FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Minty]

So what? Marketing is part of the management. If you make the best game ever and fail to sell it, you are going still going to be fired. By not being mainstream enough , I meant it in comparison to forza, which has a much better interface.

That is entirely not my point.

Are you paying attention to the argument?
You said the game would've sold better had it been marketed with a mainstream focus....which it was.

And how the hell does the UI make it mainstream? What the hell are you talking about?

 

[Vaxxtx]

That is entirely not my point.

Are you paying attention to the argument?
You said the game would've sold better had it been marketed with a mainstream focus....which it was.

And how the hell does the UI make it mainstream? What the hell are you talking about?

I gave up a while ago trying to debate certain points with some people on this thread, because they seem to totally miss the point, not answer questions, and then go off in a different direction. I feel many have been brainwashed to believe PD is pretty much god, and nothing they do can be wrong...ever.

I feel your frustration

 

[Raitziger]

And sales don't mean a better game, they mean better marketing.

GT5 sold like it did because history of the series, not because marketing.

 

[azrael1965]

That is entirely not my point.

Are you paying attention to the argument?
You said the game would've sold better had it been marketed with a mainstream focus....which it was.

And how the hell does the UI make it mainstream? What the hell are you talking about?

If your point is that GT5 sold well because it was marketed as mainstream I agree with you. That is true. What I meant is, that GT5 was considered to be inferior to Forza 3 by some reviews, because it wasn't as appealing as a game. Of course this didn't help selling the game. And sorry for my bad english, it's not my first language.

 

[azrael1965]

Actually, no, marketing is marketing and has their own management aside from the actual project (usually, anyways). Simply because managing PR takes a different approach than managing the project (or in this case, product).

Also, selling well because of the badge that is on the cover of the game is great and all. The question is, how long can you do so before the games takes a serious hit?

I wouldn't want GT5 to become the CoD of the driving world (with much slower releases, though).

Marketing and R&D work hand in hand nowadays. Even in the real car industry to try to develop features which might help to sell the car. The Visual Effects Trailer shown by MintBerryCrunch would be impossible without weather and night. You won't see this in Forza 4. The autovista mode of Forza 4 will not improve the racing sensation, but it looks awesome and will sell the game. In my eyes it's a marketing tool.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Not true, so iRacing, rFactor, GTR2 are not as good as the GT series because they havent sold as much?

Today is quality matters day, so sales do not matter. iRacing, rFactor, GTR2 win today.

 

[Tornado]

You clearly haven't been following the discussion. If you look back on the last page you will see cuco33 state that Polyphony Digital has mismanaged the franchise, pointing out disapproval for their side projects, allocation of resources and neglecting their core business of making videogames.

Responding to these criticisms by pointing out that they have released 4 highly successful games since the release of GT4 is relevant. It demonstrates how they have in fact not neglected their core business, have done a brilliant job of allocating what little resources that they have and managed the franchise incredibly well.

Whether anybody thinks that the games are bad or not is irrelevant since at the time sales figures were brought up, business was the topic of discussion, and sales are relevant to business.

Except every one of the GT titles would have sold in fantastic numbers no matter how terrible they were managed, so the point is moot and said "facts" irrelevant. So, once again, the only thing sales numbers are valid for are themselves.


Nice supposition, though. I love the implication that I only responded to that post and that means that was the only one in the thread I read. 👍

If you can't see how I'm not sure what to say really since it should be glaringly obvious.

I've found that when something is glaringly obvious to one person but not the other in a debate (or in this case, clear to you and found ridiculous by everyone else), the first person either did a terrible job of explaining it or they have no clue what they are talking about. I have to suspect that it is the latter in your case.


And by the way, pretty big difference between advertising features in the game and then having them come far short of expectations (inb4 unrealistic expectations) and not advertising features because the game doesn't have them and then not having them at all.

I was paraphrasing. If I was desperate to make people on the internet think that I'm intelligent I'd pick a unique font and colour for my posts and bold all of my sentances.

So, since you seem functionally incapable of not responding in a smartass way, the answer is yes, then.

Turn 10's habit of outsourcing content creation isn't exactly a big secret.

Neither are the rules in the first post.

 

[Luminis]

Marketing and R&D work hand in hand nowadays. Even in the real car industry to try to develop features which might help to sell the car. The Visual Effects Trailer shown by MintBerryCrunch would be impossible without weather and night. You won't see this in Forza 4. The autovista mode of Forza 4 will not improve the racing sensation, but it looks awesome and will sell the game. In my eyes it's a marketing tool.

The marketing department will present their results as to what features would be ideal to sell the product. From there on out, marketing has very little to do with the project management. It has, of course, to do with the product itself.

But the marketing guys usually have very little to do with the way the project is handled - eg. project plan, deadlines, setting milestones or handling the work load. In most cases, marketing campaigns will be handled as individual projects, the only connection being the information that's circulating back and forth between the marketing and R&D department.

Take the Visual Effects Trailer, for example. There might have been some guys from R&D taking an advisory role in this, but most of stuff like that will be handled by the marketing department themselves. For a very simple reason: They're pretty knowledgable at what should be shown in which way, what should stay hidden, what overall image should be generated.

In my case, our marketing department is even miles away from the actual projects they're advertising to the public. And that's because they're not needed to get stuff done, as they're not very involved in the whole thing.

 

[Tenacious D]

I am, in fact, of the opinion, that sales figures that are very high will cause the game to get worse as the developer starts to get lazy. When you get to the point that people will buy a turd in a box just because of the title of the game, that's when whole franchises go downhill.

I've been lurking here off and on poking in to see if there was anything worth oogling in here or remarking on, so it's sad that it's for this reason.

This is a really tired argument which is almost universally untrue. Bringing up one or two anecdotes of a game which isn't wonderful selling well is a fallacy, and it certainly doesn't make you wise for mentioning them. Most games which aren't much good die quickly. With darn few exceptions, game sales are the prime barometer of how good a game is, because reviews can be anything. And game companies aren't selling to reviewers, but gamers.

I sincerely doubt Luminis will hope that Forza 4 sells poorly so that this will make Microsoft hungrier for an even better Forza 5, or fans will mention that sales figures for F4 are meaningless. Were they for Forza 3...?

Likewise, people act like the public bought GT5 with no exposure to ANY content at all, just blindly. Ignoring the massive penetration of Prologue in the market. Or the presence of hundreds of thousands of GT5 kiosks, or the sharing of the game with friends. I've read a number of posts here of those scared off from buying the game, only to find that when they played it at a friend's place, their eyes were opened to how overstated all the criticism is. I know some of you find GT5 to be completely messed up, well fine. But then you still assume that everyone feels the same way you do, as if most of the posts on the board from the several hundred to thousand visitors to the boards every day were rants about how shoddy the game is. While in fact, it's the exact opposite. Just reading thread titles, you'd hardly know there were any malcontents here to speak of.

Oh, and let's pretend that Forza has had no issues over the years, made no broken promises, didn't port any content from previous versions, outsourcing caused no issues, yadda yadda. Let's ignore the small revolution that happened when the many promises for F2 went by the wayside: everything from F1, 12 car races off and online, a dramatic improvement in everything. Turn(10) a blind eye to the violent bots, or messed up liveries when taking a car out for just a photoshoot would cause random vinyls to shift around, or that adding elements to some car surfaces caused dreadful glitches, or that models were just wrong - still - having the very same issues from F1, or scrolling through your garage could crash the game - or just painting a car too long, or that getting disconnected from the Auction House could get you permabanned from Live, or that there were periodic physics patches as cars were exploited on leaderboards or online races, or that you could set up a car completely wrong and still race competitively, or that making an AWD conversion improved every car's performance drastically... etc.

And some of this is still carried over to F3. It seems T10 doesn't know what to do about the AWD issue, or how to keep certain cars from being exploited unfairly, or how to make car models without bugs mucking up liveries, or even how to make the file system work as well as an old 486 PC. Have more than a hundred pics, decals, liveries... anything, and the 360 bogs horribly. Forza fans will make fun of some Gran Turismo physics issues but give a pass to easy drifting or the pinball behavior of cars in high speed collisions. I had a lot of fun when I was bored making cars bounce off the "ceiling" of the atmosphere. And was it smart to gimp the online system from what was working pretty well in F2? Have any of you tried to share pics using the brain dead system T10 created, or noticed that the only good pics are from people who buy capture cards or spend a lot of quality time with them in an art program?

So sure, if all you want to do is tear around a track and buy stuff from the online stores, Forza is a blast. Of course unless you're in a club, you'd better have an AWD car to be competitive. But if you want to actually use the many other community friendly things which should be a blessing, like car painting and photo shooting, you might find an increasingly large bald spot appearing on your head, and a lot of time wasted.

It's quite appalling sometimes to hear terms like fanboy applied to GT fans, while discussions and criticism of these two games is mostly one sided.

 

[Tornado]

This is a really tired argument which is almost universally untrue. Bringing up one or two anecdotes of a game which isn't wonderful selling well is a fallacy, and it certainly doesn't make you wise for mentioning them. Most games which aren't much good die quickly. With darn few exceptions, game sales are the prime barometer of how good a game is, because reviews can be anything. And game companies aren't selling to reviewers, but gamers.

"Correlation does not imply causation."



The entire argument that GT5 sold well so therefore must have been managed well outright requires the above statement to be false, and it isn't. GT5's sales aren't proof of anything other than that GT5 has sold well, just like they aren't for any other game on the market. Because correlations, no matter how strong they are, are not proof of anything.

 

[Spagetti69]

Wow. The big guns are in the house.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Likewise, people act like the public bought GT5 with no exposure to ANY content at all, just blindly. Ignoring the massive penetration of Prologue in the market. Or the presence of hundreds of thousands of GT5 kiosks, or the sharing of the game with friends. I've read a number of posts here of those scared off from buying the game, only to find that when they played it at a friend's place, their eyes were opened to how overstated all the criticism is. I know some of you find GT5 to be completely messed up, well fine. But then you still assume that everyone feels the same way you do, as if most of the posts on the board from the several hundred to thousand visitors to the boards every day were rants about how shoddy the game is. While in fact, it's the exact opposite. Just reading thread titles, you'd hardly know there were any malcontents here to speak of.

While I think sales never equal quality, this is an interesting argument.
This weekend a friend borrowed GT5: Prologue from me because he bought a PS3 a couple of days ago and still waits for his GT5 copy. He saw the game here and was completely blown away, doesn't really care about Standard cars or any of the "flaws". I think he represents the "casual" or "average" gamer quite good.

 

[Spagetti69]

A lot of expectations come down to pedigree.

Not trying to sound elitist but previous expectations will always play a role in how you view new software.

If I criticise any game its only my point of view I'm expressing.

The following for both Forza and GT have a good general consensus of where they would like the titles to go.

This relieves the developers somewhat by giving them the ideas. Other genres rely on developer ideas ie shooters, platformer and such.
It can also be a hindrance trying to live up to those pressures put on developers too, with unrealistic expectations.

My opinions.
Forza has or is near to outgrowing the 360 and needs new hardware to vastly improve it.

GT needs to get all there assets to an equal consistency.

Both fixes are not quite around the corner but are not far out of the reach.

Which problem as a developer I would prefer over the other is debatable.

GT is in PD's hands and as they have proven can be overcome. Nurb standard on all tracks. Premium all cars.

T10 problem is out of there hands. They get new hardware when given it.

Just rambling.

 

[Tenacious D]

The entire argument that GT5 sold well so therefore must have been managed well outright requires the above statement to be false

Way to rewrite my entire post, professor. You'd be a great politician.

Anyhow, Spagetti has the proper understanding of the situation. While very few of the issues with Forza can be chalked up to the hardware, aside from the framerate issues of Forza 1 on XBox, Turn 10 apparently have thrown a solid pitch with Forza 4. They finally broke the eight car barrier, partly by carefully massaging the detail of the expansive backgrounds, partly because of careful reworking of the core code - possibly, making an educated guess here. While all I have to go by are YouTube vids, it seems they struck a balance that works. Of course, the proof is in the playing, so the jury is still out for just over a month. Win7 was supposed to be perfect too.

But T10 know what their fans want, and what caused board eruptions in the past, so I'm anticipating this will finally be the Forza we've been waiting for. And I expect won't brick 360s with all the heavy lifting necessary to run the game, something late gen games have done to both fat 1st gen PS3s and 360s. Hard drive space is another matter.

Kaz and Polyphony know how to make a great racer. Contrary to contrary opinion here, GT5 has a lot of things going in its favor. Sure, the team made some frankly bizarre choices for the game, and clearly misjudged many fans' reaction to them. But they can be taught, and believe it or not, they do listen to their fans. You can grouch that GT5 should have been the dream game to start with, but that's a nine month old dead horse most of us have stopped beating, and the game is evolving. GT6 and Forza 5 will both be better, perhaps both on superior next gen hardware, and we can start the whole thumb wrestling festivities over again.

 

[axl54]

@Spagetthi, Turn 10 aren't limited by the 360 anymore than PD are by the PS3. The idea that the PS3 is vastly more powerful than the Ps3 is a complete myth, if you look at their specs, and listen to developers statements you'll find that while both have strengths and weaknesses, overall they're very close in terms of what they can do.
If fully believe that if (hypothetically) given the chance, PD could get GT5 running fine on the 360, and some aspects like alpha effects (smoke, rain) would be improved because of the 360's higher bandwith.

 

[Tornado]

Way to rewrite my entire post, professor. You'd be a great politician.

You may not realize this if your immediate response was to assume I was attacking you, but the entire thing I've been debating in this thread is the point that Gran Turismo games keep selling well so that is proof that they have been managed well (also carrying the spelled-out implication that the Forza games have not sold as well so that is proof that they weren't managed as well).



I only responded to your post to point out the flaws in using that to support said viewpoint (and I'm not saying that you were supporting said viewpoint), because it is so obvious that someone was going to try to use your post as proof and I might as well short-circuit the process. It was not "lol look at the stupid thing Tenacious said."

 

[Bogie 19th]

quick off topic Toronado, can you change the default text format in posts? I like your blue that you have for example. Or are you changing it each time you start posting?

 

[zr1chris]

quick off topic Toronado, can you change the default text format in posts? I like your blue that you have for example. Or are you changing it each time you start posting?

I think you can change it in your profile settings but I can't seem to find it so I may be thinking of another site. You can change it for every single post (the A with the line under it at the top) but that can get a bit annoying.

 

[Spagetti69]

@Spagetthi, Turn 10 aren't limited by the 360 anymore than PD are by the PS3. The idea that the PS3 is vastly more powerful than the Ps3 is a complete myth, if you look at their specs, and listen to developers statements you'll find that while both have strengths and weaknesses, overall they're very close in terms of what they can do.
If fully believe that if (hypothetically) given the chance, PD could get GT5 running fine on the 360, and some aspects like alpha effects (smoke, rain) would be improved because of the 360's higher bandwith.

I never really said that the PS is a superior system.
I meant that T10 have hit the ceiling earlier if you like.
PD still have old assets to upgrade to standardise all there game. They haven't hit the limit in that regard.

You could interpret what I said as PD need to catch up. But that would cause flames lol.

 

[Kent]

I think the one place where forza shines is in not having something gt has tons of- crap cars. Sorry to be the downer but I have no interest in so many of those cheesy cars I wouldnt even want to drive in real life.
That said, Im begging pd...
Please trim the list down to just the enthusiast/ race/ sports cars! Maybe you will be able to do premium on all of them once the fat is trimmed away!

 

[FyreandIce]

I never really said that the PS is a superior system.
I meant that T10 have hit the ceiling earlier if you like.
PD still have old assets to upgrade to standardise all there game. They haven't hit the limit in that regard.

You could interpret what I said as PD need to catch up. But that would cause flames lol.

If you take the frame rate issues into account, PD smashed through the ceiling and never bothered to try and fix it.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I think you can change it in your profile settings.

Yeah, I have looked there before but no luck. However, I see he is a subscriber. Maybe that is a perk.

 

[axl54]

I never really said that the PS is a superior system.
I meant that T10 have hit the ceiling earlier if you like.
PD still have old assets to upgrade to standardise all there game. They haven't hit the limit in that regard.

You could interpret what I said as PD need to catch up. But that would cause flames lol.

Misunderstood, Sry, my bad

 

[Minty]

Yeah, I have looked there before but no luck. However, I see he is a subscriber. Maybe that is a perk.

It's not a perk. Well, at least, if it is, no one has told me.

After a while it just becomes a reaction to change the formatting before you even begin to type. That, or if you've got the right mouse or keyboard you could create a macro. So it'd only be a single click each post.

 

[Bogie 19th]

It's not a perk. Well, at least, if it is, no one has told me.

After a while it just becomes a reaction to change the formatting before you even begin to type. That, or if you've got the right mouse or keyboard you could create a macro. So it'd only be a single click each post.

Ok good to know. Thank you very much.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

I always want to type in a color, but I am lazy.
I must try.

 

[Tenacious D]

@Spagetthi, Turn 10 aren't limited by the 360 anymore than PD are by the PS3. The idea that the PS3 is vastly more powerful than the Ps3 is a complete myth, if you look at their specs, and listen to developers statements you'll find that while both have strengths and weaknesses, overall they're very close in terms of what they can do.
If fully believe that if (hypothetically) given the chance, PD could get GT5 running fine on the 360, and some aspects like alpha effects (smoke, rain) would be improved because of the 360's higher bandwith.

I would agree that the PS3 isn't more powerful than the Ps3.

But as for the PS3 vs 360 debate, the 360 has been out a year longer and is easier to develop for. But if so, you sure can't tell it by the games. Forza 4 may well be catching up to the graphic bar established three years ago by GT5 Prologue, but we still have to see about that. Plus, yeah, it took a few years. And I have yet to see anything as nifty looking as Uncharted on 360, or hear how the 360 is the basis of a supercomputer.

You may not realize this if your immediate response was to assume I was attacking you, but the entire thing I've been debating in this thread is the point that Gran Turismo games keep selling well

Then I stand corrected, though you could have made that a little clearer in your post. Oh well, we all gaf up a point now and then. But even though I haven't read much in this section, I have a feeling you're overstating how "perfect" GT5 and Polyphony have been regarded in this debate. This is something both sides seem equally guilty of.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Actually, the latest Gear is looking better than the latest Uncharted. Though I prefer the multiplayer of Uncharted and the single player of Gears (cuz I suck at the Gears mp).

 

[axl54]

I would agree that the PS3 isn't more powerful than the Ps3.

Obviosly I meant isn't more powerful than 360, no need to be so pedantic,and what does the fact that Ps3's can be linked together have to do with anything? It's not like a single game even utilises that feature.

As for Uncharted 2 I agree, it's stunning and along with God of War 3 & the Killzones, more impressive than almost anything on the 360, except parts of Crysis 2. Naughty Dog, Guerilla and Sony Santa Monica.............. and PD,
have pushed the PS3 to it's limits, I think it's just a case that the 360 hasn't been utilised to the same extent, If you look at the specs of both machines then you'll see that they're really close in terms of power and potential.

/end of thread de-rail.

 

[Da-Bomber]

I think the one place where forza shines is in not having something gt has tons of- crap cars. Sorry to be the downer but I have no interest in so many of those cheesy cars I wouldnt even want to drive in real life.
That said, Im begging pd...
Please trim the list down to just the enthusiast/ race/ sports cars! Maybe you will be able to do premium on all of them once the fat is trimmed away!

This is one of the reasons I love GT and would hate to see happen.