that following the same trends that has followed during the last 12-14 years(prior to post GT5 development) is actually the best for GT, now the engine has been coded to be capable of simulating variable conditions and that is something that is occasionally overlook in this discussion, and it would be bad for T10 to don't provide a excellent quality for such limited game(compared to what the GT5's game engine can do), having said that I do believe that expanding on features instead of content is actually more critical for current and next gen games(is like comparing BF series to COD series, one do not need to expand too much in its content but it does extent in its features, and there is where COD stars to fall behind).

(Citation needed)

Granted(and there are more videos there too):

Source

Yep, that Walter Röhrl is such an amateur. See where this line of reasoning takes us?

Funny, I never state that Walter Röhrl was an amateur, which is not the line of reasoning, however I do believe that collecting data from a WRC champion and a F1 driving champion is actually more valuable.

Tell me again why you're here if it isn't attempts at flame-baiting. I'll wait.

Considering this:

God, I have a hard time believing I'm trying to have semi-rational debate with you, when I know fully well you'll just be ignoring half of what I'm writing and resort to trollish remarks like the one I quoted.


Hey, yeah, let's ask Sebastian Vettel how an LMPC car feels, shall we? I bet Sebastian Vettel also has more experience at touge than Keiichi Tsuchiya, because F1 DRIVER LOL....

That's bit hypocritical, first post states that the term "troll" is prohibited, yet somehow he is allowed to do so, and not being called for it is what makes it hypocritical, responding to his remarks is actually normal, but you got a point, I shouldn't have followed the immaturity and not reply to his remarks.

 

[Luminis]

Actually there is a good reason for that, taking part in a race like the 24 Hours of Nurburgring is not something for someone who occasionally races. Taking part in endurance races provides information about the car and how it drives in different conditions, proving information on how the environment looks from inside the car while the time change takes place is also a critical part, because thanks to that there are time changes. Knowing how the car feels during weather changes and the different level of grip that might exist is also a critical part of GT5, without that there would not be weather changes either.

So, the only reason that GT5 has weather and night and Forza doesn't is because Kazunori raced in a few 24H events? Because that feedback couldn't be provided, by, say, ALMS drivers?
Is that what you're trying to say? I mean, really?

Funny, I never state that Walter Röhrl was an amateur, which is not the line of reasoning, however I do believe that collecting data from a WRC champion and a F1 driving champion is actually more valuable.

Achievements =!= Experience. Just saying.

Oh, and going by that logic, shouldn't Kazunori's experience be completely irrelevant?

That's bit hypocritical, first post states that the term "troll" is prohibited, yet somehow he is allowed to do so, and not being called for it is what makes it hypocritical, responding to his remarks is actually normal, but you got a point, I shouldn't have followed the immaturity and not reply to his remarks.

And the AUP states that you shouldn't be posting false information, which you haven't been called out for by a moderator.

Plus, as Slip said, your comments are indeed pretty inflammatory quite often... Aside from that, I didn't call you a troll, I said the remark you quoted was trollish, which, in my opinion, it indeed was. Big difference there.

 

[James1436]

This should be interesting:



Actually there is a good reason for that, taking part in a race like the 24 Hours of Nurburgring is not something for someone who occasionally races. Taking part in endurance races provides information about the car and how it drives in different conditions, proving information on how the environment looks from inside the car while the time change takes place is also a critical part, because thanks to that there are time changes. Knowing how the car feels during weather changes and the different level of grip that might exist is also a critical part of GT5, without that there would not be weather changes either.

Turn10 have stated that one reason they did not include weather is because they didn't have the time to gather tire information from Pirelli to accurately include weather.You are saying is that GT5's weather physics were built upon suggestions and opinions.

I would rather not have racing simulators built on suggestions or opinions. Its like asking, would you have rather have a ingame track built on race car drivers suggestions and opinions, or with laser scanning and precision?

 

[cuco33]

I don't know why you guys bother with akira. He's repeatedly lied in this thread alone and its clear he's never tried a forza game, probably not even an xbox. Some of his comments are funny though

 

[Spagetti69]

I've asked him is he going to buy Forza.

He should pony up the answer. 8^)

 

[Akira AC]

I don't know why you guys bother with akira. Its clear he's never tried a forza game, probably not even an xbox.

I have played all Forza games(some people who has played previous version of the game can assure that based on my opinion) since FM1, but the quality of each game has been decreased from game to game(ask someone who has played previous FM games).

I've asked him is he going to buy Forza.

He should pony up the answer. 8^)

*Tempting*

And actually I will, having both 360 and PS3, being a fan of racing games in both platforms makes me think that I should, specially with the retarded driving aid gone the game should be back to its good FM2 challenging games(although I need to verify this), I just regret of having bought FM3.

I do believe that people should address the game flaws before T10 keep doing them, negating such flaws or outright deflecting them is something that should stop, lack of new content(specially tracks) and weird lack of attention to wheel support is something that should be address to T10 along with some other things.

 

[t.o.]

I have played all Forza games(some people who has played previous version of the game can assure that based on my opinion) since FM1, but the quality of each game has been decreased from game to game(ask someone who has played previous FM games).

 

[Akira AC]

*pic*

For example, there was a truly memorable endurance race held in FM1, you have to play in Laguna seca with the 1970's(fixed because I haven't play the game in years) Ford GT vs the Ferrari P4, the interesting thing about that race was that the Ferrari was obviously faster than you(not F1 joke intended) and you had to play with a good pitting strategy to win, the track is complicated, the AI made mistakes and the racing was based on consistency, with the option of taking the driving aids of the Ford felt more challenging and the whole race felt more rewarding once you win it. That race was never to be seen again, and the madness of having LMP prototypes racing on Fujimi Kaido was also removed which kind of sucks.

Blue mountains circuit with the Alpine course really did fit the game and the races that were included into them, basically the Pacific Docks serve as Fast and Furious resemblance with nice races held on it(with muscle cars and "tuners" cars) and the Tokyo track was visually outstanding with a really nice layout(I have to say better than the GT's version).

Those are the kind of things that are been gradually taken out of FM series and no one seems to care, they now withdrawing Rally di Positano and god knows if they will withdraw the Fujimi Kaido for the next game, races and events were better planned and the career mode used to offer pretty interesting races, now it doesn't and makes the game kind of suck compared to its pre predecessors.

This is what I want to point out, the game used to be and had the potential to be way better than what it is, and people just deny that fact by justifying FM3 instead of considering the things that were done prior to that game.

 

[SFX Frankkkk]

For example, there was a truly memorable endurance race held in FM1, you have to play in Laguna seca with the 1960's Ford GT vs the Ferrari P4, the interesting thing about that race was that the Ferrari was obviously faster than you(not F1 joke intended) and you had to play with a good pitting strategy to win, the track is complicated, the AI made mistakes and the racing was based on consistency, with the option of taking the driving aids of the Ford felt more challenging and the whole race felt more rewarding once you win it. That race was never to be seen again, and the madness of having LMP prototypes racing on Fujimi Kaido was also removed which kind of sucks.

Are you sure you've played Forza 1? Specifically, that race event did not exist in Forza 1. The closest event you got to that was this...

Classic Sports Car Event (Level 35)
Open to unmodified cars made prior to 1975. First place receives the
Ferrari 330 P4.
1 Race:
-Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca (2.24 Miles) (22 Laps)
Total Miles - 49.28 Miles
Prize Car - 1967 Ferrari 330 P4

Laguna Seca has featured in all three Forza variants thus car, so if you wanted to recreate that experience then you have the option to create a private race in Multiplayer. And as for the LMPs, there is an event in Forza 3 which lets you race LMPs around the whole Fujimi track for a lap. So no, these races have not been removed from Forza. You either haven't played Forza long enough to realise so, or you haven't played Forza at all and you're just doing what you've been doing in this thread.. and that is stating things that aren't true.

Have you read the "Under the Hood" articles on the FM website? Dan Greenawalt mentioned how maintaining a constant framerate with minimal to no tear was one of his top priorities with Forza. Let me just quote this from the man himself in case you're going to call my BS..

However, we take frame rate pretty seriously—we believe that having a solid 60 frames per second (FPS) experience with no tearing is very important for a simulation racing game.

This would explain why Tokyo and Pacific Shipyards are not going to make an appearance in Forza for now;

As we found on the original Forza Motorsport, having multiple headlight projections with multiple cast shadows is computationally heavy—even using clever tricks like we did on the less powerful original Xbox platform. This makes delivering a strong night racing experience very difficult at 60 FPS without significant compromise.

Of course, you could just say "why don't they just change the time of day instead?" but then that would kind of kill the experience as IMO, without the heavy street lights and dark environments present in both tracks, they wouldn't feel the same for me.

Fujimi Kaido was just confirmed for Forza 4;

http://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/Tracks/Detail.aspx?id=2147483845

And LOL, with the events and races, that's just what you think. FM3 still has similar event classifications as the previous Forza games. Manufacturer races, Amateur events, Point to Point races, Endurance races, Championships (via Season play mode) etc. Fair enough, maybe some features in FM3 are lacking compared to the previous two games (exhaust changes, regions, multiplayer to name a few). But well with you, akira, all you've done is bash and heckle FM3 in this thread and provided false information. That's why in your opinion, people are "denying the fact that Forza has the potential to be better than it is." Um can you provide me an example of someone who's said that Forza is perfect? LOL I'm sorry but no game in this industry is perfect. Every game has it's flaws. People are going to complain about how one little thing annoys them. It just turns out that people seem to be more annoyed about some aspects of GT5 than Forza, unfortunately for you.

 

[Astro-Racer]

Kind of ironic that the most die-hard fans of Forza I have ever seen, are on a Gran Turismo website lol. It's a funny old world

Although it does bring up the point that dedicated Forza websites have very few active posters, for some reason (Even the official forum is a bit barren, compared to most).

 

[Akira AC]

Laguna Seca has featured in all three Forza variants thus car, so if you wanted to recreate that experience then you have the option to create a private race in Multiplayer.

Interesting, you have to pay gold services to play a simple race.

Of course, you could just say "why don't they just change the time of day instead?" but then that would kind of kill the experience as IMO, without the heavy street lights and dark environments present in both tracks, they wouldn't feel the same for me.

Because they could build upon those environments and conditions, they did that back and the day and now they cant(?), which means that they got worst at coding(while almost all racing games on Xbox feature night racing tracks).


And I will restrain myself from quoting the rest because it just profs my point, this kind of posts just evidences that this discussion cannot be taken either objectively or seriously, which I believe it has been the case since its creation.

 

[SFX Frankkkk]

Interesting, you have to pay gold services to play a simple race.

Or you could simply go in Quick Play mode.

Because they could build upon those environments and conditions, they did that back and the day and now they cant(?), which means that they got worst at coding(while almost all racing games on Xbox feature night racing tracks).

LOL. Clearly you haven't read the Under the Hood article, and clearly you have not read the sentences that I've quoted. "They got worse at coding because they can't build upon environments and conditions for night racing." ... Right. Please click here and read this article for Pete's sake.

And I will restrain myself from quoting the rest because it just profs my point, this kind of posts just evidences that this discussion cannot be taken either objectively or seriously, which I believe it has been the case since its creation.

No, it's because posts like mine (not to be arrogant) argue cases proficiently and back statements up with proper proof, while posts like yours..... are not worth wasting time on.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Kind of ironic that the most die-hard fans of Forza I have ever seen, are on a Gran Turismo website lol. It's a funny old world

I think it just shows that there are a lot of people here that are not blindingly following one franchise. Or they are simply nuts who buy every game with cars in it (like myself). And in case anyone hasn't tried it yet: it is entirely possible to enjoy more than one game.

 

[JDMKING13]

I think it just shows that there are a lot of people here that are not blindingly following one franchise. Or they are simply nuts who buy every game with cars in it (like myself). And in case anyone hasn't tried it yet: it is entirely possible to enjoy more than one game.

Nah I think GTP is just that good as a forum. 👍

 

[zr1chris]

Nah I think GTP is just that good as a forum. 👍

Agreed but it's a combination between the community and mods that make it that way.

 

[SuperShouden]

Dan briefly mentions his track day experiences and how they compare to the rally school they had just attended as a team, also included is a re-cap of Christian Guirguis' experience at the 24 Hours of Lemons and what you can take from the track to the game and back again.
and to a lesser extent
Earlier this year, Turn 10’s Reed Knetzger took a trip that many Forza fans have dreamt about: a driving tour of the famous Nürburgring Nordschleife
I'm sure I could dig deeper into the archive and find more instances of the team going racing, but I'm lazy.

Gunnar jeanette (of ALMS) has been a involved as a tester for FM since at least FM3, the last I read about it he put in two consecutive eight hour stints on this rig

Interesting, comparing track days experience vs a real racing driver career(specially when the person who codes the game also runs 24h Nurburgring), that argument really holds nicely.

This.

Kaz isn't the only one on the PD team that has racing experience, either. Heck Tourist Trophy was created because one of the PD team is a bike racer. And really, if I wanted to create a racing simulator, I'd hire a bunch of race car drivers and people like the British Top Gear boys...people who have YEARS of experience driving cars. Because they know how a car is supposed to feel, they know how a track is supposed to feel. GT4 was close, but the cars had a nasty bit of understeer which was annoying. With GT5, at least the cars behave more correctly.

And you can't learn anything from success. An occasional failure here and there gives you lessons to lead you to success. I have full confidence that GT6 will be better and GT7 will be better. And on the other side of the canyon, FM4 will be better than GT5. And if they don't muck it up, FM5 will be better than GT6 and so on.

Turn10 has a deep respect of PD and visa versa, I think. And comments like "we don't do exclusive licenses anymore because we want to see and drive those cars in every racing game" I think show their respect for other racing titles. And T10 has learned a lot from PD and their mistakes. And I hope PD does the same. I hope they're watching FM4. Heck, we know they played FM3.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Actually there is a good reason for that, taking part in a race like the 24 Hours of Nurburgring is not something for someone who occasionally races.

How often does Kaz race again?

Taking part in endurance races provides information about the car and how it drives in different conditions, proving information on how the environment looks from inside the car while the time change takes place is also a critical part, because thanks to that there are time changes. Knowing how the car feels during weather changes and the different level of grip that might exist is also a critical part of GT5, without that there would not be weather changes either.

...and only Kaz, again an occasional racer, could provide this data?

...and it would be bad for T10 to don't provide a excellent quality for such limited game(compared to what the GT5's game engine can do).

I've yet to see any proofs of T10's game engine being limited compared to GT's. This isn't about rallying/nascar/F1, either, I mean strictly the game engine, and what sorts of parameters it's calculating. Forza already has a much more detailed tire model, but until we got solid figures from both companies about what exactly is simulated and what isn't, there's no way of knowing one way or the other.

Granted(and there are more videos there too):

Source

*snip*

That's well and good that they take data from track-days (though it's still unknown exactly how much that effects the games, which was my point), but colour me unsurprised that a member of PD says a car he bought in real-life felt "identical" to the game. Nevermind that GT4's physics were, well, lacking.

Funny, I never state that Walter Röhrl was an amateur, which is not the line of reasoning, however I do believe that collecting data from a WRC champion and a F1 driving champion is actually more valuable.

So which is it, those are more valuable, or collecting data from one amateur racer is? I'll remind you that you said this:

And I'm sorry, but an F1 driver has way more experience than a ALMS driver.

Which, again, by that logic makes Kaz' input and experiences near-useless. I bring up Röhrl because he's not an F1 driver - so I guess he has way less experience, and wouldn't be of much use.

Another interesting bit, going slightly off-topic, as it's about Shift2:

Click this link right here

The team had quite a few pros pop into make suggestions based on personal "feel". Shift2's physics have been slammed by various parties. It's certainly not out of line to think that a drivers opinions could very well be inconclusive, as they're opinions, not facts. Using hard numbers for things like the Pirelli data for tires in FM4 means much less chance of bias or preference making their way into the engine. Look at GT4's utterly terrible FF launches, where nearly every front-driver couldn't get close to it's stated 0-60mph times.

That's bit hypocritical, first post states that the term "troll" is prohibited, yet somehow he is allowed to do so, and not being called for it is what makes it hypocritical, responding to his remarks is actually normal, but you got a point, I shouldn't have followed the immaturity and not reply to his remarks.

The term "troll" isn't prohibited:

• Accusations of 'Troll' simply because you don't like what someone says are also out

If you want to contrast and compare the two games, that's great; that's what the discussion is for. When you say nothing past this:

I bet you can recreate Rally on Forza(*oh snap*)

Or this:

Interesting, you have to pay gold services to play a simple race.

Or this:

which means that they got worst at coding(while almost all racing games on Xbox feature night racing tracks).

...it's mighty apparent you have no goal past winding people up. I could dig further, for the CGI comments or a myriad other ones, but I won't. Want a better example? Take those three baiting comments up above, and change them to "I bet you can recreate liveries in GT (*oh snap*)", "Interesting, you have to have an online connection just to change the time of day and the weather", and "which means they got worst at coding(while almost all racing games on PS3 feature liveries". Post any of those in the GT section and it's flame-bait. It's no different here. But speaking of worse at coding; PD had fully functioning records for every race series in GT1, even keeping qualifying separate for its own records. It also had a proper, functioning gear chart. On the topic at hand, about FM4's lack of weather, I'll quote from the link SFX Frank provided:

If we cut down on the number of cars on track, used original Xbox-generation car models, dropped to 30 FPS, or (and this would be the most effective solution) built specific tracks from the ground-up to have less detail and thus extra performance headroom, then night racing and/or weather conditions may have been possible. Some of those trade-offs, we just were not willing to do. Others would require time that we used to develop other features in the game—specifically, the new graphical look of the game in general. Night and weather are features we will continue to evaluate as the franchise continues. We’re waiting for the right time to deliver these features to our fans.

Don't get me wrong, it's very disappointing that we won't see the time-of-day changes in FM4, or weather, because they are done well in GT5 (well, ToD, yes, weather is still iffy in my opinion). But GT suffers a lot of hiccups if you run at say Le Sarthe with T/W Change on, so part of me understands T10's reluctance. I'd rather the entire game be to one uniform standard of quality than have the dips and peaks GT5 has.

this discussion cannot be taken either objectively or seriously, which I believe it has been the case since its creation.

Start being serious, and you'll find people will take you seriously.

 

[I'm Motarded]

This.

Kaz isn't the only one on the PD team that has racing experience, either. Heck Tourist Trophy was created because one of the PD team is a bike racer. And really, if I wanted to create a racing simulator, I'd hire a bunch of race car drivers and people like the British Top Gear boys...people who have YEARS of experience driving cars. Because they know how a car is supposed to feel, they know how a track is supposed to feel. GT4 was close, but the cars had a nasty bit of understeer which was annoying. With GT5, at least the cars behave more correctly.

You and Akira can quote that post I made as much as you like and then subsequently skip over the fact it was trying to make 1000 times... I really couldn't care. You said..

And Turn10's already mentioned that no one on their team has any racing experience. I think Dan mentioned it again not too long ago.

So I provided a link that proves Christian Guirguis (a member of the T10 team) has serious racing experience, yet you both ignore that and focus on Dan's experience. Provide me with a link when Dan say's nobody on the T10 team has racing experience? And again, Kaz's experience hardly means a thing if your employed testers can provide the exact same data and input he can and the coders can implement it into the game.

Personally I think Kaz's racing hobby was actually a detriment to GT5 and should he have spent less time doing race preparation and more time project managing, GT5 would have been a better game, i.e maybe he should have demoted himself to "tester" status and let somebody else project manage. But that's just my opinion and not fact.

 

[McLaren]

Actually there is a good reason for that, taking part in a race like the 24 Hours of Nurburgring is not something for someone who occasionally races.

You obviously have no clue (again) what you're talking about.

The majority of the people who run in the 24 Hours of Nurburgring are people who only race on occasion, or better known as amateurs. Why? Because that's what the race is targeted towards. You're even more clueless if you actually believe anywhere near half of the 800 people who participate are even close to professional drivers. It was made this way to make the race more interesting, which is why the field is varied from road cars to sports cars to fully built race cars.

The cost of entering the race only runs around $10,000 which is change to professional motorsport teams & says a lot as well about who's entering this race. Well, that & the fact that the only professional teams in the race are also the only ones who win it every year (Schnizter & Manthey).

 

[cuco33]

I have played all Forza games(some people who has played previous version of the game can assure that based on my opinion) since FM1, but the quality of each game has been decreased from game to game(ask someone who has played previous FM games).

Sorry but if you played Forza games as you say then you wouldn't be caught lieing about them on numerous occasions, now would you?

And the quality hasn't gone down with each iteration. It's gone up with more cars, tracks and features. And I've owned every Forza and GT game to date, sans Prologue.