FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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Had it occurred to you that the points I didn't comment on may be because I agree with them?

I would also take issue with your allegation that I am posting simply to impress, you don't know me and if you take the time to review my posting history across the board then you would know that is simply not the case. Get to know the boards and its members before you attach character traits to people that may very well be inaccurate.


Scaff

Missed this. If you agree with points you didn't comment on, then you can't really argue with the other ones, as they all go hand in hand. The suspicions about the GT5 physics model are pretty much confirmed in that it models a very small number of elements leaving gaps that show themselves as people do the natural curiosity thing of poking around and experimenting in it. That and the fundamental issues with the tuning which are either a massive programming error or a by product of the physics model being UTTERLY fubared. Both of these lead me personally to believe that the Forza model, even in it's FM3 incarnation (will be interesting to see how much FM4 moves it on), is a far superior and complete model. That is my standpoint, and I don't see how GT5 'feeling' right (for some people, I still maintain it was awful and sterile for me) for a very small portion of the game time can really hold much to it.

I have been on the forums for 6 years, that might have slipped your notice. How people see you is based on what and how you post. If I see you like that then that is how you have portrayed yourself, whether I do or not is not privy to you however, as I am simply a screen name to you. The person on the other end is a mystery.
 
GT never was never your common western 'game' as there never was much 'game' in the first place. A car - a track. That's all there is and if you ask me: that's all there has to be if the driving is that good as it is. It is ignorance at its finest if one fails to comprehend where the focus of this GT iteration lies.
Problem is what GT5 has right now is not good enough to hang it's hat on without adding the "western" game in the game. Race Pro can get away with it. Many people are not as easily impressed with GT5's physics as the loyalist are. There's reality and then there's GT5 and FM3 physics and too me they are equally distanced apart from each other with reality in the middle.

So if that's the case , as it is with some of us, then what's next? What else does the game have to offer. And by your own admission GT5 doesn't have much "game" in the first place so .....

Missed this. If you agree with points you didn't comment on, then you can't really argue with the other ones, as they all go hand in hand. The suspicions about the GT5 physics model are pretty much confirmed in that it models a very small number of elements leaving gaps that show themselves as people do the natural curiosity thing of poking around and experimenting in it. That and the fundamental issues with the tuning which are either a massive programming error or a by product of the physics model being UTTERLY fubared. Both of these lead me personally to believe that the Forza model, even in it's FM3 incarnation (will be interesting to see how much FM4 moves it on), is a far superior and complete model. That is my standpoint, and I don't see how GT5 'feeling' right (for some people, I still maintain it was awful and sterile for me) for a very small portion of the game time can really hold much to it.

I have been on the forums for 6 years, that might have slipped your notice. How people see you is based on what and how you post. If I see you like that then that is how you have portrayed yourself, whether I do or not is not privy to you however, as I am simply a screen name to you. The person on the other end is a mystery.

Nice post.
 
Assumptions:
-The driver in both vids is the same.
-Time spent in both games is the same
-the orange number in the bottom right indicates the percentage of screentear.

It seems as if the FM3 driver is doing a lot better. If my assumptions above are correct; this is mainly caused by the lack of sence of speed in GT5 and the amount in which you can feel what the car is doing beneath you. What does suprise me is that the amount of tear in FM3 is 0.0 no matter which view, and in GT5 the tear is far higher in the bumpercam, which i always use, then the view with car in view.. (i've noticed far worse screentear when going off track whilst drifting..)
Recovering the car when it starts to slide also seems a lot better in FM3. This could be caused by having the SkidRecoveryForce in GT5 turned on. It does weird things to the physics..
Looks: Yes the car model looks better in GT5 but the overall feel of the car actually being in that environment is more convincing in FM3 for me.. It's more soft, and not so sterile and "empty" as GT5..


That all Folks!
 
And I was told I was being completely wrong when I mentioned GT5 suffering from awful lots of screen tearing. Looks like it wasn't my TV setup, after all.
Same with the frame rate drops. Forza stays at a rock solid 59FPS 95% of the time, while GT5 drops down below 50 quite a bit, at least in clip four. So much for me imagining the frame rate drops :lol:

Thanks, Hotspitta, great video! 👍
 
And I was told I was being completely wrong when I mentioned GT5 suffering from awful lots of screen tearing. Looks like it wasn't my TV setup, after all.
Same with the frame rate drops. Forza stays at a rock solid 59FPS 95% of the time, while GT5 drops down below 50 quite a bit, at least in clip four. So much for me imagining the frame rate drops :lol:

Thanks, Hotspitta, great video! 👍

Welcome Lumi.👍

Assumptions:
-The driver in both vids is the same.
-Time spent in both games is the same
-the orange number in the bottom right indicates the percentage of screentear.

It seems as if the FM3 driver is doing a lot better. If my assumptions above are correct; this is mainly caused by the lack of sence of speed in GT5 and the amount in which you can feel what the car is doing beneath you. What does suprise me is that the amount of tear in FM3 is 0.0 no matter which view, and in GT5 the tear is far higher in the bumpercam, which i always use, then the view with car in view.. (i've noticed far worse screentear when going off track whilst drifting..)
Recovering the car when it starts to slide also seems a lot better in FM3. This could be caused by having the SkidRecoveryForce in GT5 turned on. It does weird things to the physics..
Looks: Yes the car model looks better in GT5 but the overall feel of the car actually being in that environment is more convincing in FM3 for me.. It's more soft, and not so sterile and "empty" as GT5..


That all Folks!

+1 It think Gt5 has put more effort into making the cars look good and forgot too focus on the big picture. In motion FM3 is more Photorealistic because it runs so smooth.

Also Gt5's Rigid cam is just horrendous for racinggames because you cant see how the car is behaving when you go into a slip wich makes it harder too gain control back over the car. It was something that was asked for alot on Psn forums, gtplanet etc after Prologue but THEY did not listen too the fans..Unlike T10 who seems too be doing alot better when it comes too things like this.👍
 
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One of the main things I noticed is smoke isnt what caused the frame rate drop like many people claim. There were a few times in that video where GT5 produced a substantial amount of smoke and the fps didnt drop at all.
 
Well seeing gt5 runs a full 12 cars on the track at the same time, or even a full 16 if he's in arcade, but thats no excuse, those many pixels with that many fps with the ps3's low internal units is gunna cost us sometime and somewhere during the gameplay....
 
So yeah, FM maintains 60 fps all the time, I'll like to see how it will handle such frame rate with dynamic lights and particle effects, not to mention +4 cars.

Texture do look reduced in FM though.
 
akiraacecombat
So yeah, FM maintains 60 fps all the time, I'll like to see how it will handle such frame rate with dynamic lights and particle effects, not to mention +4 cars.

Texture do look reduced in FM though.

I'm looking forward to seeing how they do it too.

In not a tech head but I'm still fascinated by it all.
 
So yeah, FM maintains 60 fps all the time, I'll like to see how it will handle such frame rate with dynamic lights and particle effects, not to mention +4 cars.

Texture do look reduced in FM though.

The 60 fps are one of their important goals in the graphics for Forza 3 and Forza 4 also.

+ 4 cars? FM 3 had 8 and FM 4 will feature 16 cars. In the track day events there are even way more cars on the track to overtake. What I understood in one interview, that they said that the number of cars is no problem now, but they implemented the number of cars that would makes sense and fit in the gameplay.

I also doubt that we get that much tearing like we got in GT5. The many gameplay videos from E3 and other events showed already a flawless presentation.

Its better to have no picture problems and a solid framerate than some eyecandy and tearing from hell.
 
The 60 fps are one of their important goals in the graphics for Forza 3 and Forza 4 also.

+ 4 cars? FM 3 had 8 and FM 4 will feature 16 cars. In the track day events there are even way more cars on the track to overtake. What I understood in one interview, that they said that the number of cars is no problem now, but they implemented the number of cars that would makes sense and fit in the gameplay.

I also doubt that we get that much tearing like we got in GT5. The many gameplay videos from E3 and other events showed already a flawless presentation.

Its better to have no picture problems and a solid framerate than some eyecandy and tearing from hell.

Not sure about the whole "dropped frame rate spoil the experience claims", after all, to archive the frame drop you had to be playing at 1080 with premiums around you, and even so the frame rate didn't drop less than 30 fps, which is what the human eye can perceive.

I'm expecting to see 12 cars in race to save memory, after all, FM3 didn't push the hardware to its boundaries(lower poly models while in race for example), now they using a higher detail models for in race, which means that better memory management methods have been develop, however is almost the same story with this and GT, 16 in multiplayer, 12 in single player races(there is also a AI memory management thing to be consider while racing, the processor might not handle 16 different AI, and AI is dynamic since FM2).
 
So yeah, FM maintains 60 fps all the time, I'll like to see how it will handle such frame rate with dynamic lights and particle effects, not to mention +4 cars.

Texture do look reduced in FM though.
Actually, from what I've read so far, it seems that the new image based lighting is easier on the hardware than their previous system. Using those 'dynamic lights' seems to have freeded up a bit of the hardware.
 
Actually, from what I've read so far, it seems that the new image based lighting is easier on the hardware than their previous system. Using those 'dynamic lights' seems to have freeded up a bit of the hardware.

Correct. It has allowed them too have more cars on track for instance. Also time of day and possibly night racing on ALL tracks. Weather not sure. But we will find out this or next week.👍
 
Correct. It has allowed them too have more cars on track for instance. Also time of day and possibly night racing on ALL tracks. Weather not sure. But we will find out this or next week.👍

This should be interesting, lets see who points out this correctly.

No one, ok so is convenient to don't point out things when they are wrong and clearly affect the discussion.

lets see:

akiraacecombat
So yeah, FM maintains 60 fps all the time, I'll like to see how it will handle such frame rate with dynamic lights and particle effects, not to mention +4 cars.

And no one pointed out that FM4 uses fixed lights, Hmm...

That's actually interesting.
 
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Not sure about the whole "dropped frame rate spoil the experience claims", after all, to archive the frame drop you had to be playing at 1080 with premiums around you, and even so the frame rate didn't drop less than 30 fps, which is what the human eye can perceive.

I'm expecting to see 12 cars in race to save memory, after all, FM3 didn't push the hardware to its boundaries(lower poly models while in race for example), now they using a higher detail models for in race, which means that better memory management methods have been develop, however is almost the same story with this and GT, 16 in multiplayer, 12 in single player races(there is also a AI memory management thing to be consider while racing, the processor might not handle 16 different AI, and AI is dynamic since FM2).

They already showed that it can handle more than 16 cars, even they are controled by the ai.

I dont think that the drop from lets say 60 fps to 50 fps was really noticable in GT5 and it wasnt that much of a problem. It was the tearing when you drove through a corner and that happened even while you were alone on the track.

They bring us over 500 - 600 cars with Forza 4 all with cockpits and full customisation. GT5 failed in that point, but it won in driving pleasure and premium graphics.

Oh and dont froget that Forza 3 worked very well from day one, while GT5 had some major updates in the past that finally added needing features and made it work. So 6 years and they couldnt put anything properly together?
 
They already showed that it can handle more than 16 cars, even they are controled by the ai.

vid plz.

They bring us over 500 - 600 cars with Forza 4 all with cockpits and full customisation. GT5 failed in that point, but it won in driving pleasure and premium graphics.

Oh and dont froget that Forza 3 worked very well from day one, while GT5 had some major updates in the past that finally added needing features and made it work. So 6 years and they couldnt put anything properly together?

And this add to the conversation in what sense?

350 of those models were modifications of the same models brought back from FM1, not to mention that the series actually has added around 250 models in the last 5 years, cockpits are half-asset(not working dials in most of the stock cars, with severely limited view cockpits elements, increased detailed cockpits weren't shown until DLC packages, and those had to be paid), not to mention the lack of new tracks and scenarios, and don't forget about the lack of weather changes and of course dynamic lighting.

This doesn't add too much to the conversation, just like the things you just pointed out.

However, I want to see if those 16(AI) cars on track.
 
Not sure about the whole "dropped frame rate spoil the experience claims", after all, to archive the frame drop you had to be playing at 1080 with premiums around you, and even so the frame rate didn't drop less than 30 fps, which is what the human eye can perceive.
I get noticeable amount of steen tearing on Cape Ring. Alone.
On "heavy" tracks like Rome or Madrid, the amount of tearing is just insane.
When I'm a bit tired, this combination of unstable fps and tearing even causes headaches.

Oh, and I'm sick of that 30fps "the eye can't see" BS. The difference between 30fps and 60fps is FREAKIN' HUGE. And you can still perceive differences up to 120fps, even if, admittedly, it's much more subtle.
 
vid plz.



And this add to the conversation in what sense?

350 of those models were modifications of the same models brought back from FM1, not to mention that the series actually has added around 250 models in the last 5 years, cockpits are half-asset(not working dials in most of the stock cars, with severely limited view cockpits elements, increased detailed cockpits weren't shown until DLC packages, and those had to be paid), not to mention the lack of new tracks and scenarios, and don't forget about the lack of weather changes and of course dynamic lighting.

This doesn't add too much to the conversation, just like the things you just pointed out.

However, I want to see if those 16(AI) cars on track.

http://youtu.be/74xZHnCZlS0?t=13m6s He said the best he did was to overtake 19 cars in one lap. In another Interview or this, he said that they arent limited with the number of cars on track, but as i stated before, they choose the number of cars that make sense.

You still cant dismiss the fact that there are about 200 Premiums in GT5 and not every single one has the great quality you talk about (look of my comparision of Nissan GTR34 on gtplanet). FM 4 will have over 500 cars with cockpit and they look very good from what we have seen yet. The biggest problem of FM3 was the lighting that crippled down some nice looking interiors. A low number of cars in a game can be compensated by a good variety, GT5s premium department lacks of it. They even didnt included icons like the Toyota Supra MarkIV or the Bugatti Veyron.
 
HBK
I get noticeable amount of steen tearing on Cape Ring. Alone.
On "heavy" tracks like Rome or Madrid, the amount of tearing is just insane.
When I'm a bit tired, this combination of unstable fps and tearing even causes headaches.

Oh, and I'm sick of that 30fps "the eye can't see" BS. The difference between 30fps and 60fps is FREAKIN' HUGE. And you can still perceive differences up to 120fps, even if, admittedly, it's much more subtle.

I seriously don't get why people see a huge difference, the only true moments in which I sense that the frame drops is in SSR11 rain, and Nurburgring rain, I'm playing Cape Ring at this moment and I don't see the frame drop.

Yes there is a difference between 30fps and 60fps, but the drop is hardly noticeable when there are several elements on screen, needless to say, is even more unnoticeable when you driving, I'm also aware that this differ from person to person, so it could be me, but is not catastrophe as a lot of people claim.

However, I must say that the whole superior 60fps against 30fps counter argument falls flat because there are no dynamic light situations on FM, there are significant reduced particle effects on FM and the tracks and geometries are more simple(doesn't apply to all tracks, because some of them are ported from GT4, however that doesn't exclude Suzuka, and of course London, which has a higher amount of elements on screen compared to NY circuit in FM, which can be consider as the most complex circuit).

jabofu
He said the best he did was to overtake 19 cars in one lap. In another Interview or this, he said that they arent limited with the number of cars on track, but as i stated before, they choose the number of cars that make sense.

Doesn't apply, he said that 19 cars can be overtaken on the track(which seems more like cars that were lapped before), he didn't anything say about 19 cars on the track, apart from that, I wont buy such claims until footage of +12 cars on track is shown.

You still cant dismiss the fact that there are about 200 Premiums in GT5 and not every single one has the great quality you talk about (look of my comparision of Nissan GTR34 on gtplanet). FM 4 will have over 500 cars with cockpit and they look very good from what we have seen yet. The biggest problem of FM3 was the lighting that crippled down some nice looking interiors. A low number of cars in a game can be compensated by a good variety, GT5s premium department lacks of it. They even didnt included icons like the Toyota Supra MarkIV or the Bugatti Veyron.

I'm not mentioning anything about the quality of the GT5 models, and there aren't any profs that 600 cars will be on FM4, needless to say, thus far around 80 models had been shown, with really good quality I admit, but that doesn't take away the fact that most of the cockpits in FM3 were really low poly and really poor in comparison to GT's and even other games like Dirt and Shift(i.e. BMW M3 ALMS, GT-R Calsonic and the Honda fit, just to name a few).
 
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HBK
Oh, and I'm sick of that 30fps "the eye can't see" BS. The difference between 30fps and 60fps is FREAKIN' HUGE. And you can still perceive differences up to 120fps, even if, admittedly, it's much more subtle.
Preach brother, preach!!!!
I don't know how put that junk out but I know my eyes definitely can tell the difference and it's not something I have to sit and concentrate on. It's quite clear.

I'm not mentioning anything about the quality of the GT5 models, and there aren't any profs that 600 cars will be on FM4, needless to say, thus far around 80 models had been shown, with really good quality I admit, but that doesn't take away the fact that most of the cockpits in FM3 were really low poly and really poor in comparison to GT's and even other games like Dirt and Shift(i.e. BMW M3 ALMS, GT-R Calsonic and the Honda fit, just to name a few).
Yeah but the thing is they were THERE! I've posted numerous times that I would have even taken a "generic" cockpit in GT5 as long as something was there for the standards. But no they couldn't do at least that. So if it takes a little "lower quality" cockpit to have EVERY single car in the game have one then so be it. Rather something than nothing.
 
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I'm not mentioning anything about the quality of the GT5 models, and there aren't any profs that 600 cars will be on FM4, needless to say, thus far around 80 models had been shown, with really good quality I admit, but that doesn't take away the fact that most of the cockpits in FM3 were really low poly and really poor in comparison to GT's and even other games like Dirt and Shift(i.e. BMW M3 ALMS, GT-R Calsonic and the Honda fit, just to name a few).
Well, no 🤬, Captain Obvious.

Give any developer 6 months to model 1 car so he can go as far as to model the seat belt buckles & floor mats, & I would expect anything to else to look poor in comparison. But, you know what the downside to that was?
700 cars that didn't have an interior to begin with & were poor in comparison overall to any of Forza 3's cars.

I'll take 400 cars with some decent interiors over 1,000 where over half of them don't have a cockpit view at all.
 
Give any developer 6 months to model 1 car so he can go as far as to model the seat belt buckles & floor mats, & I would expect anything to else to look poor in comparison. But, you know what the downside to that was?
700 cars that didn't have an interior to begin with & were poor in comparison overall to any of Forza 3's cars.

I'll take 400 cars with some decent interiors over 1,000 where over half of them don't have a cockpit view at all.

Yeah but the thing is they were THERE! I've posted numerous times that I would have even taken a "generic" cockpit in GT5 as long as something was there for the standards. But no they couldn't do at least that. So if it takes a little "lower quality" cockpit to have EVERY single car in the game have one then so be it. Rather something than nothing.

Well, I'm not denying that, all that I'm saying is that the cockpits are very inconsistent and really poor in comparison to games like Dirt, Shift, PGR, Test drive and premiums in GT, needless to say, this makes overrates cockpits when they are compared to its counterparts.

@t.o.
I wont report this time, but keep in mind that what you just did goes against the AUP.
 
You mean 80% of them don't have cockpits or current gen graphics.
Well, last I checked, 80% was over half as I said. I wasn't about to start throwing out percentages so someone like akira could re-correct it by 5-10%.

As long as you get my point, though.
 
HBK
I get noticeable amount of steen tearing on Cape Ring. Alone.
On "heavy" tracks like Rome or Madrid, the amount of tearing is just insane.
When I'm a bit tired, this combination of unstable fps and tearing even causes headaches.

Oh, and I'm sick of that 30fps "the eye can't see" BS. The difference between 30fps and 60fps is FREAKIN' HUGE. And you can still perceive differences up to 120fps, even if, admittedly, it's much more subtle.

Well, I'm not denying that, all that I'm saying is that the cockpits are very inconsistent and really poor in comparison to games like Dirt, Shift, PGR, Test drive and premiums in GT, needless to say, this makes overrates cockpits when they are compared to its counterparts.

@t.o.
I wont report this time, but keep in mind that what you just did goes against the AUP.

I dont think that you understand the ratio of quantity of each game. Dirt, Shift, test drive and PGR have a really small amount of cars compared to GT and FM. They have different goals and doesnt compete in physics.

200 cars. That is laughable for a new GT. They had enough time and they could have done it right. They choosed the wrong way and now we have people that never will acknowledge this as a mistage.

The cockpits in FM 3 are not overrated and some of the best in the industry. Sure some GT5 premiums are better, but the price we pay for having those premiums doesnt equal the variety, quality and quantity FM 3 delivers.

I dont think that you or some other people will ever acknowledge Forza to be a real competition to GT or to take the crown of the console simulations away. GT is there since 1997 and lacks of innovation from there on. Most of us enjoyed previous GTs, many since the first, but everyone have to see that GT5 failed to deliver a solid GT experience and that Forza is faster than ever going to let GT behind.
 
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