FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

  • Thread starter Scaff
  • 8,743 comments
  • 617,665 views
What does it make them to have such a little workforce in the first place? I mean, it's no heroic deed to fight an uphill battle if you brought that situation upon yourself.

Given the massive sales of the Gran Turismo series over the years you would think reinvesting some of the proceeds into expanding the team would be a number one priority. That's what I don't understand about PD.

It's just a fact in the games industry that, as consoles and games become more complex, AAA titles require increasingly larger teams to develop them. At least if you want to deliver the game in a more conventional two/three year time-frame, that is.

GT5 was far too ambitious given PD's resources. Either expand to deal with it, or trim-back on the content/features to fit the team you have.
 
Okey, here is the link that can put some things into perspective regarding some points raised.

Follow the link, and than click Super Special The Real Grand Tour gallery.

Speaking of dedication and so on. While in the other world some other "more dedicated" personas can't even make their shaders to look like a damn metal.

Of course, you're also free to click all other galleries made by Abraxas and his amazing Polish friends.

But nevermind, thank God for people with dedication of Polyphony Digital, I'd always take them in front of every other game/title/series/franchise in the whole genre.

I never thought I'd get to do this, but... "Amar, that's a repost" ;)

Some of the work in the Photomode section truly is amazing, I won't argue that. Though much of that will be possible in FM4 as well (just on tracks as opposed to Photo Travel-style locations). I did some magazine layouts almost identical to Evo magazine, but the great thing about those is you can use any game for them.

Not sure how the Hummer is related to GT's merged-car pit glitch, however :)
 
And this is the reason why I take pretty much all you say with a huge pinch of salt. If that isn't a perfect description of the word we are not allowed to say I don't know what is.

You can call me a fanboy Slim, but I am really very old to be called like that.

You know me from this forum, you probably know that I play all racing games out there and at the first place I am an automotive lover, not video-gamer.

I said "always" because no other company really take some things at level as PD does. I have a great personal list of shortcomings of GT5 that I am aware of - after all, I play racing games for more than a 20 years now, I grew up with them and my collection of both consoles and games showcases the genre for the past 2 decades - but when we speak about dedication, this gallery clearly showcases what dedication is.

My "always" is not fanboyism, it is only just a admiring of accomplishment that no other virtual recreation of automotive industry can match on the same scale. In my book at least. I would be very happy that someone can match work done by PD is various departments of their work, but it is still not happening.

That is the reason I said "always". After all, we're discussing personal and subjective opinions here. There is no measure to objectively quantify any achievement because it all comes down to subjective opinion.

And I really didn't present my opinion as a fact - that many people do here - I just said that I find overall work done by PD so good in what they do that I would take them always in front of any other developer or franchise. And I used this particular example as way to contextualize a word "dedication" that has been thrown around this thread in last dozen pages.

Nothing more.


Not sure how the Hummer is related to GT's merged-car pit glitch, however :)

It says "clearnance" :) I mean, only 25 cars to proof-read, for the most advertised feature of the new game. It is funny :)
 
You can call me a fanboy Slim, but I am really very old to be called like that.

You know me from this forum, you probably know that I play all racing games out there and at the first place I am an automotive lover, not video-gamer.

I said "always" because no other company really take some things at level as PD does. I have a great personal list of shortcomings of GT5 that I am aware of - after all, I play racing games for more than a 20 years now, I grew up with them and my collection of both consoles and games showcases the genre for the past 2 decades - but when we speak about dedication, this gallery clearly showcases what dedication is.

My "always" is not fanboyism, it is only just a admiring of accomplishment that no other virtual recreation of automotive industry can match on the same scale. In my book at least. I would be very happy that someone can match work done by PD is various departments of their work, but it is still not happening.

That is the reason I said "always". After all, we're discussing personal and subjective opinions here. There is no measure to objectively quantify any achievement because it all comes down to subjective opinion.

And I really didn't present my opinion as a fact - that many people do here - I just said that I find overall work done by PD so good in what they do that I would take them always in front of any other developer or franchise. And I used this particular example as way to contextualize a word "dedication" that has been thrown around this thread in last dozen pages.

Nothing more.




It says "clearnance" :) I mean, only 25 cars to proof-read, for the most advertised feature of the new game. It is funny :)

I've been playing computer games for 30 years and I would never use the word always in that way. I've seen game studios come and go, be brilliant then decline, start out bad and improve dramatically. By saying always you are effectively saying that if PD made a new game and you opened the box to be greeted by a big steaming dog turd, they would still in your eyes be best. PD were head and shoulders above anyone when it came to racing games, no one could touch them. That simply isn't true anymore they have fallen behind other developers now in some areas, and not just T10. It's simply impossible to say always because you never know what the future will bring. Playing GT 1, 2 & 3 I would never have expected to be sat here now and preferring a different racing game over GT, but that is exactly where I find myself.
 
It says "clearnance" :) I mean, only 25 cars to proof-read, for the most advertised feature of the new game. It is funny :)

Ah, well then, fair point, though I would've used that in response to a screen shot of the many spelling errors in GT, instead of the very strange merged-car glitch, instead ;).

Of course, the great thing about this generation of games, regardless if it's GT or FM, is that they can always be told about this issue and fix it. It's not going to be the "98.62%" problem of GT2, for example 👍
 
The 18" Ground ClearNance

LOL.. they need better proof readers...
Didn't notice that :lol:

Nice catch 👍

Edit :
My "always" is not fanboyism, it is only just a admiring of accomplishment that no other virtual recreation of automotive industry can match on the same scale. In my book at least. I would be very happy that someone can match work done by PD is various departments of their work, but it is still not happening.
One can hardly disagree about that.

But when such accomplishment come to be detrimental to the actual game, I can't help but feel a little ... I dunno ... somewhat cheated. And I think many of us feel that way.

And this dedication you speak about didn't prevent them to allow ROM upgrades on all cars (including, you know, WW2 era cars), among other inaccuracies.
 
Last edited:
It dosent matter that Autovista only has 25 cars in it because all the cars are leveled the same. Autovista just looks better in photomode and shows extra details like trunks and engine spaces.

All the cars look amazing when it comes to driving meaning the cockpit is amazing, the body and details are amazing.

So to compare 25 Autovistas to 200 "premium" is not really fair because Turn 10 put more detail, unless there is a hidden mode in GT5 that shows me the engine, and every other little detail?

And then there is standards, which don't exist in FM because every car is premium.
 
marchi
Funny, I seem to be able to customize every car in the game quite easily. There are also leader boards for events...

Really? You need to stop lying. There are 800 cars that you can't even put wheels on.
 
It dosent matter that Autovista only has 25 cars in it because all the cars are leveled the same. Autovista just looks better in photomode and shows extra details like trunks and engine spaces.

All the cars look amazing when it comes to driving meaning the cockpit is amazing, the body and details are amazing.

So to compare 25 Autovistas to 200 "premium" is not really fair because Turn 10 put more detail, unless there is a hidden mode in GT5 that shows me the engine, and every other little detail?

And then there is standards, which don't exist in FM because every car is premium.

I really don't care for Autovista, all you can do is look and take pictures of the car, Its not like we can race them. The premiums are actually cars we can race while still maintaining the great detail.
 
Daverytimes
You missed his point, zr1 was accusing PD of holding back content but he overlooked the balant "holding back of content" that turn 10 was scheming. Every content we have recieved for GT5 were FREE and the reason we will pay double for any new DLC is because they actually worked hard on it AFTER the game released. Unlike the Majority of developers PD still have some sanity in them and i wholeheartedly applaud them.

I never said PD held back content. You need to pay attention. I said PD's game was incomplete as in they were not finished with it.
 
The old lots of Japanese cars is a fair point, there is to many of the same car... Some of the standards look pretty damn good, while some of them look like total arse.

But if PD would have done like some devs and just said screw it and left the bugs in there then that would be a cause to complain... but actually working on it shows commitment and respect for the fans who bought the game.

As for the "buying additional content" You obviously missed my point that youre not buying Additional content, your buying stuff that should have been included since day 1 but youre/we are being taken for mugs and as for GT5 fans paying for the DLC I'm sure they would pay for DLC thats been worked on AFTER the games release, thus its proper old fashioned Additional content, not purposely removed content to score a few more bucks from you.

Dont be such a mug people!



You missed his point, zr1 was accusing PD of holding back content but he overlooked the balant "holding back of content" that turn 10 was scheming. Every content we have recieved for GT5 were FREE and the reason we will pay double for any new DLC is because they actually worked hard on it AFTER the game released. Unlike the Majority of developers PD still have some sanity in them and i wholeheartedly applaud them.

So GT5 basically is taking 6 years to be bug fixed right? Then how long until all the features are put into place (features on the game box)? Another year? So in reality GT5 is still being made, since its not complete, and still buggy. Am I right?

I dont mind at all to purchase more cars/tracks for Forza in the way of DLC. It makes them money, and me happy....win/win the way I see it. Many, many, companies do it, just like Dirt3. Its not missing content, its additional things added to the game. Doesnt matter if it was ready to go at the release or helb back for a month, it doesnt effect the core game one bit if you dont buy it. Again sounds like sour grapes because GT5 has not had any.

PD has sanity? I know if I sold something to a client and listed items in it, and they opened it to find out some were missing, they would think I was insane. Especially if I told them, "But you dont understand...see...my "Vision" is to...". Or even if I told them, yeah its incomplete now...but wait about a year and you "might" get the rest.

I guess sanity is well, relative.
 
I dont normally come on this thread because its just a fanboy war,

Violation of the AUP

But this quote is just pure tosh! Turn 10 would never release A spec 2.0 because its already a complete game? What about all the DLC thats advertised before the games ever released, Now I'm sorry if youre willing to suckle blindly at the Turn 10 and Mircosoft cash teat, But DLC should be something that theyve cooked up AFTER the games release that was created too late to put into the game when it was shipped... Having DLC stockpiled like Turn 10 are doing is not only wrong by purposely holding back content that could easily be put in the game (like PD actually did, No car packs there because KY wanted every car there ready and waiting for you)

While some might say this is just business, it stinks that Turn 10 are short changing the Forza fans, 500 cars could be easily 600 cars, but theyve decided hang on, we can make them pay for stuff they should already have.

So yes, while GT5 needed patched to fix problems, the A spec 2.0 and DLC are stuff theyve cooked up after the games release, not like in Turn 10s case where theyve taken Forza fans for mugs and actually held back/removed Cars and Tracks just to have some extra cash... The ugly side of what modern gaming has become.

Forza is not missing features and other aspects that were listed on the back cover like GT5. Spec 2.0 was cooked up before the game was even out. Are you really telling me that they didn't plan on doing that after they did exactly the same thing with GT5P? It just simply wasn't ready to be put in the game. That's what I call an incomplete game.

Forza still feels complete with 500 cars. Yes some of the DLC cars may be already done but I think most are not. Like the Jalopnik fan voted DLC that they did in FM3 for instance. There is no way those were done before release seeing as how the voting wasn't even done until a few months after release. More cars and tracks are content not features thus they are considered "Down-Loadable Content"
 
It's called common sense sunshine.

I guess I should apologize for assuming that two different quotes, relate to different points. Of course, if I particularly cared for your hyperbole, I might take it to heart

Common sense is a wonderful thing, you should get some.

You and your bum buddy Terronium-12 are hilarious
I think the fact that the only way you felt fit to respond is by throwing cheap insults at me, including implying that I was homosexual, speaks volume for how meaningless your arguments in this thread actually are.

And, by the way:

This all coming from a poster who colour's his post to try and grab some arrogant e-moral high ground 'much like their posting style' to have one over their fellow posters. You tell me that I 'throw temper tantrums' when you're entire existence in this thread over the past few pages is simply to ridicule posters because their opinion differs from your own.
I color my posts for one reason, and one reason only:
Great%252520And%252520Powerful%252520Vectors.png


Any assumptions you make are simply from you having your head up your ass so far that the stomach acid irritates your eyeballs; which is also presumably why you have such a difficult time actually reading other people's posts before you respond with lies, ridiculous logical leaps of faith framed as valid arguments and personal attacks.



So, once again and for the final time, good day.
 
JDMKING13
I really don't care for Autovista, all you can do is look and take pictures of the car, Its not like we can race them. The premiums are actually cars we can race while still maintaining the great detail.

It's only the Hogwart thing we can't race isn't it.

Gumpert, Konegsseggggg, Veyron etc you can race.

If your not bothered about looking at the car what's the big deal about detail when you race.

When racing in cockpit you never see the detail much anyway.
 
I really don't care for Autovista, all you can do is look and take pictures of the car, Its not like we can race them. The premiums are actually cars we can race while still maintaining the great detail.

You can race all of the cars that are in Autovista for the exception of the Warthog and Jay Leno's Bentley.
 
zr1chris
You can race all of the cars that are in Autovista for the exception of the Warthog and Jay Leno's Bentley.

Has it been confirmed you can't drive the Bentley? I haven't read it.

Hogwart is understandable.
 
It's only the Hogwart thing we can't race isn't it.

Gumpert, Konegsseggggg, Veyron etc you can race.

If your not bothered about looking at the car what's the big deal about detail when you race.

When racing in cockpit you never see the detail much anyway.

You can race all of the cars that are in Autovista for the exception of the Warthog and Jay Leno's Bentley.

Guys when racing In FM4 do the cars look as detailed as they do in Autovista? No Its not even close. People Bragging about Autovista graphics mean nothing to me because its a mode where you cant drive the cars. The details are amazing but its just a mode where you get some info take pictures and open up doors, they don't look like that in game play. That's what I was saying.
 
I think the fact that the only way you felt fit to respond is by throwing cheap insults at me, including implying that I was homosexual, speaks volume for how meaningless your arguments in this thread actually are.

And, by the way:


I color my posts for one reason, and one reason only:
Great%252520And%252520Powerful%252520Vectors.png


Any assumptions you make are simply from you having your head up your ass so far that the stomach acid irritates your eyeballs; which is also presumably why you have such a difficult time actually reading other people's posts before you respond with lies, ridiculous logical leaps of faith framed as valid arguments and personal attacks.



So, once again and for the final time, good day.

In the end, I really don't care. If you cannot comprehend the fact that T10 outsource to save money then be my guest. Of course the proof is in the pudding and while GT's premiums have minor flaws, they don't look slapped together like alot of the interiors in Forza 3 do. When you have such differences 'minor or large' in quality amongst cars that are considered the same in a game, something doesn't add up 'maybe, just maybe, the five different modelling studios go about business in slightly different ways...!!!!'. It's fantastic achievement that Forza has 400+modeled interiors, but don't tell me that they're not doing it to cut costs.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
JDMKING13
Guys when racing In FM4 do the cars look as detailed as they do in Autovista? No Its not even close. People Bragging about Autovista graphics mean nothing to me because its a mode where you cant drive the cars. The details are amazing but its just a mode where you get some info take pictures and open up doors, they don't look like that in game play. That's what I was saying.

I know what your saying.

You said you wasn't that interested in looking at the details.

When your racing you are.
 
I know what your saying.

You said you wasn't that interested in looking at the details.

When your racing you are.

Well I will give the Autovista a go the detail of the cars are amazing and very appreciated, but in the end they are nowhere that detail in game play even in photo mode the cars don't look anywhere compared to the Autovista models. This is why Autovista will be cool for about a week, then the wow factor will be gone. Im really excited to see some of the work of the top photographers in FM4 they will bring out the full potential of FM4.
 
Guys when racing In FM4 do the cars look as detailed as they do in Autovista? No Its not even close. People Bragging about Autovista graphics mean nothing to me because its a mode where you cant drive the cars. The details are amazing but its just a mode where you get some info take pictures and open up doors, they don't look like that in game play. That's what I was saying.

You realize of course that many users tout GT's Photomode graphics, right? ;)

There's definitely a difference in quality between Photo Travel and replay Photomode, too. I'll readily admit people shouldn't be comparing Autovista to race graphics in GT5 - compare Autovista to Photo Travel, and then compare race-to-race, and that makes a bit more sense 👍
 
^ Isn't that basically a description of Photo Tour as well? Minus opening doors and stuff...

Totally tree'd by SlipZtrEm there :lol:
 
You realize of course that many users tout GT's Photomode graphics, right? ;)

There's definitely a difference in quality between Photo Travel and replay Photomode, too. I'll readily admit people shouldn't be comparing Autovista to race graphics in GT5 - compare Autovista to Photo Travel, and then compare race-to-race, and that makes a bit more sense 👍

No doubt Slip I totally agree, however In my opinion Its a bigger gap with the Autovista mode and game play, photo mode in FM4 then the Premiums Photo Travel, and Photo mode.
 
Early morning lectures are difficult at GDC. With the company parties, open bars, and hordes of old friends catching up, waking up in time for a 9 AM lecture is among the more difficult activities one can engage in. This particular lecture, however, had little problem in gathering an audience. Outsourcing has long been on the minds of software developers and looks to be an inevitable as we gear up for games with more assets than ever before. Many were looking forward to hearing of a successful relationship leading to a multi-platinum, 93% gamerankings.com-rated title.

Microsoft's Forza Motorsport outsourced parts of the production to three different studios: Washington-based Valkyrie Entertainment, Glass Egg Digital Media of Vietnam, and Dhruva Interactive from India. Lecturing on the outsourcing process that helped make Forza Motorsport what it was were Dhruva Interactive CEO Rajesh Rao, Microsoft Game Studios Art Director John Wendl, and Microsoft Business Manager Nick Dimitrov.

Advertisement

A combination of art requirements and a strict time schedule brought the Microsoft Game Studios management team to pursue outsourcing. Eighteen complete track environments and 230 cars, complete with LOD, damage textures, and extensive customization needed to be completed over a year-long production schedule. MGS needed a way to dramatically increase their production team size.

First came a decision on what to outsource; cars made the most sense, as they required little art direction, being licensed vehicles. From a software perspective, they were very modular components that didn't have to integrate in any particular way with other components. "Deciding what to outsource is critical," said Wendl. He also stressed that it's important to start gently by starting with assets that don't take significant risk.


Dhruva Interactive CEO Rajesh Rao

Microsoft went through a long, two-phase evaluation process to choose their vendors. First, there was an evaluation of 5 companies to determine who could hit their desired quality mark. During this time, there was no time limit. This reduced the field to three, which Microsoft evaluated through a second test phase: make four complete cars in four weeks. Here, Microsoft looked at how the vendors were able to deliver on time and on spec. Wendl emphasized the importance of the spec. "Even if there is a better way to do it… innovative is less important than hitting the spec."

From this process, Microsoft chose two vendors for outsourcing. Using two helped to diversify the risk to Microsoft's end while bolstering the team significantly. Dimitrov also added that on the business side of the decision, it's important to mitigate risk by choosing to outsource to vendors with diversified revenue streams.

The preparation for the beginning of outsourced production was significant. Microsoft established dedicated staff and QA for the outsourced production. They also prepared a full prototype build that led to a finalized spec to provide to the vendors. These specs need to contain lots of detail. There also should be some of the work detailed in the spec done in house; this way, it's easy for the home base to recognize that the spec does or does not work. Also, it's important to allow lead time to the vendors to allocate resources to the project.

Wendl noted that in production, it's important that the vendors work on the assets from start to finish. "Working on someone else's art is the worst thing for an artist," he said. Dhruva was outfitted with a complete art production pipeline with the same tools and development kits as Microsoft. Quality assurance was done on both Dhruva's and Microsoft's end; sync between the QA leads on both sides grew with each passing milestone.

Rao noted the fairness and respect with which Microsoft approached the project as key to the successful relationship. Problems that arose, even those that were solely on Microsoft's end, were made known quickly to everyone and changes were implemented. In contracts, creeping featurism is always a difficult and scary proposition, but Microsoft was always fair with the additions and careful to keep to the spirit of the original agreement.

Wendl noted that while the production process went smoothly, the process wasn't as efficient in regards to shutdown of the project. "We didn't really have vendors doing much bug fixing after [the content complete date] but we are looking to do it much more extensively in the future."

By the project's end, Forza was a clear success on both the time and cost front, with quality results that didn't suggest three separate groups in three countries doing the art. There were some things that went less well, including bug fixing, late changes to the spec, and inaccurate estimations of some of the parts work. These in varying degrees are inevitable, and flexibility on both sides of the relationship is important. Wendl talked about how important it was to treat the company as "an extended partner, not just a vendor." Keeping this in mind can help things go smoothly over a wide variety of problems that may arise.

All three agreed on the point of strong respect between all parties involved. Even in cases where the chemistry grows sour, "Be open," said Wendl. "Never burn bridges."

from: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/2627/gdc_successful_outsourcing_on_aaa_.php

Interesting read. Also interesting to note that work for Forza 1 was outsourced to Vietnam, India and another studio in the US, suggesting that labour cost was less of a priority, with time constraints and quality taking precedent. It is definitely not a case of throwing a job at a random company because they charged the least and calling it good, with Microsoft installing it's own staff and outfitting companies with it's own equipment.

I'm willing to be the companies used for Forza 4 are picked in the same vane, whilst it is no doubt cheaper to use them over home grown 3d modellers, Asia most likely has a wider, deeper breadth of talent in the pool to pick from.
 
After all these years, Turn 10 cannot get models right whether it's the geometry or the lighting either. Their shaders look like some cartoonish smear during real time gameplay.


That's what outsourcing does. No quality control. You only have to look at Sony corp for first hand experience. Back then they used to build all their stuff. The quality was supreme. Until they decided to outsource most of their production to china and taiwan to cut costs and as a result their quality suffered. What the morons in japan were thinking off when they partnered with that cheap ass korean **** copycats known as samsung on their flagship bravia in the early 2000s i will never know. As a result sony went from 1st in TVs to number 3 in less than 5 years. All their technical expertise was basically copied and simulated from scratch by the koreans samsung and LG and you have what you have right now. 20 years if you told sony execs that they would be outsourcing their materials and working with competitors and korean at that they would have told to get the **** outta here. Nowadays we have gaijins and western bureaucrats running the company who are driving all tech knowhow away from japan.

Thankfully someone in PD said we will built our stuff inhouse even if it takes till the next decade. At least then the cars would look their counterparts for real.
 

Latest Posts

Back