FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Gears looks better than Uncharted, Crisis looks better on 360.

Uncharted dosent even have that great of graphics, they just look more fluent, and lifelike.

 

[shmogt]

Gears looks better than Uncharted, Crisis looks better on 360.

Uncharted dosent even have that great of graphics, they just look more fluent, and lifelike.

Hahaha yes cause obviously having a game that looks like a really good game is better than one that looks LIFELIKE

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Hahaha yes cause obviously having a game that looks like a really good game is better than one that looks LIFELIKE

Not graphical lifelike, movement lifelike. In terms of graphics, it's similar to Gears 2, but they got the movement of the characters right.

 

[Da-Bomber]

Gears 3 looks better to me. Then again I never really got into uncharted.

OT: I still think Forza needs better animations within the cockpit. Why can't they do some mocap.

 

[Luminis]

With darn few exceptions, game sales are the prime barometer of how good a game is

Oh, really? So, the Sims are now a better game than everything else on the PC, Wii Sports is the best game on the Wii, Nintendogs and Cats is the best game on the N3DS (Wii Sports and Nintendogs thereby edging out masterpieces like the Zelda games) and the best game on the Xbox360 is CoD: Black Ops.

I can't agree with any of that.

I sincerely doubt Luminis will hope that Forza 4 sells poorly so that this will make Microsoft hungrier for an even better Forza 5

No, but I sincerly hope that Forza never gets to the point where it's selling because of what name's written on the box.

Likewise, people act like the public bought GT5 with no exposure to ANY content at all, just blindly. Ignoring the massive penetration of Prologue in the market. Or the presence of hundreds of thousands of GT5 kiosks, or the sharing of the game with friends.[/quote]
Because Prologue was so representative of the final game, because the kiosks were so representativ of the final game? I'd also like to point out that GT5 was one of the most preordered games of 2010, no? I'd call that 'blindly purchasing the product', yes.

I guess I'll skip the following rant, I've read before and answered it before.

Anyways, on the whole 360vs.PS3 thing, I believe that both systems have their ups and downs, but are largely similar in performance, after all.

 

[NLxAROSA]

GT is in PD's hands and as they have proven can be overcome. Nurb standard on all tracks. Premium all cars.

Agreed, PD has shown us what can be done with an awesome track like the 24h Nürburgring with day/night transition. It's the biggest track in the game, so if they can pull off a richly filled scenery and amazing eye candy there, there's no technical limit preventing to do the same for all the other (read: smaller) tracks. Just time and money.

I can't agree with any of that.

Exactly. Number of sales are never a measure of quality. According to that same logic, McDonalds sells better food than my local restaurant and IKEA furniture is of better quality than my local carpenter's, just because they sell more. It's flawed logic.

Anyway, I thought this topic was about GT vs FM? Let's keep the PS3 vs Xbox360 war out of here. To me it's a stupid argument anyway, the specs of the console don't have to mean anything for the end result of a game. It's like saying a synthesizer workstation will always yield better music than a piano, because it can put out more notes simultaneously. In the end, it's about how a game plays, not how many trees it can render.

 

[Ryan81]

Generally speaking, I would say GT has a more diverse range of cars (from 14hp to 1000hp) while FM includes a smaller number of "every day cars" with 90-150hp. Most, however, tend to be around the 200hp and above mark. One thing though is that FM IMO has more desirable sports/supercars in its roster, with loads of Ferraris, Porsches, Maseratis, Lambos, Saleens etc.
GT does have a very good list of supercars but not to the same extent.

 

[FyreandIce]

One thing though is that FM IMO has more desirable sports/supercars in its roster, with loads Porsches etc.

Uh, should you tell him or should I?

 

[vandaliser]

The difference between Gran Turismo and forza is very simple.
One is a brand. The other is just another racing sim. One has it's work imprinted into cars themselves in real life with real support from car manufacturers, the other has it's in jezza reading from an autocue describing cars.

In the public eye, when one thinks of racing series, one thinks of three series. Gran Turismo, Mario Kart and Need for speed. Yes these series have been around the block for years giving them more exposure and more fans but that's reality really.

That's the public side of things.

But if you are talking game wise. You can easily see the difference between the philosophy between the two developers. PD likes variety in driving experience. Different track conditions and different types of races. Whereas Turn 10 variety lies in customisation and livery.

 

[vandaliser]

@Spagetthi, Turn 10 aren't limited by the 360 anymore than PD are by the PS3. The idea that the PS3 is vastly more powerful than the Ps3 is a complete myth, if you look at their specs, and listen to developers statements you'll find that while both have strengths and weaknesses, overall they're very close in terms of what they can do.
If fully believe that if (hypothetically) given the chance, PD could get GT5 running fine on the 360, and some aspects like alpha effects (smoke, rain) would be improved because of the 360's higher bandwith.

The ps3 has more bandwidth when it comes to main memory. XDR at 3.2ghz. The thing is though Gran Turismo is running at 1280x1080p. That's native resoultion with 2AA. With 60fps and 16 cars and running dynamic night time/rain in the engine.


If polyphony used MLAA and used 720p native resolution, they would have saved some memory and performance. As for whether PD could run GT5 in it's current form on the 360 well no one knows that.

All we know for sure is the specs of GT5 and forza 4 is widely known. Which is more technically impressive is left to the gamer to decide

 

[bullet360]

Exactly. Number of sales are never a measure of quality. According to that same logic, McDonalds sells better food than my local restaurant and IKEA furniture is of better quality than my local carpenter's, just because they sell more. It's flawed logic.

Im going to agree but disagree. NO sales do NOT determine how great a quality a game is. But it should serve some purpose if the product is still being bought overtime. Are you trying to tell me that when I go to buy Van Halens first album CD, that im buying NOT because of what contents it contains, but just because it sold great? But thats music and off topic.

Im going to say "initially", numbers of sales are never a sure measure of "quality", but why not let the "quality" of a product determine the increase or decrease of sales overtime...

And how long or short that gap is, is beyond me...

 

[bullet360]

Not true, so iRacing, rFactor, GTR2 are not as good as the GT series because they havent sold as much?

He never said number of sales make a game "better". He said the statistics of sales are "important".
Im sorry but thats a significant difference in my perspective.

 

[Minty]

It took me weeks of playing before I finally started to get annoyed by all of the little problems GT had. I was actually on the last few events before it really started to bug me. So the sales still going could have something to do with no demos being avaiable, and people who just go around telling their friends it's a great game, and people who only try it over a friends or something.

For most people the first impression is that GT5 is absolutely fantastic, so they go out and buy it to play for themselves.

And with that music analogy, imagine listening to that CD, and the first song is Van Halen, so you buy it, only to get home and find the rest of the CD is filled with Bieber and Rebecka Black. GT5 just looks very appealing on the surface, but the deeper you get the worse it is.

Also, people still buy COD games, people still buy McDonalds, people still bug Ikea, but that still doesn't make them better than anything else, or "good" in any way.

 

[Vaxxtx]

The difference between Gran Turismo and forza is very simple.
One is a brand. The other is just another racing sim. One has it's work imprinted into cars themselves in real life with real support from car manufacturers, the other has it's in jezza reading from an autocue describing cars.

In the public eye, when one thinks of racing series, one thinks of three series. Gran Turismo, Mario Kart and Need for speed. Yes these series have been around the block for years giving them more exposure and more fans but that's reality really.

That's the public side of things.

But if you are talking game wise. You can easily see the difference between the philosophy between the two developers. PD likes variety in driving experience. Different track conditions and different types of races. Whereas Turn 10 variety lies in customisation and livery.

Thats a bold, general statment. I guess I am just not one of the public because thats NOT what I think of when someone mentions a racing game. See, its all how old you are, what you like to play, and what platform you played/play on.

PD likes to put in some really odd races, that just are not much fun at all. Also they seem to get more into the museum cards, and paint chips, and racing suits, and totally un-realistic bumper cam views to drive in.

I dont care for that philosophy.

 

[bullet360]

It took me weeks of playing before I finally started to get annoyed by all of the little problems GT had. I was actually on the last few events before it really started to bug me. So the sales still going could have something to do with no demos being avaiable, and people who just go around telling their friends it's a great game, and people who only try it, and buy it based on first impressions.

For most people the first impression is that GT5 is absolutely fantastic, so they go out and buy it to play for themselves.

And with that music analogy, imagine listening to that CD, and the first song is Van Halen, so you buy it, only to get home and find the rest of the CD is filled with Bieber and Rebecka Black. GT5 just looks very appealing on the surface, but the deeper you get the worse it is.

Also, people still buy COD games, people still buy McDonalds, people still bug Ikea, but that still doesn't make them better than anything else, or "good" in any way.

Purposeful point... I think its safe to say that people only bought GT because they only knew what contents WERE going to be featured, and didnt know which weren't. Which leads to my "overtime" statement. Sure gt5 sold hundreds of thousands in weeks and millions in months, but it makes me wonder how many copies of those millions were sent back. I heard and know some stores were no longer accepting copies of the game because of sheer disapointment. Anybody who says the game is a flop is wrong, but those who say its an absolute hit couldn't be any further from being correct. Its worse than it is beautiful. For the first time in the GT series and as long time fan of the series, I am disapointed. I'll speak on behalf of those that still play the game, the only reason why the game isnt collecting dust ISN'T because of the game itself (campaign/A-spec), but ONLY because of the community. And with the recent patches that we are forced to download for online services. The quality is detioratig, but thats for a different discussion...

! Edit !

And now that I think about it, comparing that music analogy to gt5 was a little out of context i'll admit. If it were to be fair, i'd have to wait the length of the relase of VH1 to now. Then wait that same time with gt5 and enjoy it as much as I do with VH, and frankly, I dont. And l dont think anybody ever should... Haha

 

[H3avyM3tal]

Sales do count if a game is considered good or not. They do not count if a game is better than another game unless it's in the same category. Good as it if the person who bought it is enjoying it. Sales can't say if a game is BETTER than another game. For example, Forza has more features than GT5 has, but for me they are useless. So which game is better? FOR ME it's GT5.

Mario kart is a good game, a very good game, that is why many people bought it. They didn't buy it because it is better than GT or Forza. They got it because it's a good game. You people need to make that difference more bold. Sales say if a game is good FOR THE PEOPLE WHO BUY IT. They DON'T say if game A is better then game B. Sales has very little to do with quality (except, as I said, when they are in the same genre, but even then not so much).

I hope some of you got the point. Sales measure how many copies sold, hence if it's content is considered GOOD. Sales do not measure if game A is better than game B.

I'll speak on behalf of those that still play the game, the only reason why the game isnt collecting dust ISN'T because of the game itself (campaign/A-spec), but ONLY because of the community.

Isn't that always the case? GT5 is disappointing, no doubt about it, but that is mainly because of the previous games in the series. GT5 is still miles better than many racing games that came out before or after it.

 

[bullet360]

Isn't that always the case? GT5 is disappointing, no doubt about it, but that is mainly because of the previous games in the series. GT5 is still miles better than many racing games that came out before or after it.

Yes as disapointing as it is, it still brought a new standard to (console) sim games that aren't focused upon one car class. Those are the things that i wish that could be discussed a lot more about this game. Not about how many standards are worth looking at or how horrible the tree's look when you're parked onna corner. If only gt5 delivered as good as it doess everywhere, instead of just "here or there". But like l said, gt "5" is a set foundation for what "good" we are about to see in upcoming releases of the series. I mean come on now, PD has been in the buisness since mid 90's. Do you really think they havent learned from this?

Edit

Sales say if a game is good FOR THE PEOPLE WHO BUY IT. They DON'T say if game A is better then game B.

EXACTLY ! Thats directly equivilant to saying justin bieber has better music than queen because his youtube video has more views than it...

 

[cuco33]

I disagree and I'll note that it's just your opinion as is mine.. GT5 needed to surpass Forza 3, and didn't. As a game, GT5 was all over the place, from points of brilliance like premiums in photo travel and driving a premium in cockpit on Nurburgring, to points of massive questioning on PD's efforts and disappointment, like the whole ported cars thing, grinding, half assed features, etc. The faults are too glaringly obvious though and there are more of them than the shining examples. The driving aspect as in the physics though, GT5 > FM3 but that's not 'miles better'.

And I also disagree on sales telling you if a game is good or not. I've played PLENTY of excellent games in my days that didn't sell well at all, just as I've played complete and utter crap games that sold well.

 

[Vaxxtx]

I disagree and I'll note that it's just your opinion as is mine.. GT5 needed to surpass Forza 3, and didn't. As a game, GT5 was all over the place, from points of brilliance like premiums in photo travel and driving a premium in cockpit on Nurburgring, to points of massive questioning on PD's efforts and disappointment, like the whole ported cars thing, grinding, half assed features, etc. The faults are too glaringly obvious though and there are more of them than the shining examples. The driving aspect as in the physics though, GT5 > FM3 but that's not 'miles better'.

And I also disagree on sales telling you if a game is good or not. I've played PLENTY of excellent games in my days that didn't sell well at all, just as I've played complete and utter crap games that sold well.

I totally agree with your frist paragraph. I fell the exact same way.

Demons Souls = Didnt sell at a top tier level at release. Also a very good game.

Madden NFL = Always sells well, and is pretty crappy.

Just an example.

 

[Tenacious D]

Oh, really? So, the Sims are now a better game than everything else on the PC, Wii Sports is the best game on the Wii, Nintendogs and Cats is the best game on the N3DS (Wii Sports and Nintendogs thereby edging out masterpieces like the Zelda games) and the best game on the Xbox360 is CoD: Black Ops.

I can't agree with any of that.

It seems you need to be addressed like a democrat running for office, and have everything spelled out. The same for many Forza fans who get buttsore when the series gets any real criticism.

What competition does The Sims have? I really can't think of another human toybox game. In fact, to my surprise, some hardcore gamers have toyed around with it for a while. I've even thought of getting an old bargain bin copy to see if I can create a bizarre community of cartoon characters, until I was informed it wasn't quite so deep. But when I have some spare time to blow, I'm still thinking of seeing if I can manipulate the Simmies in those directions.

Is the Mario series crap? To me it's rather meh, but I don't criticize anyone for buying every Mario game that exists. More than once, I might.

I guess we just understand the nature of sales and public acceptance differently. Oh well.

Likewise, people act like the public bought GT5 with no exposure to ANY content at all, just blindly. Ignoring the massive penetration of Prologue in the market. Or the presence of hundreds of thousands of GT5 kiosks, or the sharing of the game with friends.

Because Prologue was so representative of the final game, because the kiosks were so representativ of the final game? I'd also like to point out that GT5 was one of the most preordered games of 2010, no? I'd call that 'blindly purchasing the product', yes.

Oh, so did the demos of Forza 2 and 3 properly represent all the issues with those two games? Did people buy F2 blindly not knowing that promised content would be discarded without warning over the few months prior to release? Or that the bugs in the car models would be carried over from F1, or that liveries would be a mess? Or that the Auction House had a glitch in it that could get you permabanned? Or all the flaws with Forza 3 some of which were ported directly from Forza 1, unfixed, including the car model bugs, physics exploits, file flaws, or that the online system was crapped?

See, as usual, only GT5 has serious issues because either "Eh, the stuff in Forza don't matter to me," or you guys are blind fanboys. Or is it that simpel?

Are the thousand or so of us who post in the GT5 section and are enjoying the game blind fanboys? Are we ignorant? Are we aware of the issues and have dealt with them? Do we understand that PD has worked through a crippling disaster and a massive move of hundreds of miles to continue to improve the game? Or are we just stupid to you?

I know it must offend you to realize that Forza has problems that anger many fans like me as the issues in GT5. I mean, hell, there are the VERY same unaddressed and unfixed flaws which have run through the entire series to this point. I can see pretty clearly that if they don't matter to you, they shouldn't matter to anyone, and if they do, they're a dumb hater.

Oh well, guess I'm done discussing things with Mr Unbiased.

I guess I'll skip the following rant, I've read before and answered it before.

Probably as well as this one...

Anyways, I'm pretty much done in here because I'd rather get my hands on FW4 cold without spoilers, so I don't have unrealistic expectations of the game like some of you seem to have. But if it's the same old buggy game as before, you're likely to see me disappear as quickly as I did after six weeks with FW3.

By the way,

Demon Souls = crap game, to me.

Once again, acting like everyone should see things the same way you do is rather haughty. Yes, so is acting like GT5 has no problems.

Or the Forza series...

 

[zr1chris]

Madden NFL = Always sells well, and is pretty crappy.

Just an example.

I couldn't disagree more. I totally love Madden.

I think GT5 sold well based off its past reputation and not based on the quality of the game itself. Loads of people bought it on release day expecting the best only to be dissapointed a bit.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Madden is awesomesauce, though I prefer NCAA.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Madden 12 is amazing.

 

[Vaxxtx]

I couldn't disagree more. I totally love Madden.

I think GT5 sold well based off its past reputation and not based on the quality of the game itself. Loads of people bought it on release day expecting the best only to be dissapointed a bit.

Madden is awesomesauce, though I prefer NCAA.

Madden 12 is amazing.

Not much of a choice if you want an NFL game. I hate seeing bits small of things improved year after year with not innovation...IMO. They could just change the roster and people will still buy it, because...thats all you got.

I tried the demo of Madden 12, and nothing special hit me. Could just be me being jaded..dunno.

 

[Luminis]

What competition does The Sims have?

What competition did GT have when the franchise was established and got as big as it is today?

Is the Mario series crap? To me it's rather meh, but I don't criticize anyone for buying every Mario game that exists.

Who's saying that every Mario game is crap? I'm saying that a lot of them are crap and are selling well because it says "Mario" on the box.

I guess we just understand the nature of sales and public acceptance differently. Oh well.

You know, our marketing department always puts it this way: "Customers buy with their heart, not their brain." Good marketing will make a crappy product sell well. So, do sales equal a good game? No.

I see the same thing with our customers, really. We have the good stuff to get new customers to swtich to our bank. The ones that are already with us, they're getting the worse stuff, because we absolutely don't need to do as much to keep them. Do I expect the same to hold true for other businesses as well? Yes.

Oh, so did the demos of Forza 2 and 3 properly represent all the issues with those two games? Did people buy F2 blindly not knowing that promised content would be discarded without warning over the few months prior to release? Or that the bugs in the car models would be carried over from F1, or that liveries would be a mess? Or that the Auction House had a glitch in it that could get you permabanned? Or all the flaws with Forza 3 some of which were ported directly from Forza 1, unfixed, including the car model bugs, physics exploits, file flaws, or that the online system was crapped?

You can bring up as many flaws as you want, if you like. GT5P, with nothign but premium cars, was far less representative of of GT5 than the Forza demos were for their respective games. Because, the occassional glitch did happen there, too.

Audi R8, for example. Screen tearing, shadows. And, uh, dunno. Grinding your behind off in career mode?

Are the thousand or so of us who post in the GT5 section and are enjoying the game blind fanboys? Are we ignorant? Are we aware of the issues and have dealt with them? Do we understand that PD has worked through a crippling disaster and a massive move of hundreds of miles to continue to improve the game? Or are we just stupid to you?

Two things:
1) Are the throusand (or so) of you represantative for the six million people who bought GT5? Are those who aren't happy with it more likely to come here and say so, or to stay put because they don't care?
2) I'm pretty indifferent to those who like GT5. Those who come in here, crucifying Forza for whatever flaw they can imagine, whether it's true or not, even, while turning two blind eyes to whatever GT5 is being criticized for, those I actually do consider 'stupid', yes. People who go "standard cars are fine lol they have the same physics engine", for example.

I know it must offend you to realize that Forza has problems that anger many fans like me as the issues in GT5. I mean, hell, there are the VERY same unaddressed and unfixed flaws which have run through the entire series to this point. I can see pretty clearly that if they don't matter to you, they shouldn't matter to anyone, and if they do, they're a dumb hater.

If that's how you want to spin it, that's fine with me. I'm just sick and tyred of people claiming that GT5 has done everythign right when I can't enjoy most of the features in the bulk of the cars, on the bulk of the tracks and even the graphics are tarnished throughout the game. While at the same time claiming that Forza sucks because the graphics are cartoony and it lacks the oh so important weather effects.

Oh well, guess I'm done discussing things with Mr Unbiased.

Look who's talking...

Anyways, I'm pretty much done in here because I'd rather get my hands on FW4 cold without spoilers, so I don't have unrealistic expectations of the game like some of you seem to have. But if it's the same old buggy game as before, you're likely to see me disappear as quickly as I did after six weeks with FW3.

I don't even how you managed to get to know our expactations, but anyways, good bye and good riddance.

 

[vandaliser]

I stopped reading when you said 'it only sells because of mario'

And yes cars in forza looks cartoony. That's what happens when you outsource your car modelling to india and vietnam.

Reminds me when sony decided to outsource alot of hardware production to china and as a result their TVs quality took a massive dive. Quality control becomes alot less inefficient.

 

[vandaliser]

I disagree and I'll note that it's just your opinion as is mine.. GT5 needed to surpass Forza 3, and didn't. As a game, GT5 was all over the place, from points of brilliance like premiums in photo travel and driving a premium in cockpit on Nurburgring, to points of massive questioning on PD's efforts and disappointment, like the whole ported cars thing, grinding, half assed features, etc. The faults are too glaringly obvious though and there are more of them than the shining examples. The driving aspect as in the physics though, GT5 > FM3 but that's not 'miles better'.

And I also disagree on sales telling you if a game is good or not. I've played PLENTY of excellent games in my days that didn't sell well at all, just as I've played complete and utter crap games that sold well.

is there any other game that gives you this thrill?

and the answer is no. This is PD's efforts. right there. This is something that is unmatched in any car game so far. This is worth the 60 dollars in itself.

 

[Tenacious D]

I just had to come in here to see if Lumy gave any kind of even-handed response that wasn't a list of defensive remarks. Well, imagine this.

The problem I have with the Forza crowd is that they circle their wagons the very same way every other fan does their fave game. And often deny they're doing it. And like many, they basically paint me as a blind fanboy who has never once mentioned the numerous issues with GT5. Hint: I know there's a 100 post history limit now, but search Tenacious D with keywords "paint shop," "XP/experience points," or any other issue you'd want to name. Most of them, not all but most, I've complained about too. But I'm not holding my breath on that.

Because many of them never agree that Forza has any issues whatsoever. Many of them won't even acknowledge that Forza is basically the entire Gran Turismo concept repackaged by Turn 10. Sure, there are a lot of unwarranted attacks on "Flopza" as some put it. Then again, there has been a distinct lack of humility coming from Microsoft on any darn thing, especially Forza. But bring up anything, and with darn rare exceptions, Forza fans will essentially respond with, "Issues?? What issues?"

No, only Gran Turismo has issues. This is a one sided argument we might as well give up on any chance of an even handed debate. Later, baiters.

 

[cuco33]

is there any other game that gives you this thrill?

and the answer is no. This is PD's efforts. right there. This is something that is unmatched in any car game so far. This is worth the 60 dollars in itself.

Yes, many racing games actually can give you a thrill similar to that. Nurb, including weather and night but also during day, is the best Nurb experience out there in my book from what I've played. But it's not the only track in the game. And you don't judge a whole game based off of 1 excellent track with great physics and a premium car. You look at the entire package. I myself think Nurb in Forza is great, albeit not on par with Nurb in GT5. But try that not on Racing Softs which gives you more grip than normal. \\
Many of us are gamers who's into all the games. Like I mentioned, I was once a die hard GT fanboy, until I opened my view to other games on other platforms. Still love the franchise but GT5 wasn't the GT5 everyone thought we'd get. I can even go as far as saying GT PSP wasn't the GT we thought either, but that's pushing it since this thread is FM vs GT, console related..

 

[SlipZtrEm]

*snip*

is there any other game that gives you this thrill?

and the answer is no. This is PD's efforts. right there. This is something that is unmatched in any car game so far. This is worth the 60 dollars in itself.

Er... that sort of thing was mentioned in the post you quoted. Directly before the part you bolded, actually. I don't think anybody will question the awesomeness that is cockpit driving at night on the 'Ring in GT5. It's the massive selection of cars that won't let you do that that's the issue. Or all the connection issues with racing online. Or the random game freezes. Those last two things haven't been much of a problem for me, but the GT5 boards mention them quite a lot.

...

It's disappointing that arguments are now hinging on things that aren't even said. Nobody has said "Forza has no flaws", so pretending otherwise is the very definition of baiting. Both series have their flaws, although there is some overlap. For all the whinging about poor file management, GT5 took three steps back compared to GT4 - Photomode shots are a lot more cumbersome (though admittedly not as bad as FM's situation, which is more of a problem T10 inherited by Microsoft). The paint chip hilarity will massively slow down the game: try loading up over 2000 chips... and even worse, realizing the filter function won't stick, so every time you head into GT Auto, you have to wait for the entire list to load. Replays are the same thing - I had about 60 I needed to sort through and there's serious lag every time I go to even browse. GT5 in general, at least in menus, seems to be very poorly optimized.

Spaghetti had a good point - Forza, even more so than GT, is limited by its hardware at this point. The game is expansive, and the 360's hardware just can't accommodate. The interesting thing about racing games is even today's best sims are just scratching the surface when it comes to detail, physics-wise: there's so much more that hasn't even been explored yet, and it'll certainly be interesting to see how both franchises move forward in the next few years, as new systems will present T10 and PD with many different possible paths to focus on.

FM4 is certainly shaping up to be a marked improvement over FM3 though, and as a good chunk of sites out there already reviewed 3 as the best sim-racing game on consoles this generation, 4 is certainly building on a solid foundation. Like I've said before, why pick one game or the other; be happy both exist, and that competition between one another can only improve both sides 👍