FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[zr1chris]

On that note, where is the Porsche 962 in the GT series?

Exactly...

I wouldn't speak to soon. We may lose Porsche for FM4.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

If we lose them its because of legalities, not because whatever GT5's reason is.

 

[Luminis]

All they need are the Hakosuka, Kenmeri, R31, R32 GTR, R33 GTR V Spec, R34 V spec, R35 V spec, and maybe throw in a sedan GT-S T Skyline in there.

There, that's better, I think For the drifters, at least.

But, you're definitely right, I see absolutely no reason to put that many different models of the same car into a game. Aside from easily increasing the number of cars in the game, that is.

If we lose them its because of legalities, not because whatever GT5's reason is.

That is GT5's reason.

 

[Akira AC]

They obviously don't have open wheelers, but Rally cars? From the top of my head, there's at least the Super 2000 Peugot. Also, I'm rather glad T10 don't go around adding wonky cars. Having a 1886 Meceredes Benz Patent Motor Wagon might be funny, but how much time are you going to spend with it?

Aside from the open wheelers, it's mostly the wierd cars that GT has over FM when it comes to the car selection - and I'm glad they don't waste resources on that.

Being the same model and similar setup of a rally car doesn't automatically mean that is a rally car , there are plenty of unique characteristics on rally cars that should be interesting to see in tracks like Rally di positano.

Also having the Auto Union C Streamline in a game like GT is quite interesting, needless to say this points one of the most important and problematic aspects of GT, which is the organization of its assets, GT5 incorporates a track creator that could have done for an interesting historic rally challenges , it has the cars and the track editor for this, still it is only for one challenge that could have been wider and yet more exploitable.

I do see the FM vision, but it doesn't follow the same trends to be an actual rival to the GT approach, which is much wider(but loose at the same time).

GT games(well from GT5) needs someone who plans an interesting approach to its assets, FM doesn't need too much improvements because is limited in comparison.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

There, that's better, I think For the drifters, at least.

But, you're definitely right, I see absolutely no reason to put that many different models of the same car into a game. Aside from easily increasing the number of cars in the game, that is.

But atleast GT5 has 1000 cars, even if 100 of them are Skylines........right?

 

[zr1chris]

All they need are the Hakosuka, Kenmeri, R31, R32 GTR, R33 GTR V Spec, R34 V spec, R35 V spec, and maybe throw in a sedan Skyline in there.

I wouldn't sacrifice any of our Ferrari's for them though or any of the other cars for that matter.

 

[JJ72]

Being the same model and similar setup of a rally car doesn't automatically mean that is a rally car , there are plenty of unique characteristics on rally cars that should be interesting to see in tracks like Rally di positano.

Name one thing that you can't customize in FM3 for rally use except clever electronic differentials (which GT5 too doesn't simulate, only RBR does).

Please tell me what "unique characteristic" you are talking about.

A rally car is just a touring car / GT car with dirt tires and different settings even in real life. There's nothing more to that.

 

[Luminis]

Being the same model and similar setup of a rally car doesn't automatically mean that is a rally car , there are plenty of unique characteristics on rally cars that should be interesting to see in tracks like Rally di positano.

Uh, what? The 207 Super 2000 is a full fledged rally car.

A Super 2000 version of the 207 is used in the Super 2000 World Rally Championship as well as several rally championships across Europe. The 2008 European Rally drivers' champion and the 2007 and 2008 Intercontinental Rally Challenge drivers' champions drove 207 Super 2000s.

I do see the FM vision, but it doesn't follow the same trends to be an actual rival to the GT approach, which is much wider(but loose at the same time).

Wider? It's more focused on bottom-end JDM cars and has a few quirky cars. How does that make the approach wider? In my opinion, FM3 did a better job at representing cars from across the performance scale then GT5 does.

But atleast GT5 has 1000 cars, even if 100 of them are Skylines........right?

Yup
It looks so nice on the back of the box.

 

[Akira AC]

Name one thing that you can't customize in FM3 for rally use except clever electronic differentials (which GT5 too doesn't simulate, only RBR does).

Please tell me what "unique characteristic" you are talking about.

A rally car is just a touring car / GT car with dirt tires and different settings even in real life. There's nothing more to that.

Plz investigate a bit before posting.

Wider? It's more focused on bottom-end JDM cars and has a few quirky cars. How does that make the approach wider? In my opinion, FM3 did a better job at representing cars from across the performance scale then GT5 does.

GT's approach ranges from kart racing to F1s, Simple Rally cars to WRC and wider ranges(Escudo for example), and LMP cars, each one with their appropriate place to be race(endurance tracks, rally tracks, touring tracks).

But FM is only limited to LMP, touring, and supercars which, it does this well, but is far more limited.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

I do see the FM vision, but it doesn't follow the same trends to be an actual rival to the GT approach, which is much wider(but loose at the same time).

GT games(well from GT5) needs someone who plans an interesting approach to its assets, FM doesn't need too much improvements because is limited in comparison.

I dont quite follow this, can you go in to a little more detail?

 

[Luminis]

Plz investigate a bit before posting.

Sorry for being rude, but look who's talking...

*points to the post about the 207 Super 2000 not being a real rally car*

 

[stig's helmet]

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5695098

LMAO sorry.
I believe Forza has a wider variety of Ferraris in the game.
If you notice, the bio of the Ferraris in GT5 all have a connection with Japan except for maybe 1 or 2.

here is the Ferrari list.

Ferrari
2005 #11 Larbre Competition 550 Maranello GTS
1998 #12 Risi Competizione F333 SP
1998 #30 MOMO/Doran Racing F333 SP
2006 #62 Risi Competizione F430GT
2008 #71 Tafel Racing F430GT
2003 #72 Team Alphand Aventures 550 Maranello GTS
2003 #88 Veloqx / Prodrive Racing 550 Maranello
2008 #90 Farnbacher Racing F430GT
1957 250 California
1964 250 GTO
1957 250 Testa Rossa
1984 288 GTO
1967 330 P4
1999 360
2007 430 Scuderia
2010 458 Italia
1991 512 TR
2002 575M Maranello
2010 599XX
2007 599 GTB Fiorano
2004 612 Scaglietti
2009 California
2003 Challenge Stradale
1969 Dino 246 GT
2002 Enzo Ferrari
1994 F355 Berlinetta
1995 F355 Challenge
1987 F40
1989 F40 Competizione
2004 F430
1995 F50
1996 F50 GT
2005 FXX

Lmao no worries, certainly more than 10 and for what it's worth I agree with you.

 

[Akira AC]

Sorry for being rude, but look who's talking...

*points to the post about the 207 Super 2000 not being a real rally car*

Cookie?

 

[JJ72]

Plz investigate a bit before posting.

Why don't you enlighten me? I guess you have to pass me the ball as you have nothing actual to contribute. 👍

 

[JJ72]

endurance tracks, rally tracks, touring tracks

You see, rally run majorly in rally stages, not "tracks" with unbreakable plastic boundaries.

And there's nothing as an endurance track and touring track.

 

[Akira AC]

I don't known if I should continue, as Amar point out, subjectivity is actually a big deal around here, something that overshadows objectivity.

So yeah, if such discussion takes place, then both parts should be willing to accept criticism, something that I don't seeing here, actual analysis of bullet points in both games is overshadowed by subjectivity so, why bother?.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Because it makes people feel better that maybe, just maybe they can convince someone to join their side.
Although I doubt any fanboys of either side will switch.
I like both.
So its meh to me, but they both have flaws.


Some bigger than others(standards), (no white wheels)

 

[Luminis]

Cookie?

Sure, thanks. How about some milk to go with it?

So yeah, if such discussion takes place, then both parts should be willing to accept criticism, something that I don't seeing here, actual analysis of bullet points in both games is overshadowed by subjectivity so, why bother?.

What analysis? The tyre debate, which completely failed to analyze or even mention the situation of the tyres in GT5, such as simply being grip multiplayers (which is evident by the skidpad numbers posted in the thread I posted earlier and by the fact that Racing Soft tyres work better in the rainf than Rain tyres) or that the tyre wear is not linked to whether you're running soft, medium or hard compounds?

Or the discussion about the car list, which basically was just "No, GT5 has a more diverse car list, period", even if it's pretty had to be talking about variety if you're trying to bring up positive things about a game that features some 50 Nissan Skylines and Mazda Miatas.

Talk about subjectivity...

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

I agree.
If GT5 had a more diverse list they would feature many more cars, and even the smaller manufacturers such as Bertone, Spada, etc. FM has less cars, but more cars.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[cuco33]

Again, the game hasn't come out.

And still, no open wheel, concepts or anything remotely similar (where is the T model in FM series).

T model? You mean the Ford Model T?

Yeah... no thanks...

 

[Crispy]

HELLAFLUSH240SX
All they need are the Hakosuka, Kenmeri, R31, R32 GTR, R33 GTR V Spec, R34 V spec, R35 V spec, and maybe throw in a sedan GT-S T Skyline in there.

There, that's better, I think For the drifters, at least.

But, you're definitely right, I see absolutely no reason to put that many different models of the same car into a game. Aside from easily increasing the number of cars in the game, that is.

I think instead of the R35 SpecV, we should have the 2012 GTR. I think the R34 should be in Autovista too, as it's the only Skyline you won't be able to drive here in the US. Which T10 being a US company, seems like they would add it in.

I hope to see a DLC pack that brings all the cars into Autovista. I don't want any of this some do and some don't crap anymore.

 

[zr1chris]

I think instead of the R35 SpecV, we should have the 2012 GTR. I think the R34 should be in Autovista too, as it's the only Skyline you won't be able to drive here in the US. Which T10 being a US company, seems like they would add it in.

I hope to see a DLC pack that brings all the cars into Autovista. I don't want any of this some do and some don't crap anymore.

I've always preferred the R33 over the other Skylines.

 

[Crispy]

I've always preferred the R33 over the other Skylines.

There's a couple up for sale in the Cali region. They are very beautiful cars.

 

[ItsHim]

You were on about how the tyre wear didn't change according to your driving style. It does in FM3. So, what's the point of dragging FM2 in? That some parts of the physics engine have been carried over doesn't matter if this specific issue has been fixed, right?

Well, duh, there is tyre wear, of course. That wasn't my point. And that your driving style does affect it isn't, either.

The issue is was on is this: Thread about tyre wear on different compounds.
How spot on is a game if Racing Soft tyres wear just as fast as Racing Hard tyres?

If you care to read my original post, I stated that T10 (in the FN 2 CE booklet) went to great lengths praising their bespoke better than industry standard tyre model. It didn't live up to that claim.

You cannot deny the dominance of AWD cars in both FM2 and FM3. My conclusion: the focus on grip is still as prominent in FM3 than FM2. You can still fool the class rating by trading tyre grip for hp and get the lot back simply by swapping drive train.

My statement: T10's bespoke tyre model didn't work (better than the rest). Again they claim they have yet an altogether better model now. They failed me once, I have thus no reason believing (!) it's not just marketing but actually works this time round.

As you have chosen to acknowledge my first argument I happily repeat it: GT5 let's you abuse lower grade tyres well beyond their modelled comfort zone. You'll get similar lap times yet less life from harder compounds. You get more life out of harder compounds driven in their comfort zone than softer also driven in their comfort zone. Most go as hard on the tyres as they can and then wonder why harder compounds wear faster than softer. They might be 5% over soft compound speed, but 30% over hard compound optimal speed. From what I learned if you continue to put the same stress on worn tyres, you'll increase the wear and thus harder compounds wear exponentially faster. Not linear.

This is what I know from doing many attempts on the 4 hour Nürburgring race in GT5 and hundreds of hours online play and tuning in FM2.

So if you don't follow my reasoning I'm more than happy to hear your arguments or do some endurance races and share your findings in the thread over in the race reports section.

 

[Luminis]

I think instead of the R35 SpecV, we should have the 2012 GTR.

Dunno whether T10 is going to bother to remodel the GT-R just to get the small differences between the Spec V and the MY 2012 GT-R into the game. Would be okay, I guess, but I'd much rather see them add someething that really is a new car.

I think the R34 should be in Autovista too, as it's the only Skyline you won't be able to drive here in the US. Which T10 being a US company, seems like they would add it in.

Well, it does seem likely. The R34 is probably one of the most popular JDM cars, at least with people who know next to nothing about cars

I hope to see a DLC pack that brings all the cars into Autovista. I don't want any of this some do and some don't crap anymore.

That's not gonna happen, and you know it

If you care to read my original post, I stated that T10 (in the FN 2 CE booklet) went to great lengths praising their bespoke better than industry standard tyre model. It didn't live up to that claim.

Well, what games had better tyre models in the industry, back then, on consoles? Not too many games I could think of in, what, 2007?

You cannot deny the dominance of AWD cars in both FM2 and FM3. My conclusion: the focus on grip is still as prominent in FM3 than FM2. You can still fool the class rating by trading tyre grip for hp and get the lot back simply by swapping drive train.

What does the AWD swap issue have to do with it? That's a problem of the PI system, which doesn't take the added grip from the AWD into account, just the added weight.

My statement: T10's bespoke tyre model didn't work (better than the rest). Again they claim they have yet an altogether better model now. They failed me once, I have thus no reason believing (!) it's not just marketing but actually works this time round.

Even if it is not the best, all they need to do is improve over FM3's. If they do, they'll be fairly close to having the best on consoles, anyways. Just to repeat this: Whether they're claim of "best in the industry" was true or not, FM3's tyre model is good. It has it's flaws, sure, just as GT5 does have its issues with its tyres. If they improve on that already good model, that's all they need to do to end up with a very good one, not unlikely to be one of the best on a console.

As you have chosen to acknowledge my first argument I happily repeat it: GT5 let's you abuse lower grade tyres well beyond their modelled comfort zone. You'll get similar lap times yet less life from harder compounds. You get more life out of harder compounds driven in their comfort zone than softer also driven in their comfort zone. Most go as hard on the tyres as they can and then wonder why harder compounds wear faster than softer. They might be 5% over soft compound speed, but 30% over hard compound optimal speed. From what I learned if you continue to put the same stress on worn tyres, you'll increase the wear and thus harder compounds wear exponentially faster. Not linear.

To make this clear: I know that you can conserve your tyres and that, while doing so, you will get more life out of hard tyres than out of soft ones. The loss of time you are taking with that is so big, though, that it's not worth it, as you'll be loosing so much time a lap, that the additional pit stop is well worth it - there is no advantage to doing this. And that's why people are bringing it up: With GT5, preserving your tyres does not net you anything - thus, if you're out to actually go fast, hard tyre compounds won't get you anything. That's from various attempts at the Grand Valley 300KM race, using the stock (aside from the oil change) FT-86 G-Sport Concept for good comparability of the individual runs, about ten to fifteen with just the FT-86.

Now, is that realistic, I wonder?

This is what I know from doing many attempts on the 4 hour Nürburgring race in GT5 and hundreds of hours online play and tuning in FM2.

And what are your experiences with FM3, then? You've now been rambling on about FM3, and even if some of the stuff was supposeldy carried over, a lot was changed from FM2 to FM3 - so I'm still saying that there is absolutely no point to bring it up.

So if you don't follow my reasoning I'm more than happy to hear your arguments or do some endurance races and share your findings in the thread over in the race reports section.

How about you going ahead, doing some in FM3, so we can stop talking about the dated predecessor?

 

[Zer0]

by the fact that Racing Soft tyres work better in the rainf than Rain tyres) or that the tyre wear is not linked to whether you're running soft, medium or hard compounds?

There is an option called "Grip Reduction" and can be set to "Low"(arcade) or "Real"(sim). I guess you never tried.

Grip Reduction - Real

Rain Tyres - Best choice. Same pros and cons as Inters in GR Low. Obviously the overall grip is lower than when GR is Low, but Rain tyres give superior cornering grip, at the expense of slight decrease in straight line traction. Slower laptimes (~1 sec), but more consistent and easier to drive. Use this if you're not confident in the rain.
Intermediate Tyres - 2nd best choice. Same pros and cons as Slicks in GR Low. Moderate cornering grip, but superior straight line traction. Faster laptime but more prone to mistakes. Use this if you're a pro in the wet.
Racing Soft Tyres - Worst worst worst choice. Absolute zero grip. You cannot go straight unless you're at 50 km/h or lower. It's 500% worse than Rain tyres with GR Low. AVOID at all costs (should be obvious). Try it once, just for laughs. You will never complain about Comfort Hards ever again.
Sport Soft Tyres - Same performance as Racing tyres. Craptacular, in other words. Slightly lower grip means it's more controllable when breaking traction, but that's about it. Stay away at all costs.
Comfort Soft Tyres - Again, never use this unless you have a death wish. Even lower grip than Sports, but also less sudden when breaking traction. The most usable out of the 3 dry tyres, but still useless in racing conditions.

Explanations: Since the grip reduction is set to realistic, it behaves just like in real-life. Rain tyres is the obvious choice, but those who are skilled may wish to gamble on Inters and trade drivability for a bit more speed. Keep in mind that these tests are conducted in POURING conditions. Light rain may magnify the difference and make Inters much faster than Full Wets (just like in real life too!). More tests may be conducted in the future (it's a bit difficult though, since the rain intensity is random). Dry tyres (all 3 types) are a big no-no. That much is obvious.

Conclusion: If GR is set to Real, your tyre preference should be Rain>Int>>>>>>>>>>Comfort>Sport>Racing.

 

[bullet360]

Gran turismo is a driving simulater, forza is leanjng more to the arcade side of racing, take you pic on what you like, both are great in their own ways... But mind you gt has captured my heart since the first, and has been there BEFORE te xbox was even created, so to callforza te king of racers is a bit much.... Both great games though

 

[Luminis]

There is an option called "Grip Reduction" and can be set to "Low"(arcade) or "Real"(sim). I guess you never tried.

While I have been using it, I've never used Racing Softs in the first place, so that bit was indeed second-hand information. If it's wrong, I apologize for that.

Gran turismo is a driving simulater, forza is leanjng more to the arcade side of racing, take you pic on what you like, both are great in their own ways... But mind you gt has captured my heart since the first, and has been there BEFORE te xbox was even created, so to callforza te king of racers is a bit much.... Both great games though

See, this is the kind of post that'll lead to a lot of, well, not so friendly reactions, I think... Calling one of the two games arcady without giving any reasoning whatsoever. Fine with me, though, just saying...

 

[Da-Bomber]

Gran turismo is a driving simulater, forza is leanjng more to the arcade side of racing, take you pic on what you like, both are great in their own ways... But mind you gt has captured my heart since the first, and has been there BEFORE te xbox was even created, so to callforza te king of racers is a bit much.... Both great games though

So was GT1, what's your point?

 

[Bogie 19th]

I've always preferred the R33 over the other Skylines.

Whoa....that must be one of the best set of rims I have seen on a car. Are those factory? 👍