FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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Well, it was a whole console generation apart. So considering it added big features such as:

New graphics engine
New physics engine
Weather Effects
Night Racing
Track Creation
Online
Considerable amount of new cars
Diverse range of new tracks (City, Dirt, Snow)
And more

I'd say it's fine to call it a proper sequel.

However, with GT6 probably being a PS3 game. I imagine that it will most likely fall into the "Upgrade-style" sequel, like FM4 looks (More small changes rather than big upgrades).

The same comments were made with Forza 1 to Forza 2, where many folks were calling it Forza 1.5. A lot of the features you mentioned were there already like night, dirt, city, etc. Online was in GT5P btw, and they tried bringing it into GT4. Don't really want to get into a list for list argument but personally, going on just the videos, the pics, and the press releases, I see FM4 being a bigger leap forward than FM3 was to FM2 and FM2 was to FM1. Just me and my opinion though..
 
Evolution is a gradual process. Dumping loads of half finished features into an ass of a game that took three times as long to develop as an installment in the Forza series obviously doesn't work.

PD need to sort themselves out.

New graphics engine Blocky, sterile, inconsistent, occasionally brilliant. For the most part looks like a PC sim from 4 yrs ago.
New physics engine Hmmmm... matter of opinion, don't think it's too great and there are glaring errors/corner cutting in a lot of it (tuning, tire system/model, grip loading)
Weather Effects Not integrated properly, graphical glitches abound, slow down but yeah, it's there.
Night Racing Would be helpful if the lights worked properly
Track Creation take it or leave it, seems rushed and the tracks all look like they are based in rural russia, nice feature though. V-rally circa 1999 did it better.
Online don't get me started...
Considerable amount of new cars considerable amount of old ones... Obviously old ones.
Diverse range of new tracks (City, Dirt, Snow) Dirt and snow stages looked like they'd been knocked together in 5 minutes in the track creator
And more

Forza 3 is an evolution of Forza 2, Forza 4 is an evolution of Forza 3. Nice, natural progression. GT5 came out of the womb looking like it spent it's gestation period being injected with gene altering drugs.
 
Well. I guess we differ because I play racing games for the raw race feeling. Which is why I value things like dirt/snow, time of day change and weather over things like your Top gear and Kinect stuff.

I guess Kinect could be entertaining for the kids *Shrugs*

Like I said, it's each to their own. I'm not saying you are wrong. Just that we have different values.
 
Well. I guess we differ because I play racing games for the raw race feeling. Which is why I value things like dirt/snow, time of day change and weather over things like your Top gear and Kinect stuff.

I guess Kinect could be entertaining for the kids *Shrugs*

Like I said, it's each to their own. I'm not saying you are wrong. Just that we have different values.

Seriously, 'for the kids'?

You think the ability to jump to any menu in the game using your voice (unlike the endless menu choices and waiting for menus to load in GT) and headtracking is 'for the kids'?
 
Well. I guess we differ because I play racing games for the raw race feeling. Which is why I value things like dirt/snow, time of day change and weather over things like your Top gear and Kinect stuff.

I guess Kinect could be entertaining for the kids *Shrugs*

Like I said, it's each to their own. I'm not saying you are wrong. Just that we have different values.

That's pretty cheap right there and kinda irrelevant.

I could say that I play racing games for the raw race feeling which is why I value stuff like great private multiplayer options, nice tuning options and engine sounds over things like collecting paint chips and museum cards and driving 4/5th's of the cars in "Hood Ornament" view instead of a proper cockpit view.

But we have different values.

See how that goes?
 
I'd really wish people, including yourself, would stop making such far fetched and outrageous statements concerning the resource management of PD for the simple fact they lack any substance whatsoever.

The management of PD made some decisions concerning the scope, the depth and the width of the current GT game.

They succeeded in many areas and fell short in others. However a project is always a moving target so miscalculations and not achieving set goals is always part of the equation.

Having been trained in management and having worked as a property developer I know first hand you can only throw so much money or staff at a project until you reach the point where you spend more energy managing people than the project itself.

You set priorities, you allocate ressources, you define goals. Sometimes you'll win, sometimes you have to try to limit the damage because your goals were not SMART enough as in specific, measurable, achievable, realistic or (fit in the) timeframe

That's the RISC of ambitious projects.

GT5 was extremely ambitious and PD chose not to sacrifice 60fps for all the stuff they put in GT5. Hi stakes it was, but they pull off a bloody good show in the end and are still making improvements in some areas as visual damage, game play and balancing.

Now if you personally can't acknowledge the results and underlying effort, and in fact have stopped playing the game altogether and not experienced the refined gameplay and content that has been added over the past couple of weeks and months, then that's one thing.

But you're absolutely talking through your hat if you continue to claim there has been mismanagement at any level because your obviously lacking any experience in this field and furthermore can't possibly know (nor correctly guess) the amount of development time and resources spent on things such as game engine, graphics, content, technical overhead, business decisions, licensing or marketing issues.
So either keep your opinions as what they are and dont try to sell speculations as facts by endlessly repeating them or deliver some kind of substance to go with your claims.

They didnt pull off a bloody good show. The pulled off a shoddy one. Very shoddy. Also I played it with the updates. They are un-noticable in most areas....especially the "damage".

So I take it you work for PD? You claim others dont know how it worked...so I guess you do right? Take your own advice.
 
Having been trained in management and having worked as a property developer I know first hand you can only throw so much money or staff at a project until you reach the point where you spend more energy managing people than the project itself.
So, how about the oodles of comments about T10 has soooooo many employees, they're sooo big and they've got sooooo much of an advantage?

Gimme a break...

You set priorities, you allocate ressources, you define goals. Sometimes you'll win, sometimes you have to try to limit the damage because your goals were not SMART enough as in specific, measurable, achievable, realistic or (fit in the) timeframe
And you want to tell me that a highly experienced team with insane amounts of resources isn't responsible for not delivering a damn near flawless project?! I don't know what kind of company you've been working for, but where I work, people would've had their heads ripped off for not setting SMART goals in the first place, that's what you'll do a SWOT analysis (see, I, too, can sling acronyms around) for prior to setting your goals, right?

GT5 was extremely ambitious and PD chose not to sacrifice 60fps for all the stuff they put in GT5. Hi stakes it was, but they pull off a bloody good show in the end and are still making improvements in some areas as visual damage, game play and balancing.
Gameplay?! Felt more like two steps back from anything on current gen consoles. Even a step backwards from GT4.

Anyway, I kinda wonder what kind of 'hi stakes' T10 must've had to not sacrifice 60FPS, shadows or allow screen tearing while managing their two-year time frame quite well - without appearing on lists of "the most expensive games in the hirstory of ever".

But you're absolutely talking through your hat if you continue to claim there has been mismanagement at any level because your obviously lacking any experience in this field and furthermore can't possibly know (nor correctly guess) the amount of development time and resources spent on things such as game engine, graphics, content, technical overhead, business decisions, licensing or marketing issues.
Five years. 80 million dollars. Mediocre result. Compared to a game that takes two years, comes with less inconsistencies and doesn't appear on said lists of expensive games.

What more proof of mismanagement do you need than that?! And, again, I don't know what company you've been managing stuff at, but I sure know that nobody gives a damn about the effort one made at my place. If the results aren't as expected (or better), you're in for some nasty trouble.

So either keep your opinions as what they are and dont try to sell speculations as facts by endlessly repeating them or deliver some kind of substance to go with your claims.
Want an example of substance? Keeping the modelling process in-house when you're running out of time so much that you're missing deadlines multiple times. staying within your timeframe because you refuse to go with the a way that's faster and cheeaper. Wasting time and money like that, if you're already short on the the second and consuming hig amounts of the first: That, right there, is the definition of mismanagement, isn't it?

But, yeah, Mr. Manager, missing your time frames (for example) surely is no sign of mismanagement, right? Because you don't need to plan ahead for possible, upcoming hicups that are bound to arise.

Well. I guess we differ because I play racing games for the raw race feeling. Which is why I value things like dirt/snow, time of day change and weather over things like your Top gear and Kinect stuff.

I guess Kinect could be entertaining for the kids *Shrugs*

Like I said, it's each to their own. I'm not saying you are wrong. Just that we have different values.
You know, I don't hink headtracking is strictly for kids, with games like iRacing supporting that stuff. I also like to set my cars up properly for a track, have proper tyre wear and heat and, dunno, damage my gearbox if I miss a shift. Like, dunno, a real car's would when the engine is suddenly asked to rev to 16.000RPM.

Proper mechanical damage is probably just for the kids, too, right?

They didnt pull off a bloody good show. The pulled off a shoddy one. Very shoddy. Also I played it with the updates. They are un-noticable in most areas....especially the "damage".
Agreed... Timeframe and resources taken into account, I can't see how it's supposed to be a good show.
So I take it you work for PD? You claim others dont know how it worked...so I guess you do right? Take your own advice.
Well... It would explain why his idea of good management seems to coincide with PD's, no?
 
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Well. I guess we differ because I play racing games for the raw race feeling. Which is why I value things like dirt/snow, time of day change and weather over things like your Top gear Samba bus races and Kinect stuff 3D

I guess Kinect could be entertaining for the kids *Shrugs*

Like I said, it's each to their own. I'm not saying you are wrong. Just that we have different values.

And I'm saying you don't have a leg to stand on. Caring about the weather and what time it is makes you a meteorologist, not a racing driver. Yes, weather happens in the real world, but if it doesn't in a game, nothing changes, does it? If it doesn't rain in Forza then it doesn't rain, it's not like the game is any lesser because of that. If all you care about is pure raw race feeling, then why the hell are you wasting time with an inferior 'sim' on a console? Get yourself on to a PC with any one of the 5-6 superior sims available and save us your opinions. If Forza had been released in the state GT5 was then it would have been ripped to shreds by the community. As it was, it was received by the dough eyed fanbase with open arms after 5 years of 'development' time that was actually presumably spent dicking about lighting cigarettes with 40,000 yen notes.

But you're absolutely talking through your hat if you continue to claim there has been mismanagement at any level because your obviously lacking any experience in this field and furthermore can't possibly know (nor correctly guess) the amount of development time and resources spent on things such as game engine, graphics, content, technical overhead, business decisions, licensing or marketing issues.

Leymans terms; 'I've never done an honest days work in my life. I'm a manager and have no connection to the real world and every one of the staff I manage hates me because I'm useless and am unable to see that I am carried by them. I walk around with an undeserved sense of superiority and entitlement because I wear a more expensive tie than everyone else.'

There is a reason every staff culling starts with management. That is because they are the MOST USELESS members of staff. The arrogance your post exuded actually made me spit on the floor.
 
Well. I guess we differ because I play racing games for the raw race feeling. Which is why I value things like dirt/snow, time of day change and weather over things like your Top gear and Kinect stuff.

I guess Kinect could be entertaining for the kids *Shrugs*

Like I said, it's each to their own. I'm not saying you are wrong. Just that we have different values.

Let me get this strait...raw race feeling = Horrible engine sounds, bumper cam, and no worry if you wreck into a wall or another car? Yes...that VW bus race was adrenaline pumping, action packed, real RAW racing :lol:
 
I'd really wish people, including yourself, would stop making such far fetched and outrageous statements concerning the resource management of PD for the simple fact they lack any substance whatsoever.

Really, they lack substance? How many new-to-GT features aren't a mere blip on the radar? They think collecting paints is a worthwhile feature when all of that could have been foregone with a proper palette system with the exact same intent.

The management of PD made some decisions concerning the scope, the depth and the width of the current GT game.

Is that why licenses serve absolutely no worthwhile purpose in GT5, completely contradicting their worth in the previous 4 games? Is that why GT5 lacks features Prologue introduced or continued on from the previous 4 games? Is that why post-race game saves are absent, despite having been a worthwhile feature in both 3 and 4? Is that why the Jaguar XFR, despite being completely new to the game in every sense is a Standard? Is that why the immediate career mode pales in comparison to GT2, 3, and 4 (Can't recall the length of 1's career mode, hence why it's get no mention)?

So they definitely made some choices regarding the scope, depth, and width of the game alright. Just not what I'd call wise ones.


They succeeded in many areas and fell short in others. However a project is always a moving target so miscalculations and not achieving set goals is always part of the equation.

This would be a probable point worth getting into, if it weren't for the fact that everything (besides the entirely new features) weren't already done previously. And better might I add.

You set priorities, you allocate ressources, you define goals. Sometimes you'll win, sometimes you have to try to limit the damage because your goals were not SMART enough as in specific, measurable, achievable, realistic or (fit in the) timeframe.

And yet GT1, 2, 3, and 4 are an exact testament to the contrary. You make it sound as if PD made their first GT on any platform, ever. GT5 does very few things properly, and being a 'game' is not one of them.

That's the RISC of ambitious projects.

Surely you meant "risk" here? Otherwise, I have no idea what an instruction set has to do with anything...

GT5 was extremely ambitious and PD chose not to sacrifice 60fps for all the stuff they put in GT5. Hi stakes it was, but they pull off a bloody good show in the end and are still making improvements in some areas as visual damage, game play and balancing.

Except it does sacrifice 60 frames, almost all of the time.

Now if you personally can't acknowledge the results and underlying effort, and in fact have stopped playing the game altogether and not experienced the refined gameplay and content that has been added over the past couple of weeks and months, then that's one thing.

Refined gameplay and content? If you're referring to the Seasonal Events (that, by the way, only exist to compensate for the "one-hit wonder" career mode), or the racing gear, or anything else that doesn't really add anything new to the game -- I wouldn't really call any of that "refined". No, instead, I'd call it what it is -- the compensation for the lack of everything else.

But you're absolutely talking through your hat if you continue to claim there has been mismanagement at any level because your obviously lacking any experience in this field and furthermore can't possibly know (nor correctly guess) the amount of development time and resources spent on things such as game engine, graphics, content, technical overhead, business decisions, licensing or marketing issues.

Much of this entire statement is largely irrelevant as much of this was already established (or in the case of GTHD, conceptualized) by the time Prologue hit the shelves. What's more is some were further improved upon in the TT Demo and GT PSP.
 
Console racers don't usually go that far in-depth.

For that, you should be looking into PC sims.

Forza, Shift, Ferrari Challenge, Supercar Challenge, DiRT, That other NFS game (Pro Street?), GRiD (I think). I could go on but you get the idea.

I'd advise you to stop making yourself appear stupid now.
 
They said all that was in FM3 (Remember back). It wasn't. So you'll have to understand why I'm still a bit skeptical ("We laser scaned the 'ring!".... yeah, and missed nearly every single bump :/)

On a more light-hearted note.

Forza fans are all boasting that the permanent steering aid can now be fully disabled....

Yet, they always swore blind that there never was a permanent steering aid :P

BOOM.
 
They said all that was in FM3 (Remember back). It wasn't. So you'll have to understand why I'm still a bit skeptical ("We laser scaned the 'ring!".... yeah, and missed nearly every single bump :/)

On a more light-hearted note.

Forza fans are all boasting that the permanent steering aid can now be fully disabled....

Yet, they always swore blind that there never was a permanent steering aid :P

BOOM.

How come you never address a reply someone has made to you in regard to an issue you bring up with FM but instead bring up another issue to try and flame FM with?
 
I flamed FM?

I apologise :(

Nope, you tried but failed ;)

Why not respond to some of the people calling you out on the claims you made? Why not start with the points I raised about kinect? That way you might gain some respect because at the moment you just look like someone who wants to rag on FM.
 
They said all that was in FM3 (Remember back). It wasn't. So you'll have to understand why I'm still a bit skeptical ("We laser scaned the 'ring!".... yeah, and missed nearly every single bump :/)

On a more light-hearted note.

Forza fans are all boasting that the permanent steering aid can now be fully disabled....

Yet, they always swore blind that there never was a permanent steering aid :P

BOOM.

So you didnt know tire pressure was a tuning setting in all those games that Terronium listed? Well except Grid.

Have you even played anything but GT5??? I am going to guess not.
 
Oh, GRiD doesn't have it? I wouldn't know...I only played it all of five minutes before chucking it. I just presumed. :lol:
 
Forza is a complete, well rounded game (any of them).

GT5 isn't.

BOOM.

It's odd you couldn't 'feel' the hit of your own argument slapping you in the face as PZR, Luminis and Terronium utterly tied you in knots at the end of the last page.

P.S.

You aren't connected to anything when playing a game. 90% of what you input via the controller is based on visual and audio cues, maybe a small percentage in FFB. Even that is based on the Dev's interpretation of what they reckon you should feel when you hit a curb or run off the road. 'Feel' is an illusion and one's own interpretation can differ greatly from someone elses.
 
Oh, GRiD doesn't have it? I wouldn't know...I only played it all of five minutes before chucking it. I just presumed. :lol:

No, tuning at all. Its total arcade, but if you go in knowing that it has the best career mode and some of the best replays in a game I have played. Definitly not for everyone but a blast for what it is.
 
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