FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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Well considering that we were discussing Polyphony Digitals management of the Gran Turismo franchise in comparison to how Turn 10 handles the Forza Motorsport series, it should be incredibly obvious.



You might have a point if sales figures were being used as evidence as to why one franchise is better than the other, but since they're not Terronium-12 and yourself are just being silly and missing the point completely.

Funny you should mention "they're not", since, according to my recollection, you brought up and I quote: "...they released four very successful games that sold ridiculous amounts of copies". No one before you attempted to pass off the amount a game has sold as being paramount to how well managed their resources are.

Care to try again?
 
Funny you should still try to pick faults with a discussion that you clearly paid no attention to since like I stated in the post that you quoted, nobody has tried to claim sales figures as a reason why one game is better than the other.

Care to try again?
 
Actually it is not a fact that PD mismanaged the franchise, it is only your opinion. If you look at it from a business perspective and the fact that they released four very successful games that sold ridiculous amounts of copies (this isn't debateable I'm afraid) then they've managed their time and resources very well,

Four games, out of the six games they released. I'm taking business classes right now and I can tell you that PD did mismanage the game.

especially compared to Turn 10 who have not managed to release as many games or achieve similar sales figures in the same timeframe.

They haven't, because they've been around since 2005, compared to PD which was from 1997. What you fail to realize is that Turn 10 released three Forza games in the time it took for GT5 to be released. Add to the fact that the Forza series has delivered 99% of the features they promised, plus they've been in direct contact to their community. Something I haven't seen PD do forever.

If you try to state that PD mismanaged their resources however and neglected their core business, well there's an overwhelming amount of evidence that disagrees with your stance.

And even more evidence to go against your claim.

I think the problem here is that because you didn't like GT5 you're trying to use your personal opinion on a videogame as some kind of justification for PD failing as a business when the numbers dictate otherwise. I think that's the main problem with certain peoples stances regarding this debate in general really, they're letting personal feelings interfere with looking at the situation objectively from the outside.

I'm not. And I agree with the majority here.

I think GT5 is a good game for what it is. But for what they promised, it's a huge disapointment. Therefore whenever I play it, I tend to think in the, enjoy what it's got, mindset.

Forza 3 is a good game for what it is too. It's a good game for what Turn 10 Promised as well. It's quite amazing that T10 managed to create three great and well-rounded games in a shorter amount of time it took to create GT5. Therefore PD didn't manage the time they were given. Six years is two long to make a game. Most game developers make games in two or three years.
 
Funny you should still try to pick faults with a discussion that you clearly paid no attention to since like I stated in the post that you quoted, nobody has tried to claim sales figures as a reason why one game is better than the other.

Care to try again?

I'm going to go ahead and presume that you either missed, misread, or outright ignored the part where I said:

No one before you attempted to pass off the amount a game has sold as being paramount to how well managed their resources are.

Referencing what I said or implied earlier is irrelevant, considering now I'm addressing what you said directly, not indirectly.
 
Obviously GT5 is mismanaged as it's missing over 800 cockpits.

Obviously Forza 4 is mismanaged as it's missing a few hundred Autovista models, varying times of day for all tracks, nevermind various tracks from Forza 3 as well as an assortment of cars that were also in the previous version of the game. Heck, where's the dynamic weather? Dynamic time of day? Track creator? Rally racing? Splitscreen? 3D?

I mean jeez, the game is obviously mismanaged if it doesn't have all the features and content that I want :rolleyes:

I'm going to go ahead and presume that you either missed, misread, or outright ignored the part where I said:

Referencing what I said or implied earlier is irrelevant, considering now I'm addressing what you said directly, not indirectly.

I'm going to go ahead and presume that you either missed, misread, or outright ignored the part where you said:

Exactly. That's the only reason people (especially here) ever reference sales numbers, because it's "obvious" that what has sold more is obviously the better product.

Keep trying to dance around it as much as you want, fact is you said something dumb and I called you out on it. You can try and shuffle around it as much as you want but the point is that I already answered and pointed out why you were wrong (mainly your lack of reading comprehension).
 
Da-Bomber
Obviously GT5 is mismanaged as it's missing over 800 cockpits.

Yep. It's as simple as this really. No other racing game features a two-tiered car roster.

I don't know if the blame lies squarely with mismanagement. Personally I think PD got their priorities wrong by going for quantity over quality. I also think they have shown themselves to be out if touch with the modern games industry.

Whatever, they made many poor decisions with GT5, which is partly mismanagement whichever way you look at it. Whether this damages the Gran Turismo brand in future remains to be seen. I know I certainly won't be running out to buy GT6 on day one.
 
Actually sales figures are very relevant to the dicussion that is taking place so please try to refrain from telling people what they can and can not talk about, that privilege is reserved solely for the moderators of this forum.
Sales figures are relevant to one thing, and one thing only: Themselves.

Using them in any other way, which you have been doing by claiming that they are relevant to product management, is a logical fallacy. Period.


Obviously Forza 4 is mismanaged as it's missing a few hundred Autovista models, varying times of day for all tracks, nevermind various tracks from Forza 3 as well as an assortment of cars that were also in the previous version of the game. Heck, where's the dynamic weather? Dynamic time of day? Track creator? Rally racing? Splitscreen? 3D?

I mean jeez, the game is obviously mismanaged if it doesn't have all the features and content that I want :rolleyes:
>Implying that that is even remotely the same argument.

Funny you should still try to pick faults with a discussion that you clearly paid no attention to since like I stated in the post that you quoted, nobody has tried to claim sales figures as a reason why one game is better than the other.

Care to try again?
I'm going to go ahead and presume that you either missed, misread, or outright ignored the part where you said:
Do you really think this makes you look intelligent?

Or you could have just included them in the first place, which is your prerogative rather than his.
 
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On the contrary it seems to be you who cannot accept reality, there are cold hard facts that you're attempting to dispute with opinion. I suppose it is best that you end it here if your only rebuttal to factual information is "I don't like certain aspects of GT5". L to the O to the L indeed. Maybe try again once you learn the difference between fact and opinion?

It is fact. There's proof all over the game. Where else does the full release of a game have the majority of it's content being of lesser quality than the Prologue of said game? Or like mentioned, 2 tiers of cars in the first place?
 
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This is a lost argument really, what is considered to be well done/enough is depended on your expectations and how much slack you cut the developers.

I'll say the truth is closer to what the general opinion is regarding GT's project management, lets just leave it at that.
 
Obviously Forza 4 is mismanaged as it's missing a few hundred Autovista models, varying times of day for all tracks, nevermind various tracks from Forza 3 as well as an assortment of cars that were also in the previous version of the game. Heck, where's the dynamic weather? Dynamic time of day? Track creator? Rally racing? Splitscreen? 3D?

.

Oh I must have forgot when Turn 10 said they would do those features within this release. Oh they didn't? Okay then I guess this post is useless.
They said limited amount of autovista cars. True
They said varying times of day for several tracks. True
A few tracks are missing but at least we got a heads up instead of waiting for release. Also due to EA we have lost many Porsche cars but other than Porsche you can't claim how many cars we actually lost until the game releases and we compare.
As for the rest of those features that were never promised, if only they included those features to the highest of standard like GT5 did. Oh wait.....
 
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Sales figures are relevant to one thing, and one thing only: Themselves.

Using them in any other way, which you have been doing by claiming that they are relevant to product management, is a logical fallacy. Period.

You clearly haven't been following the discussion. If you look back on the last page you will see cuco33 state that Polyphony Digital has mismanaged the franchise, pointing out disapproval for their side projects, allocation of resources and neglecting their core business of making videogames.

Responding to these criticisms by pointing out that they have released 4 highly successful games since the release of GT4 is relevant. It demonstrates how they have in fact not neglected their core business, have done a brilliant job of allocating what little resources that they have and managed the franchise incredibly well.

Whether anybody thinks that the games are bad or not is irrelevant since at the time sales figures were brought up, business was the topic of discussion, and sales are relevant to business.

>Implying that that is even remotely the same argument.

It is. If you can't see how I'm not sure what to say really since it should be glaringly obvious. Complaining about GT5 only having time of day on certain tracks but giving FM4 a pass for having the exact same problem is hypocritical. Why can Turn 10 get away with a feature that isn't universal when PD can't? Why is it terrible management when GT5 only has 200 premium cars, but when Turn 10's Autovista mode only supports 25 cars it's fine? If you're only willing to point fault at one and not the other then it's blatant hypocrisy and fanboyism. Period.

Do you really think this makes you look intelligent?

I was paraphrasing. If I was desperate to make people on the internet think that I'm intelligent I'd pick a unique font and colour for my posts and bold all of my sentances.

Or you could have just included them in the first place, which is your prerogative rather than his.

Turn 10's habit of outsourcing content creation isn't exactly a big secret.

Oh I must have forgot when Turn 10 said they would do those features within this release. Oh they didn't? Okay then I guess this post is useless.

The point went right over your head there didn't it?
 
Just like how GT5 is mismanaged went over yours? Just FM vs GT in this thread. The fact is that Forza has better management than GT going by GT5 getting absolutely no DLC or having 1000 cars and 800 of them all possible on the PSP(I'm pretty sure Kaz did not promise but Sony did about the DLC.) I know Forza 3 is mismanaged to an extent but GT5 breaks the record.
 
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So, how about the oodles of comments about T10 has soooooo many employees, they're sooo big and they've got sooooo much of an advantage?

Gimme a break...

And the right answer would be looking at the budget. It's been assumed that every year's worth of developing time cost roughly 10 mil. This time not only went into GT5, but also GT5P, GTPSP and various non game related projects.

I saw the question raised what developing the GUI for the GT-R would have to do with making GT. Well, it further strengthend the bond between PD and the car industry on a level seldom seen. Whereas T10 was overjoyed by the fact they had the R8 on their cover, PD not only gave away one of the SLS cars they had on their cover but had their next scoop witht the recent Coulthard stunt on the TGTT. Not to mention the GT-Academy. Nissan and Mercedes were obviously quite content with what they saw and they shed some serious money on the joint marketing venture.

You have to factor out the differences and see if you can come up with compareable figures. And I'd say PD hadn't been doing this bad over the past 5 years.

That is if you think making a game like GT5 selling for roughly the same price as let's say Uncharted 2 is a good idea. Which it isn't. I got maybe 25 hours worth of gameplay out of Uncharted 2, and I enjoyed it very much. For the same kind of money, I got at least 250 hours out of GT5 and I'm far from done yet. GT5 has stopped me from buying other racing games (sorry to say I didn't pick up Shift 2 because EA pulled the plug) - in fact from buying other games alltogether.

As these kinds of numbers are never revealed to the public, one can only guess. But lack of manpower/mismanagement is not a valid counterpoint.

And you want to tell me that a highly experienced team with insane amounts of resources isn't responsible for not delivering a damn near flawless project?! I don't know what kind of company you've been working for, but where I work, people would've had their heads ripped off for not setting SMART goals in the first place, that's what you'll do a SWOT analysis (see, I, too, can sling acronyms around) for prior to setting your goals, right?

In terms of game breaking glitches, GT5 is doing rather well compared to Shift, GRID, and in fact Forza 3. In Shift the first version had the hopping bug, which made some of the cars basically undriveabe, and had problems with the setups. As had Forza 3 with the rebound settings IIRC, the AWD glitch, the general glitch of cars bottoming out and not affecting handling (thus a pentalty was introduced). In that respect, GT 5 is near as makes no difference flawless.

So, again, if you know the trade, then you should bloody well know that throwing people at a problem solves, in the most cases, nothing.

Secondly before you even start thinking about outsourcing, you have to do your sourcing. You need to get people in that work to your standards, that understand your way of communication and that fit into your company culture.

I spent an awful amount of time gathering all the contractors I needed because skilled people being willing to work to your standards, time frame and demands are very hard to find. By the time you got all trades in, you can seriously think about taking them on board alltogether. If you do outsource, you'll probably find yourself in a position where in the end you spend alot of time and money just covering up.

Outsourcing is not an easy venture. But you and others make it sound like you can find talent round every corner, willing to work for no money, are loyal to your company and deliver the desired product effortlessly.

Gameplay?! Felt more like two steps back from anything on current gen consoles. Even a step backwards from GT4.

Anyway, I kinda wonder what kind of 'hi stakes' T10 must've had to not sacrifice 60FPS, shadows or allow screen tearing while managing their two-year time frame quite well - without appearing on lists of "the most expensive games in the hirstory of ever".


Five years. 80 million dollars. Mediocre result. Compared to a game that takes two years, comes with less inconsistencies and doesn't appear on said lists of expensive games.

That's because FM3 is hardly another game than FM2 was. They haven't done anything new apart from adding content in the form of some cars and tracks. The basic engine is still largely the same as used in FM2. And yes, I'd like to mention that the 100% cockpits just don't cut the cake. They are sub par and not up to next gen standard. And even pulling that off gave T10 a very hard time.

I'm curious to see how they improved all this with FM4, but as I take it if you want night racing and/or weather, only SHift2 and GT5 will do. It's "easy" to release a game every two years if you don't maintain the current version (having been FM2) and just tidy up the things you should have done right in the first place. And I can't see they made a mobile version either.

Want an example of substance? Keeping the modelling process in-house when you're running out of time so much that you're missing deadlines multiple times. staying within your timeframe because you refuse to go with the a way that's faster and cheeaper. Wasting time and money like that, if you're already short on the the second and consuming hig amounts of the first: That, right there, is the definition of mismanagement, isn't it?

As I said above, outsourcing is not the cheapest nor fastest way under any circumstance. You have to prove it that it can be done, by hard cold numers, and even then the fighting begins concerning the numbers.

Now watch and learn, because I have a very good, maybe the ultimate example, of outsourcing gone wrong: Smart, the car company. Mercedes Benz thought it a good idea to outsource 100% of all manufacturing. Let the supliers do their bit, coble the car together in a shed, and all Smart Inc. does it do the sales and bills the customer. They blew this big time, because either cables didn't fit because they were a bit too short (well, the suplier had to make some money too, didn't he?) or the parts were not the right colour or number because communication broke down or failed.

I have some personal experience with this and I have to say, outsourcing is one tricky business and nothing done in a heartbeat when you are in a hurry. Unless of course you don't give a damn about the results.

But, yeah, Mr. Manager, missing your time frames (for example) surely is no sign of mismanagement, right? Because you don't need to plan ahead for possible, upcoming hicups that are bound to arise.

Missing the time frame is indeed a thing to blame on PD. Along with some bad communication and strange marketing.

But then again it is visible that PD is still working (hard) on GT5, and I for one am very happy being able to play GT5 since last christmas. There's new content been added and PD does still work on the (graphics) engine and it shows. Maybe GT5 doesn't looking as stunning in HD than GT4 did in SD, sure, but whereas FM3 was just a sequel of sorts, GT5 is infact covering new ground.

They did bite more than they could chew, but when it works (night racing on Le Sarthe/Nordschleife, sunrises after it stopped raining, the classic Jag, Alfa and Ferrari racers) it bloody well blows everything on consoles out of the water. Being able to run 1000 cars with the new physics engine is more than enough to keep me happy.

Though, I have to say, the PS3 and (thus?) GT5 is lagging in online features and ease of use.
 
Gt5 did accomplish quite a bit for a standing (fresh) start. They helped set a new standard others can follow and implement on in their own ways for a fun while. I couldnt agree with those that believe that gt5 is king, but i would certainly disagree with those who also call it nothing. To me, with how the cons were with the 5th release, I dont see this being a FULLY meets expectations game up until the 8th release( and please dont respond with "oh have fun waiting 15+ some odd years) gt5 was a literal scrape off all and start all over kind of thing... And yes the thought of standards alone is quite a let down, but im sort of happy I have the oppertunity to drive certain cars that are not premium (xj220, 70's era muscle cars, dtm, late 90's/early 00's JGTC, etc.) that I agree is PD's mistake for gt5. They focused too much on variety, and lost the thought of quality. For a big portion of you, 80% of the game is a bore. But for that small portion of us, we love that small 20% that it delivers...

!Edit! And might I add, 15% of that is due to the online community. Its finally getting to that point where all the phony racers are giving up and moving on.
 
between the release of GT4 and GT5:



Polyphony Digital: Tourist Trophy, Gran Turismo 5 Prologue, GT PSP, GT5



Turn 10: Forza 1, Forza 2, Forza 3

Plus, I can hardly see how GT5P, being a WIP version of GT5. And GTPSP being a port of GT4.



Also, if you're going to reply to this by whining about the numbers of staff like in the post I'm quoting below, please try to think about the point I'm making first.

You had a point besides "they aren't at fault for not modelling more premium cars/putting more work into other features because they're a small team"?
And the right answer would be looking at the budget. It's been assumed that every year's worth of developing time cost roughly 10 mil. This time not only went into GT5, but also GT5P, GTPSP and various non game related projects.
I'll refer you to the points that were made about these games already.

GT5P being a WIP of GT5, GTPSP being just a port of GT4.

Well, it further strengthend the bond between PD and the car industry on a level seldom seen.
and what, exactly, did that bond do for us players? It's cool for PD, but did it anything to further the game?

You have to factor out the differences and see if you can come up with compareable figures. And I'd say PD hadn't been doing this bad over the past 5 years.
Not bad in what regard? Sales? They obviously didn't.

Did they meet their deadlines? Did they get the same high ratings as they did with their older products? Did they get ahead of the competition anywhere near as much as they did before?

That is if you think making a game like GT5 selling for roughly the same price as let's say Uncharted 2 is a good idea. Which it isn't. I got maybe 25 hours worth of gameplay out of Uncharted 2, and I enjoyed it very much. For the same kind of money, I got at least 250 hours out of GT5 and I'm far from done yet. GT5 has stopped me from buying other racing games (sorry to say I didn't pick up Shift 2 because EA pulled the plug) - in fact from buying other games alltogether.
You're mixing up the customer's side of the things with the company's side of things. Doesn't amtter how much time they're getting out of it, does it? What matters is the budget you spent on it...

As these kinds of numbers are never revealed to the public, one can only guess. But lack of manpower/mismanagement is not a valid counterpoint.
What numbers are you speaking of, exactly? The time one can spend with a game?

I know a fair lot of people who've gotten more time out of Uncharted 2's multiplayer than out of all of GT5. So I fail to see the relevance here.

As had Forza 3 with the rebound settings IIRC, the AWD glitch, the general glitch of cars bottoming out and not affecting handling (thus a pentalty was introduced). In that respect, GT 5 is near as makes no difference flawless.
You refer to that as gamebreaking glitches, while having different physics for online and offline, while not being able to save the different tunes you need is 'near as makes no difference to flawless'? That's a bit odd, isn't it?

So, again, if you know the trade, then you should bloody well know that throwing people at a problem solves, in the most cases, nothing.
And I'd assume that someone who knows management would know fairly well that the solution always depends on the problem. Not being able to handle a workload simply based on the amount of manhours is a problem that is perfectly well solved by increasing the amount of people working on the project.

Adding more people to the management team won't solve anything (in most cases), true. Deviding an easily devidable workload amongst more employees will usually speed up an unneccessary slow process.

I spent an awful amount of time gathering all the contractors I needed because skilled people being willing to work to your standards, time frame and demands are very hard to find. By the time you got all trades in, you can seriously think about taking them on board alltogether. If you do outsource, you'll probably find yourself in a position where in the end you spend alot of time and money just covering up.
That is why you properly analyse your situation continuously: To react in time to those conditions. The moment they realised it took them months in man hours should've been the moment for PD to start thinking about another way to handle the workload, instead of keeping it inhouse with the same amount of workers.

And that would have been more than enough time to find a proper contractor. If they haven't noticed that they're spending way too much time modelling the cars after, say, three and a half years, that option would've gone right out of the window, of course. But you'd have to ask yourself: What kind of manager would somethign like that go on for that long?

Outsourcing is not an easy venture. But you and others make it sound like you can find talent round every corner, willing to work for no money, are loyal to your company and deliver the desired product effortlessly.
Nobody is saying it's done effortlessy or for free, I think. Just that it saves you money and time if you're reacting to the situation at hand in time.

That's because FM3 is hardly another game than FM2 was. They haven't done anything new apart from adding content in the form of some cars and tracks. The basic engine is still largely the same as used in FM2. And yes, I'd like to mention that the 100% cockpits just don't cut the cake. They are sub par and not up to next gen standard. And even pulling that off gave T10 a very hard time.
But GT5's 800 cars with no cockpits at all is fine? GT5 lacking gameplay features that have been standard on the last generation (like saving at the end of a race or saving tunes) is fine?

I'm curious to see how they improved all this with FM4, but as I take it if you want night racing and/or weather, only SHift2 and GT5 will do. It's "easy" to release a game every two years if you don't maintain the current version (having been FM2) and just tidy up the things you should have done right in the first place. And I can't see they made a mobile version either.
They also didn't release 'glorified demos' or 'ported games'.

Also, I've said this countless times before, if people are not willing to acknowledge that FM4, for example, is adding quite some new features, that's something I can't do anything about. Aside from calling it false, of course.


As I said above, outsourcing is not the cheapest nor fastest way under any circumstance. You have to prove it that it can be done, by hard cold numers, and even then the fighting begins concerning the numbers.

Now watch and learn, because I have a very good, maybe the ultimate example, of outsourcing gone wrong: Smart, the car company. Mercedes Benz thought it a good idea to outsource 100% of all manufacturing. Let the supliers do their bit, coble the car together in a shed, and all Smart Inc. does it do the sales and bills the customer. They blew this big time, because either cables didn't fit because they were a bit too short (well, the suplier had to make some money too, didn't he?) or the parts were not the right colour or number because communication broke down or failed.
And I can give you the perfect counterexample.

Our callcenter has more customer data available to call the customers than they could properly handle in time. Much like PD had too much workload for their timeframe to be kept. Hence, we started outsourcing to get things done in time - and it's working perfecty fine.

Finding the contractors took aboutfive or six motnhs, esatblishing all the security measures needed when working with sensible data took another two.

Again, nobody's saying that outsourcing works under all circumstances and solves every problem. The problem PD had with modelling more premium cars, though, could have been solved if they decided to outsource as they noticed the amount of workload.

I have some personal experience with this and I have to say, outsourcing is one tricky business and nothing done in a heartbeat when you are in a hurry. Unless of course you don't give a damn about the results.
I don't know your time frames, but given how much time PD had on their hands, they would have had plenty of time to take care of the outsourcing - again, if they were wise enough to constantly analyse their workload, their deadlines and their progress.

If they didn't do that, well, that's no better, is it?

Missing the time frame is indeed a thing to blame on PD. Along with some bad communication and strange marketing.
Among other things, yes.

But then again it is visible that PD is still working (hard) on GT5, and I for one am very happy being able to play GT5 since last christmas. There's new content been added and PD does still work on the (graphics) engine and it shows. Maybe GT5 doesn't looking as stunning in HD than GT4 did in SD, sure, but whereas FM3 was just a sequel of sorts, GT5 is infact covering new ground.
Given the gap between GT4 and GT5, they've had a lot of new ground to cover just to close the gap to the competition.

Also, there are still features missing that have been printed on the back of the (I know, that point has been made countless times, but still).

They did bite more than they could chew, but when it works (night racing on Le Sarthe/Nordschleife, sunrises after it stopped raining, the classic Jag, Alfa and Ferrari racers) it bloody well blows everything on consoles out of the water. Being able to run 1000 cars with the new physics engine is more than enough to keep me happy.
And when it doesn't work (when driving one of the 80% of standard cars, when you're on a track that doesn't support weather or time change - the mayority of tracks doesn't, by the way, when the graphics are again tearing or dropping frames, when shadows flicker or smoke and rain pixelate your car, when the physics change between online and offline, when you can't save within a championship, when you realize the customization is more than just limited, when the standard cars don't have acces to a feature you want to use, when trying to actually play through the single palyer career), it is blown out of the water itself.

That is what I've been criticising about GT5 so much: It's schizophrenic. it goes from 'cream of the crop' to 'rock-bottom last' in a splitsecond.

Don't get me wrong, I positively loved GT5 when it worked. Coming out of a rainy night on the 'Ring, driving into a sunny dawn was great. However, thise experiences were few and far between. And that 'between' put me off - big time.

Though, I have to say, the PS3 and (thus?) GT5 is lagging in online features and ease of use.
As far as online features go, I think it is to be expected... MS gathered a lot of experience and expertise with XBL and Windows Live. Still, being very, well, basic in that regard is just another flaw, yeah.

This is a stupid comparison. Well let's see which one would have sold more, if they cost the same.
The Corolla, because Ferrari would've gone bankrupt halfway through.
 
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ItsHim
But then again it is visible that PD is still working (hard) on GT5,


Agreed.

It would be nice if the small, hardworking team were focusing on GT6 after nearly a year after release but you can't have it all.

Do a job right in the beginning and you won't have to repair it everytime a glitch pops up.

12 patches and people are still finding faults.

Glad they never built a skyscraper or bridge or something like that.
 
The Corolla, because Ferrari would've gone bankrupt halfway through.
And how many corollas would have been sold for the price of the F40? Just as i said, it's a stupid comparison. In my opinion, sales figures of video games do matter. Actually it might be even the most important thing for a game producer.
 
Fact is, both FM and GT have pros and cons.

GT does some things better than FM and FM does some things better than GT.

I don't think an objective conclusion can be reached as to which is better. I'm just happy that those of us with both consoles can enjoy both franchises.

The important thing for me is that both games have 100's of cars that can be tested and driven on multiple tracks 👍
 
And how many corollas would have been sold for the price of the F40? Just as i said, it's a stupid comparison. In my opinion, sales figures of video games do matter. Actually it might be even the most important thing for a game producer.
For them? Yeah, they're probably very important indeed. Does it make the game better for you if it sold well?

GT5 selling millions of copies sure didn't turn a single standard car to premium, did it?
 
And how many corollas would have been sold for the price of the F40? Just as i said, it's a stupid comparison. In my opinion, sales figures of video games do matter. Actually it might be even the most important thing for a game producer.

Not true, so iRacing, rFactor, GTR2 are not as good as the GT series because they havent sold as much?
 
For them? Yeah, they're probably very important indeed. Does it make the game better for you if it sold well?

GT5 selling millions of copies sure didn't turn a single standard car to premium, did it?

Not for me but it makes it a better game for the management. Well more than 6 Million people still bought the game with its standard cars and all its other faults. GT5 is still the best-selling video game for the PlayStation 3. For a games producer the sales figures will always be the most important thing, much more important than favorable reviews or a high metacritic ranking.
Sure most of my favourite cars are standard, but if i want to drive a premium car, i was always able to find a suitable one. Actually i almostrace only on Nordschleife and it's on this track where GT really shines and is obviously superior to forza 3. The Forza 3 Nordschleife is just crap. But there are no premium cars who really raced on Nordschleife 24h. M3 GTR, Oreca Viper, Opel DTM, R8 LMS and some more where all winner cars but they are all standard. In the end, if you want to take a premium Nordschleife 24h car, you have to choose the Lexus ISF Racing Concept, which is Opel DTM with a new badge.
 
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Not true, so iRacing, rFactor, GTR2 are not as good as the GT series because they havent sold as much?

As a franchise they are by far not as successful as the GT Series. For every iRacing player there are 155 GT5 Players! iRacing, rfactor and GTR2 are better simulators than GT5 but maybe not games. I have to admit Forza 3 might a better game than GT5 to the average guy. PD might have sold much more copies if they had focused on making their product even more mainstream. Although i prefer the GT series , i am really glad that Forza is around and i will buy every game and DLC they release.
 
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Actually i almostrace only on Nordschleife and it's on this track where GT really shines and is obviously superior to forza 3. The Forza 3 Nordschleife is just crap.
So, if I want GT5 to shine, I have to limit my choices to one or two tracks and 20% of the cars it offers.

See, that's why sales figures don't tell you anything. If they're high enough for the developer to keep the franchise around, that's when I stop caring.

I am, in fact, of the opinion, that sales figures that are very high will cause the game to get worse as the developer starts to get lazy. When you get to the point that people will buy a turd in a box just because of the title of the game, that's when whole franchises go downhill.
 
In my opinion, sales figures of video games do matter. Actually it might be even the most important thing for a game producer.

I completely disagree, ask yourself how many people would have bought GT5 unless they knew what it was?

The sales they got just purely because of the games already hight stature from previous titles would easily make up a high percentage (guess around 3/4 - 75%) of total sales. So that is people buying not on how good the game is but how good the previous games were.

Then you have to remember GT series is around 8 years longer running series than Forza - it had 8 years to build a massive fanbase who will 'instabuy' every GT title (including myself) no matter how bad it may be.
 
As a franchise they are by far not as successful as the GT Series. For every iRacing player there are 155 GT5 Players! iRacing, rfactor and GTR2 are better simulators than GT5 but maybe not games. I have to admit Forza 3 might a better game than GT5 to the average guy. PD might have sold much more copies if they had focused on making their product even more mainstream. Although i prefer the GT series , i am really glad that Forza is around and i will buy every game and DLC they release.

Where have you been?
The game was marketed as some ultra-badass crazy racing game. In most trailers for the game pre-release the only mentions of simulation of any kind were either small text somewhere along the middle of the trailer, or "The real driving simulator"
Like this:


To the average person they see these trailers and just fall in line. The only people who knew that it was, or rather, believed it was, going for a serious simulation are either long time fans or people who do their research. Unfortunately the only material available for research was marketing material, so almost everyone believed the game was going to be something that it just isn't.

The game was marketed to be mainstream.

And sales don't mean a better game, they mean better marketing.
 
GT has by far the biggest PR push in mainstream media of all console sim titles, and that alone has generated a lot of sales from the casual fan base. When GT5 came out it was literally like the second coming of Jesus lol.
 

The game was marketed to be mainstream.

And sales don't mean a better game, they mean better marketing.
So what? Marketing is part of the management. If you make the best game ever and fail to sell it, you are going still going to be fired. By not being mainstream enough , I meant it in comparison to forza, which has a much better interface.
 
So what? Marketing is part of the management. If you make the best game ever and fail to sell it, you are going still going to be fired.
Actually, no, marketing is marketing and has their own management aside from the actual project (usually, anyways). Simply because managing PR takes a different approach than managing the project (or in this case, product).

Also, selling well because of the badge that is on the cover of the game is great and all. The question is, how long can you do so before the games takes a serious hit?

I wouldn't want GT5 to become the CoD of the driving world (with much slower releases, though).
 
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