FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[HBK]

I'd rather have the option, either way.

Of course.

I still prefer when the game kind of adapt to the limitations of HIDs, even it can lead to a small lack of realism, rather than having the game behave in some kind of super-duper realistic way which is, in the end, completely inconsistent with HIDs. IMO, realism is not just having realistic numbers, it's also having behaviors which are consistent with the interface you're using.

I mean, it really makes little sense having the in-game gearbox in neutral position when you shifter is clearly set in a gear.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

From what I read, GT5 had a budget of a rough 60 million - and this isn't talking about PD, but about GT5. So, I fail to see why you're considering PD to be somewhat of the underdog in this comparison. I really don't get that.

Low costs?! Like, three times the budget of Killzone 2? That's what you're calling 'low cost'? I'm sorry, we must have completely differing standards as to what is lo cost and what isn't.

The figure most likely takes into account cost since GT4 or excluding TT. The assets and games engines used for GT PSP and GT5P were production costs for GT5 as they are assets used. Only PD made these games. The Killzone 2 budget is probably similar to what was GT5 or more . Even the article linked says the developer saying it cost more than a film costing $21m dollars and the rumours are it cost about $60million to produce it. If you put costs for Killzone 3, I think PD have spent less. Kaz said himself he thinks its low cost for what it is.

I highly, highly doubt that. There are franchises that don't evens ell a fraction of what Forza sells, and they're still around. I won't by your idea that a developer, who's pushing multi-million sellers like T10 does, doesn't create revenue. Unless, of course, you've got a source to back that one up. Let's also keep in mind that Forza might be more valuable to MS as a system seller than it is as an individual game, to sink their teeth into a market they'd otherwise won't get ahold off.

It could? Well, why? Fable III, for example, didn't even reach four million units sold - if anytrhing, that'd get the cut first, no?

I know this but you have to look at the big picture. They are not having 400 people working on the game, a tiny fraction of that hence why they are still around and some of these small developers might be turning bigger profits than Forza selling less copies. They don’t have other costs such as licensing as such, definitely not as much as the Forza team.

The team making Fable most likely don’t have the same costs. The point is more the bottom line, the creators of Fable might be doing better off than the Forza series.

You know, I'd attribute that more to the misuse of that huge budget. I don't know what PD spend it on, but it is an insane amount of money. If they didn't bother to increase their employee count, that's not some tragic fate, that's just bad resource management.

I wonder, though: Are Kazunori's racing adventured sponsored by PD? And probably included in GT5's budget?
In fact, before going about and claiming that the sole reason to PD's trouble is their man count, I'd think that it might have to do something with their executive director running off to do whatever.

It is not a lot of money for a simulator game with that many cars and tracks. Killzone team most likely spent more and that game is not selling as well. Kaz says himself it is a fairly low amount for what it is and other games are also spending more. Anyway about increasing employee count, they are not the smallest of developers by any means, just as big as Naughty Dog and Santa Monica Studios. It is just that Turn 10 are very large global team, out the ordinary in terms of usual development team sizes. They quite easily could have spent twice as much as PD has, I don’t know as they don’t say maybe because it takes away from some of their achievements.

GT stickers are on a lot of cars. I don’t think they braking the bank letting the series creator race for real and I don’t think he is creating the game alone. He is just there to guide it. He does not have to be there 24/7 365 days a year and not have any life outside his work. What he is doing is helping GT series to so it is not just time wasting. The Forza series could learn a thing or two about car behavior on the limit from the GT series or real life or PC sims. Kaz has first hand experience which he can push through into the game.

It doesn't give you manpower, no. But what it does give you is a fanbase. People who are going to buy GT X no matter what. And creating such a fanbase was far easier for GT5 in the PS1 days as there was little to no competition for them. T10, on the other hand, have had to prove their worth against a hugely successful, established competition with an enormous fanbase, namely Gran Turismo.

If you fail to see how important such aa fanbase is for a game, then I doubt that thhere's much merrit in carrying on with this discussion.

There is still no competition for GT on the PlayStation platform. A game like GT will always sell well. Consoles like PS3 and 360 have roughly the same amount of users. Most casual gamers are not going to buy another console to play a different racing game. There is no other game on the PS3 that has as many cars and tracks as GT. You get a lot of content for the money. Turn 10 initially was created to be like the GT for 360. One of the reasons they were probably created was to help attract PlayStation gamers over to the platform as Microsoft knew how big GT was to the PlayStation brand and it would be crazy not to have a rival.

Look at the cars in FM2/FM3 and tell me they look the same as Forza 1's. They don't. T10 could very well have recycled their assets. But if they did, they made sure to hide that quite well. Look at FM3, for example. There are cars that have been ported, but there's not a single car without cockpit view. There's not a single car that has to rely on details that were textured on instead of modelled.

Recycling the old assets isn't the problem with GT5, it's the fact that the standard cars show it. They don't look like current gen, and if you want to make a case, go ahead and find some cars in FM3 that are of the same low quality as GT5's standard cars. I can assure you, you won't find something with roughly 5000 polys, textured details and without cockpit view in FM3, period.


And then, what would happen then? Forza would start to suffer from the whole "future proving" that PD attempted. I don't want to end up with "standard cars" in Forza, because Dan got too pedantic about car detail that couldn't be used while racing, anyways. I'm kinda glad that T10 doesn't get carried away like that and work for the here and now, instead of trying to create cars for the PS3 when they're developing a PS2 game. Or creating PS4 cars when creating a PS3 games. I've seen PD fail at that, no need to see T10 do so, too.

The actual car asset and detail looks very similar if not the same in FM1 and FM2. Just like PD they have recycled the assets over to the next platform. I beg to differ about T10 not future proofing. Turn 10 definitely already are doing this. The cars in FM1 were most likely made to stand up for next-generation Forza 2 title. http://www.forzastudios.com/media/screenshots/assets/screenshot_41.jpg

See that screenshot, it looks similar to what FM2 looks like and with added graphics horsepower and shaders it would look like FM2. Don’t painters on Forza complain about same problems with certain cars that have remained between the games?

The AutoVista level is really for the next-gen and the other cars in the game also. I think Greenwalt said something about they look at where they want to be in 5 years time when making these decisions. They can do this future proofing well on car models is because they have more people modelling cars in the game than PD have working on the entire game most likely.

It's not going to be cheap. However, they've only got to pay for two years per title. As opposed to GT5's quite lengthy development cycle.

And I'm not trying to say that Forza is created with a much smaller budget (although it probably is, as GT5 is arguably one of the console games with the largest budget to date), I'm just trying to point out that PD is by no means the underdog here, because that's what saidur_ali made it sound like, in my opinion.

PD isn't that poor indy developer who's being crushed by a massive developer, backed by multi-million dollar company that is solely out to destroy PD no matter the cost. PD is backed by a huge company just as much and is just as big of a developer - at least as far as money is concerned. And what else do you need?

What is it with development time? PD have not released only one game, since GT4. If they did I can understand your point but that is clearly not the case.

They are the underdog now. I put it to you this way. Say for example in F1 there is no staff restrictions. A team like say Red Bull of early years have more employees working on the F1 car than McLaren and Ferrari put together. They then dominate F1. Are Ferrari or McLaren not the underdogs just because they have a bigger fanbase? If Forza was outdoing GT with the way Red Bull are doing it to Ferrari and McLaren now then I would have been mighty impressed. However they are not. It is all perspective. Turn 10 have got good infrastructure now, so they can scale back if they want to. Like I said only team comparable to them is the creators of GTA IV and that game cost like $100 million to make. I wouldn't be surprised if Forza cost more to make as Turn 10 team is bigger for Forza 4 and they most likely have to do more licensing deals for their game.

 

[bass264]

I hope Forza 4 will make Kaz wake up.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I hope Forza 4 will make Kaz wake up.

PD already have woken up: https://www.gtplanet.net/polyphony-digital-moves-50-employees-to-fukuoka-japan/.

 

[bass264]

PD already have woken up: https://www.gtplanet.net/polyphony-digital-moves-50-employees-to-fukuoka-japan/.

They moved their offices, but what I mean is that Kaz starts listening to fans, and providing more content. I'm hoping that the Forza's that are made before GT6 sell so well they get near GT(series) sell figures, because then Sony will force Kaz to make better GT games.💡

 

[Griffith500]

Of course.

I still prefer when the game kind of adapt to the limitations of HIDs, even it can lead to a small lack of realism, rather than having the game behave in some kind of super-duper realistic way which is, in the end, completely inconsistent with HIDs. IMO, realism is not just having realistic numbers, it's also having behaviors which are consistent with the interface you're using.

I mean, it really makes little sense having the in-game gearbox in neutral position when you shifter is clearly set in a gear.

Which is why I said we need feedback. A "grinding of gears" sound would tell you your timing was off, but keeping the game trying to get that gear (continuing to "grind") as long as the stick is in that position would take at least half the frustration away and lead to fewer rage moments flapping about trying to find a gear. All you have to do is dip the clutch and the grinding will go away, a gear will be found - either that or just wait for the engine revs to match the input shaft speed required for that gear.
As I said, LFS does this (well, minus the grinding sound unless modded). It's free to try.

Why bother adding a manual clutch if you don't strictly need to use it, though? Mis-shifts are a part of using an H-pattern, and it's down to your consistency and control to get that right. If you can't manage that, that's fine; tweak the settings to be more forgiving - i.e. auto-clutch, more sensitive clutch threshold etc., but don't make out the game is fully manual, because that benefits no-one. (rFactor.)

There's a limited usefulness to clutch assists, psychologically, too. I remember my iRacing settings reset after an update / wheel driver crash or something, and I went into a race not realising that auto clutch had been re-enabled. I couldn't fathom why I couldn't get my shifts perfect (over-revving on re-application of power as the clutch was still dis-engaged) and was also stunned that I didn't miss a single shift in the whole race. The two didn't seem to go together. Needless to say, I found the "error", and my next race was worse than usual in terms of missed shifts.
The same can be said for the way GT5 allows you to relax the amount of "blip" on heel-toe downshifts, which then catches me out in other sims. (Getting in a real car is less of an issue, because the surroundings are different. I cannot at all heel-toe in a real car, and I'm often too scared to even try! The whole thing feels different, and it puts my mind in a different mode, so to speak.)

Sure, you want to be able to get in the game and drive like you do in real life, but we all know that rarely ever happens in a game. You drive faster, react slower (you can't feel the car) and your inputs are far less smooth and sensible. You have to re-condition yourself to the new environment in order to drive "properly".
So the question is, do you make this transition as smooth as possible and forsake realism (heel-toe rev-matching, braking stability, gear changes, overall grip...) or do you represent these things correctly and expect the player to re-calibrate their minds? (Which often doesn't take long, if the player is patient and methodical enough.)

Obviously, you offer both of these, in the form of a good base simulation with driver aids layered on top, clearly labeled as such for those that would rather try without. Even the original F355 Challenge did this, and that was an arcade game.

 

[cuco33]

I don't get myself involved in sales discussions. I'm not a fan and personally don't get any arguments over good sales. I don't work for Sony nor MS nor PD nor T10 so most sales talk on the web is nothing more than pissing contests. It also doesn't yield quality of a game either but I do appreciate when a smaller dev/game sells well since that means that a sequel could come. RacePro I doubt sold well and I doubt we'll see a sequel to it on consoles, as just 1 example. If anyone is Goliath, it's PD/GT, NOT T10/FM.

To me what's more surprising is the money spent and in the time a game's in development. Sure PD worked on other titles between GT4 and GT5 but I personally think TT was adding bikes and some new tracks over to what GT's groundwork already existed. Work made on the GT4 online beta, GTHD, GT5P and GT PSP all went into GT5. 60+Mil is A LOT of money to toss at a developer. And 5+ years is also A LOT of time in today's day and age. This isn't PD that was starting off taking many years to do GT1 since GT1 had to be thought of entirely, and worked on. GT5 is a major extension on that with new technology. PD just never outsourced work nor did they expand their team, all while working on these other gaming projects as well as all the sidetracking projects from 4K tech demos to automotive prototype design. You can only blame PD/Sony for GT5's outcome. PD/Kaz should have realized a few years back that they needed to expand/outsource if they wanted to keep working on all of these side things, along with personal hobbies like Kaz's motorsports experience, and working on the core money maker... gaming development. People for some reason keep justifying the end result as being OK, but in reality it's not. That mentality they had yielded the issues and flaws in GT5.
On a similar note, I think T10 was pushed by MS to get Forza out the door. FM3 in particular was launched without shifting animations and some assets were reused. But to get the game out the door they expanded and outsourced. Think of what GT5 would have been like if a few years back PD expanded or outsourced..

 

[bass264]

I don't get myself involved in sales discussions. I'm not a fan and personally don't get any arguments over good sales. I don't work for Sony nor MS nor PD nor T10 so most sales talk on the web is nothing more than pissing contests. It also doesn't yield quality of a game either but I do appreciate when a smaller dev/game sells well since that means that a sequel could come. RacePro I doubt sold well and I doubt we'll see a sequel to it on consoles, as just 1 example. If anyone is Goliath, it's PD/GT, NOT T10/FM.

To me what's more surprising is the money spent and in the time a game's in development. Sure PD worked on other titles between GT4 and GT5 but I personally think TT was adding bikes and some new tracks over to what GT's groundwork already existed. Work made on the GT4 online beta, GTHD, GT5P and GT PSP all went into GT5. 60+Mil is A LOT of money to toss at a developer. And 5+ years is also A LOT of time in today's day and age. This isn't PD that was starting off taking many years to do GT1 since GT1 had to be thought of entirely, and worked on. GT5 is a major extension on that with new technology. PD just never outsourced work nor did they expand their team, all while working on these other gaming projects as well as all the sidetracking projects from 4K tech demos to automotive prototype design. You can only blame PD/Sony for GT5's outcome. PD/Kaz should have realized a few years back that they needed to expand/outsource if they wanted to keep working on all of these side things, along with personal hobbies like Kaz's motorsports experience, and working on the core money maker... gaming development. People for some reason keep justifying the end result as being OK, but in reality it's not. That mentality they had yielded the issues and flaws in GT5.
On a similar note, I think T10 was pushed by MS to get Forza out the door. FM3 in particular was launched without shifting animations and some assets were reused. But to get the game out the door they expanded and outsourced. Think of what GT5 would have been like if a few years back PD expanded or outsourced..

I'm hoping that either A: GT6 is will be a full game with all the advertised features and lives up to expectations, or B: It sales horribly (if they "GT5" us again) forcing Sony to tell PD and force PD to communicate with fans. Forza isn't perfect, nor is any other racing game but Turn 10 understands and listens to what its fans have to say to make a better game. Importantly Kaz(CEO of PD) is a perfectionist that makes the game the way he wants it, and manages time horribly to release a half assed game.

 

[HBK]

Which is why I said we need feedback. A "grinding of gears" sound would tell you your timing was off, but keeping the game trying to get that gear (continuing to "grind") as long as the stick is in that position would take at least half the frustration away and lead to fewer rage moments flapping about trying to find a gear.

Yeah, agreed.

 

[Luminis]

The figure most likely takes into account cost since GT4 or excluding TT. The assets and games engines used for GT PSP and GT5P were production costs for GT5 as they are assets used. Only PD made these games. The Killzone 2 budget is probably similar to what was GT5 or more . Even the article linked says the developer saying it cost more than a film costing $21m dollars and the rumours are it cost about $60million to produce it. If you put costs for Killzone 3, I think PD have spent less. Kaz said himself he thinks its low cost for what it is.

Every single article I've read, whether it was by videogame webbsites or whatever else stated it to be the budgget for GT5 - not PD'S budget for several years and several games. Just that, the money used for GT5's development. That would mean that it doesn't include TT, GT4, GTPSP or anything else. In fact, you're the first person I've heard that claims that that money didn't go solely towards GT5's development.

And really, I don't give a care about Kazunori's words anymore. Ever since that whole "expect perfection" line he spew, I won't buy into what he claims unless I see it before my eyes. And since it's his project, it'll be only natural that he claims it's low cost for what it is, right? Right.

I know this but you have to look at the big picture. They are not having 400 people working on the game, a tiny fraction of that hence why they are still around and some of these small developers might be turning bigger profits than Forza selling less copies. They don’t have other costs such as licensing as such, definitely not as much as the Forza team.

I think you're missing the bigger picture here. The bigger picture is that Forza not only sells games and creates revenue that way. They've got the DLC to reap more benefits off of every single purchase than GT5, at least potentially. Having more workers on pay is one thing, but unless you're claiming that it took more manhours to get FM3/FM4 out than it took to finish GT5, it doesn't push the price up. Actually, outsourcing a lot of the work will keep the cost per manhour down. That's why it's done in the first place.

The team making Fable most likely don’t have the same costs. The point is more the bottom line, the creators of Fable might be doing better off than the Forza series.

Again, DLC. Which I think the Forza franchise is selling very well, probably better than most other series out there.

It is not a lot of money for a simulator game with that many cars and tracks.

it's not? Okay then, mind showing me a few games with similar assets that had a much larger budget? I'll sit back and wait while you're looking for one.

Killzone team most likely spent more and that game is not selling as well.

Most likely? I actually did a bit of looking around on that matter. Killzone 2 ended up with a total of ~42 million dollars. GT5, though, ended up with a total of around 80 million dollars. If you want to, take a look at this. Appearently, it takes GTA4 to find a game that's more expensive than GT5. So, Killzone 2 being more expensive? I'm afraid that's not the case.

Kaz says himself it is a fairly low amount for what it is and other games are also spending more.

One other game, it seems. I had a feeling Kazunori had a strange idea of resource management, but if he's considering that to be a low amount, that's just plain wrong. I mean, what would a big amount be, then? 150 million dollars?

Anyway about increasing employee count, they are not the smallest of developers by any means, just as big as Naughty Dog and Santa Monica Studios. It is just that Turn 10 are very large global team, out the ordinary in terms of usual development team sizes. They quite easily could have spent twice as much as PD has, I don’t know as they don’t say maybe because it takes away from some of their achievements.

Do you honestly think that Forza, with its two year development cycle and all of the oursourcing to countries like Vietnam has become (at least) the second most expensive console game in history and nobody knows about that?
It for sure is no low budget title, but I don't see a reason why it should exceed GT5's budget, at all. I sincerly doubt that more manhours went into it than into GT5. And thanks to the outsourcing, it's quite probable that Forza would still be cheaper even if the same amount of manhours went into both games.

And that's not taking any other expenses into account, such as advertising (which is done far more for GT5) and such.

GT stickers are on a lot of cars. I don’t think they braking the bank letting the series creator race for real and I don’t think he is creating the game alone. He is just there to guide it. He does not have to be there 24/7 365 days a year and not have any life outside his work.

I guess you don't recognise a joke when you see one, despite the smiley, right?

What he is doing is helping GT series to so it is not just time wasting.

It does? It sure as hell didn't show. Take the endurance races. He participated in one and still, GT5 asks you to do thinks the FIA would prohibit you from doing in a real 24H race. Yeah, his experience is clearly showing. Not.

The Forza series could learn a thing or two about car behavior on the limit from the GT series or real life or PC sims. Kaz has first hand experience which he can push through into the game.

If you want first hand experience, ask a race driver to provide it, no need to get the game's managing director to do it. Additonally, that'd be truly professional feedback, as opposed to Kazunori's.

Also, I sure hope they don't try to learn anything from GT5. Maybe from a PC sim or two, but GT5 has enough flaws itself. If anything, they should try to mimic real life better. And, looking at FM4, it seems they've done so succesfullyy (even with out a racing managing director). All in all, I'd consider it to be farr more valuable if the game's managing director is well versed in making good games, as it would be far harder to get outside influence on that than on the driving physics. Looking at the review and my own experience with FM4, having Kazunori's first hand experience is nothing that couldn't be compensated.

Oh, and by the way: If the game hinges on one person's feedback, I can't see that as a big plus.

There is still no competition for GT on the PlayStation platform.

Just like there is none for FM on the Xbox. So, where exactly does your point of FM not being a commercial hit come from? The million sales they had less with FM3, despite all of the DLC?

A game like GT will always sell well. Consoles like PS3 and 360 have roughly the same amount of users. Most casual gamers are not going to buy another console to play a different racing game. There is no other game on the PS3 that has as many cars and tracks as GT. You get a lot of content for the money.

You're just making a case for Forza as well, though.

Turn 10 initially was created to be like the GT for 360.

That's one of the few points I can agree with. Forza clearly picked up GT's formula at the beginning, but, as you can see, T10 started to branch of into their own direction quite fast, with a much stronger emphasis on the community, for example.

One of the reasons they were probably created was to help attract PlayStation gamers over to the platform as Microsoft knew how big GT was to the PlayStation brand and it would be crazy not to have a rival.

They had a hole in their line up. I suspect they initially tried to fill it with arcade racers, but at the end of the day, they had to rival GT, just like you said. At this point, though, T10 have passed the point of mimicing GT. In fact, I feel like GT should be the franchise that starts copying now, at least as far as the community features are concerned. That's one area GT has been sorely lacking in for years now, if you're asking me.

The actual car asset and detail looks very similar if not the same in FM1 and FM2. Just like PD they have recycled the assets over to the next platform. I beg to differ about T10 not future proofing. Turn 10 definitely already are doing this. The cars in FM1 were most likely made to stand up for next-generation Forza 2 title. http://www.forzastudios.com/media/screenshots/assets/screenshot_41.jpg

See that screenshot, it looks similar to what FM2 looks like and with added graphics horsepower and shaders it would look like FM2. Don’t painters on Forza complain about same problems with certain cars that have remained between the games?

The AutoVista level is really for the next-gen and the other cars in the game also. I think Greenwalt said something about they look at where they want to be in 5 years time when making these decisions. They can do this future proofing well on car models is because they have more people modelling cars in the game than PD have working on the entire game most likely.

My point still stands. Show me a single car that stands out in FM3 as much as the standard cars in GT5. I mean, sure, this isn't really a request or a question, I'm just forcing a point through and I know well enough that it can only go one way, but still.
I don't deny that Forza recycles assets. They don't do it in the blatant, in your face way by just throwing the outdated stuff into the game as it is, though.

What is it with development time? PD have not released only one game, since GT4. If they did I can understand your point but that is clearly not the case.

Are you reffering to the port of GT4 cars and tracks that was GTPSP? They began work on GT5 quite early, they even started with the Vision:GT trailer or whatever it was called, no matter how many sideprojects they had.

They are the underdog now.

I put it to you this way. Say for example in F1 there is no staff restrictions. A team like say Red Bull of early years have more employees working on the F1 car than McLaren and Ferrari put together. They then dominate F1. Are Ferrari or McLaren not the underdogs just because they have a bigger fanbase?

And now, let's assume that there's no budget restrictions, either. McLaren and Ferrari spend way more money on R&D than Redbull does, they just don't bother to hire more employees. They're spening more money, just elsewere. Am I to consider Ferrari and McLaren to be underdogs because they've a huge load of money to spend on their team but just don't want to get more employees even if they could?

Seriously, GT5 is one of the most expensive games on a console. Calling PD an underdog when they had access to one of the largest budgets ever is just plain stupid. That's like saying the Sheikh of Brunai would be the underdog in a race event just because I brought two friends of mine, who have just as little money as I do.

If Forza was outdoing GT with the way Red Bull are doing it to Ferrari and McLaren now then I would have been mighty impressed. However they are not. It is all perspective. Turn 10 have got good infrastructure now, so they can scale back if they want to. Like I said only team comparable to them is the creators of GTA IV and that game cost like $100 million to make. I wouldn't be surprised if Forza cost more to make as Turn 10 team is bigger for Forza 4 and they most likely have to do more licensing deals for their game.

You seem to be entirely hung up on the idea that the size of the team dictates the budget alone. You do realise that the real world doesn't work like that, you know? The major factor to a budget is how manhours are needed. Having 400 people work for a year will cost as much as haviing 100 people work for four years, all else being equal.

But, please, go ahead and show me a source that considers Forza to be among the most expensive games, as GT5 is.

As it is, all I can see here is that you're trying to somehow convince me that a developer with insane monetary possibilities and just as much time on their hands is the underdog in this comparison. Basing it all on assumptions - not only about Forza's budget, but about GT5's budget, as well - and those assumptions even go against quite a few sources stating that GT5 is indeed among the most expensive games you can find.

A game made by one of Sony's first party studios isn't going to be the underdog, period. At least not to the degree where it would actually matter.


Anyways, as far as I am concerned, I won't keep discussing this matter - there's no hint to be found that Forza has a bigger budget than GT; there's no hint to be found that Forza isn't a commercial succes; there's no way in hell one could claim that Forza ports is assets over as obviously as GT5 does. And if those are the assumptions under which this is supposed to keep going, I'll rather refrain from indulging in this debate before wasting anymore time with it.

 

[HBK]

There is no underdog here. We're talking about companies handling millions, backed up by companies handling billions. It does seem like a fair fight from where I stand.

Anyway, budgets are irrelevant. Only the end result shall matter to us, gamers. It's not like the game is priced depending on how much the game was expensive to develop.

Edit : I apologize if I may sound like captain obvious but I really think we shall never forget, you know, some basics. Some roots. Desiring to know more about games and their developers is only natural. But in the end, knowing which one spends more money than the other shouldn't matter. At all.

I think

 

[Luminis]

There is no underdog here. We're talking about companies handling millions, backed up by companies handling billions. It does seem like a fair fight from where I stand.

Exactly.

Anyway, budgets are irrelevant. Only the end result shall matter to us, gamers. It's not like the game is priced depending on how much the game was expensive to develop.

Agreed. Outside of the game itself, the only thing I really care about is the time I have to wait for the game to be available.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I felt it was a bit twitchy at first, had a better feel to it than Prologue no doubt, but twitchy nonetheless. I got used to it in the end but not as apparently fluent as things became once GT5 rolled around. Which for some reason gives off the impression that things may have toned down ever so slightly. I could be wrong though.

Ok I was just curious. I spent so very little time with that demo that I wasn't really able to obtain much of an impression unfortunately.

It does not look close to GT5's gameplay Graphics. But seems like physics are way improved over FM3! I can't wait to feel it and compare to GT5

I'm going to be honest & say I agree with him.

The reason it probably looked good to you (& in the video above) is because the track was the Alps, a brand new circuit to the series that has constantly been used by the team to showcase their improvements.
The video showing the C6R though, was Road America, a track from FM3.

Now, considering the fact that when you put some of the FM3 models against the FM4 ones (say, the F50 vs. the F1 or 599 GTO) & how noticeable the difference is between the models (mainly due to the FM3 models being re-polished carry-overs), I wouldn't put it past T10 to apply the same technique to the tracks.

And judging by the video, that's what they did. The Road America track will no doubt look better than in FM3, but it certainly doesn't appear to be anywhere as graphically pretty as the Alps, just like the F50 isn't as well detailed overall next to the 599 GTO. I'm not holding it against T10 as a con, but let's be real & not attempt to throw out the "It's a YouTube video" line. The Road America track wasn't modeled anywhere near to the same level of the Alps & so far, only that track has really been said to reach the same level of eye candy as GT5.

I noticed in the video, that Road America seems to have received a substantial update. They put in the new bridge (the Corvette bridge) which replaced the Toyota bridge )turn 6). Granted that is just a banner change. But they did some track changes too. The final turn at Road America was actually too sharp in the game, and they addressed that in FM4 as noted by the video. Rumble strips were updated at turn 5 for sure, and the additional asphalt added to turn 12 (Canada Corner to Thunder valley) when NASCAR required it's addition last year before they would race.

Judging by the video, the track got a pretty good make over.

 

[cuco33]

There is no underdog here. We're talking about companies handling millions, backed up by companies handling billions. It does seem like a fair fight from where I stand.

Anyway, budgets are irrelevant. Only the end result shall matter to us, gamers. It's not like the game is priced depending on how much the game was expensive to develop.

Edit : I apologize if I may sound like captain obvious but I really think we shall never forget, you know, some basics. Some roots. Desiring to know more about games and their developers is only natural. But in the end, knowing which one spends more money than the other shouldn't matter. At all.

I think

In a way I disagree. Fans of a developer/game franchise can question where the time and money went to when a game is released with glaring issues. GT5 is a perfect example of this. I figured it'd cost a bit of money to develop the game but 5+ years and 60+million... you don't expect the port job that occured.

It is what it is. I think GT5 gets flacked way too much and to some extent it's deserved but the game still looks and plays great, has a butt load of content and is the latest GT title, something all the GT fans have been wanting since the mere mention of the PS3. I wouldn't put it on a pedastal by any means though

 

[McLaren]

I noticed in the video, that Road America seems to have received a substantial update. They put in the new bridge (the Corvette bridge) which replaced the Toyota bridge )turn 6). Granted that is just a banner change. But they did some track changes too. The final turn at Road America was actually too sharp in the game, and they addressed that in FM4 as noted by the video. Rumble strips were updated at turn 5 for sure, and the additional asphalt added to turn 12 (Canada Corner to Thunder valley) when NASCAR required it's addition last year before they would race.

Judging by the video, the track got a pretty good make over.

I also made that reply before I saw the FM3 vs. FM4 video. After seeing that, I noticed most of what you mentioned, which is why even though I still stand by what I said about GT5, I'm giving a little more props to T10 for not just porting it over & calling it done. 👍

 

[t.o.]

Most of the sales dominance for GT series is in EU where according to some sites the 360 has sold more consoles there. You could say the same thing about blinding loyalty in the US. Imagine if Sony had that area covered, you would have most likely seen sales figures similar to old like the PS2 generation for the GT series.


About the hatred part, you just have to go to the GT5 section to see this but I'm sure many will come back as there is not an alternative for many on the PS3 platform. It is not like you are getting shortchanged by buying GT5. It is one of best value for money games out there for the PS3, if not the best and the value is increasing with the updates.

You're pretty much making this easy for me. If the US was so "blindly loyal" the PS2 wouldn't have taken off at all. The 360 is dominating for simple reasons. It came out first and it gave the gamers what they wanted. Also it seems to cater to the gamer who can buy his own games instead of waiting for mommy to get it for christmas.

Toyota sells more cars in the US than anybody. If the US public does have a fault it's "loyality". So whatever you see is more of an indictment of the PS3 and Sony's plan than anything else. You got to remember ALOT of people bought PS3's just for GT5. This whole experience has made people feel ripped off, shortchanged or midly disappointed. For myself there will be no purchase of the PS4 unless it can do some things , aside from gaming, that I need done OR GT6 is released and some of the harshest critics sing it's praises. I'm of the midly disappointed myself since I did want the blu-ray feature and the media streaming. Although that's turning into another story.

 

[Vaxxtx]

About the hatred part, you just have to go to the GT5 section to see this but I'm sure many will come back as there is not an alternative for many on the PS3 platform. It is not like you are getting shortchanged by buying GT5. It is one of best value for money games out there for the PS3, if not the best and the value is increasing with the updates.

That isnt true for everyone. Shift2 is an alternative. Not to everyones taste, but it is for some prefer it over GT5 and some prefer it over FM3.

GT5 was my least played game on the PS3. I spent money on it. I tried and tried to understand what the "hype" was. I was told I was lucky, there was the OCD, and events! I went through A Spec, and B Spec, the new events, and still sat there wondering how people actually get excited to play it. It bored me to no end. So, I traded it in. I got a few weeks out of it. Thats is it. I felt shortchanged.

So for YOU it may be the best value on the PS3, but its hard to make that statement for everyone.

 

[Luminis]

GT5 was my least played game on the PS3. I spent money on it. I tried and tried to understand what the "hype" was. I was told I was lucky, there was the OCD, and events! I went through A Spec, and B Spec, the new events, and still sat there wondering how people actually get excited to play it. It bored me to no end. So, I traded it in. I got a few weeks out of it. Thats is it. I felt shortchanged.

It was just about the same for me. I tried for two months and never really got into it. I played through it and it felt more like a chore to keep going. The hotlapping felt nice and was fun, but it was too small a part of the game to keep my interest for long.

There were quite a few games that could provide me with more 'value' than that, even outside of racing games. Red Dead Redemption did so and Fallout: New Vegas did as well... It's just a matter of taste.

 

[HBK]

If you have a decent PC, you should try the X series, or ArmA if you are into online gaming. Hundreds of hours of pure bliss 👍

The ride can be a bit rough though, especially around the edges

Sorry for the off-topic

 

[Vaxxtx]

If you have a decent PC, you should try the X series, or ArmA if you are into online gaming. Hundreds of hours of pure bliss 👍

The ride can be a bit rough though, especially around the edges

Sorry for the off-topic

Played the original ArmA quite a bit. Played all the X series. Love them...one of the best ever, Terran Conflict.

Sorry for off topic, but yes, the X series has payed for itself 20 times over with the entertainment.

 

[slipp3h]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone, it sounds like I won't be disappointed by Forza. Hopefully 4 only improves upon what you've said is true in 3.

Now I just need confirmation that the E46 M3 is in the game and I'll be all set. So tired of driving the "standard" e46 in GT5.

Consequently, my Fanatec GT3RS is for sale if anyone wants it

I have a GT2, both systems, and GT5 and FM3. FM3 is a little bit light on the FFB, but it's far from unusable. In fact, I prefer the driving feel to FM3 than GT5. In fact, if you tinker with the Fanatec settings, you can get FM3 to feel really really good. There's two reason why I prefer the driving of FM3 to GT5: One is that FM3 uses Clutch + H-gate shifter quite well, while GT5 you have to do everything perfectly, therefore it's not that fluid. Second is that GT5 is way too jittery for my liking, and you have to dial in some artificial dead zone on the wheel. It's annoying. FM3 is extremely smooth on the wheel, and I think you're missing out horribly if you don't at least try it. All of this is my opinion, therefore you are free to ignore it.

Edit - Regarding what I said in bold - Before I get yelled at about "Well, you have to do everything perfectly in GT5, because it's the real driving simulator, so it's being real." Yes, it's good to be perfect with your shifts, but I don't want to be in a middle of a heated race, and I happen to not shift perfectly, I don't want my transmission to revert to neutral every time I slightly mis-shift. It's annoying, stupid, and wrong.

I can yell right back at them. Shifting in GT5 is NO WAY near real life. I've driven quite a few sticks in my life and not ONE was anywhere near what GT5 portrays. Meanwhile FM3 is extremely closer to the real thing than GT5 can ever wish to be. I say this with some anger because just messing around with GT5's stupid clutch implementation put needless wear on my 6-speed shifter. FM3 is very smooth and lifelike. Sure you won't stall your car in the middle of the road or anything where you'd have to restart it (neither game does that by the way) but aside from that it's as life like as I've ever played.

GT5's implementation of the stick is as half assed as the standard/premium thing. Too me it's THAT bad. And what gets me is how people could even defend that garbage. I really think these guys haven't driven a stick, scratch that, a car in their lives.

Now slipp3h you asked about the steering. As Pakt has said you're gonna want to tweak some settings and you'll have quite a range of them between the Fanatec wheel itself and the game. One thing you'll get is nice effects aside from the main force feedback. Remember that the 360 compatible wheels from Fanatec (and the original 360 wheel) come with 3 motors. 2 of those motor's sole responsibility is things like rumble and engine vibration. You will feel things you've NEVER felt with the PS3 since no wheel made for it has these motors for these particular duties.

I agree with most of this. The feeling of the H-gate is much more natural in FM3. Less like switches being activated, more like a mechanical device (a bit forgiving though). Also the clutch feels fully analog, in GT its more like clutch engaged/clutch disengaged. Understeering feedback is also better implemented. You really feel the steering wheel gradualy getting looser as understeer is building at turn entry or exit.

That said, GT5 have stronger force feedback that makes you feel the weight transfer much, much better than FM3. Like when you hit a bump in an off-camber turn, the wheel really transmit the right movement, its absolutely awesome. But you already experienced that with your GT3rs, its just for comparison...

FM3 with a Fanatec is really good. I actually prefer it to GT5. It's definitely a little lighter but there seems to be more detail. Especially from the front end of the car. Take a fwd car as an example I find it much easier to tell when the front end is losing grip when modulating the throttle whilst still turning. You definitely won't be dissapointed.

 

[Luminis]

Now I just need confirmation that the E46 M3 is in the game and I'll be all set. So tired of driving the "standard" e46 in GT5.

Here you go, curtesy of Badned at forzacentral. That's where I looked it up, at least.

(The grey car next to the red 1 Series.)

And, in case it's needed for future reference, here's the link to their car list.

 

[slipp3h]

That's awesome, thanks for the link - much more comprehensive than the confirmed car list here.

Even Forza 4's partial car list is absolutely destroying GT5, at least as far as the cars I'm interested in.

Hopefully the wheel selection of F4 similarly puts GT5 to shame, need more BBS!

 

[Bogie 19th]

If you have a decent PC, you should try the X series, or ArmA if you are into online gaming. Hundreds of hours of pure bliss 👍

The ride can be a bit rough though, especially around the edges

Sorry for the off-topic

I wish I could get ARMA 3 for my computer, but I all have Macs at home, and I don't want to bootcamp them.

 

[LaBounti]

That's awesome, thanks for the link - much more comprehensive than the confirmed car list here.

Even Forza 4's partial car list is absolutely destroying GT5, at least as far as the cars I'm interested in.

Hopefully the wheel selection of F4 similarly puts GT5 to shame, need more BBS!

I can't agree with you more and I'm not a die hard FM fan. In fact they could recycle FM3's roster completely without adding one new car and its still better and its last DLC came out before GT5 came out. Sad Sad.. Ok Maybe add the 2010 RS5 and its set .

 

[bullet360]

The poor image comparison is just a point being made, someone using the worst GT5 image they can find comparing it to the best FM image they can find.

The duplicated car thing I found very funny. I can't believe a member seriously said they were being generous when they made that list. The only way you could generalise car models is to go along the lines of a Ford is a Ford. I understand there a lot of very similar cars in GT5, I know because I nearly bought all of them but there are a lot of unique cars. If you generalise Rally, Road and Race cars with also diffferent models as being the same then I don't see why this shows a bias to GT for speaking up against someone stating such a thing. It would be wrong not to.

I couldnt agree more, so many forza/gt comparisons have either been "debunked" or re compared. Not really helping the image of forza's fanbase when they (fm fans) create almost unethical comparisons... I mean, not only were they comparing standards on (obviously) low quality generated couses (Mt Aso) to some of fm3's nicest models and scenery, but they also made it seem quite a challenge to get the same camera angles in 2 different games. And yes there are more and better (fair) comparisons that are not only out there and around, but why is it that the really bad ones are always the ones that appear the most? We only support facts that are stated to support (or balance) the level of competition. (which forza has sucessfully been claimed as and hailed as, which is a huge statement in my opinion, since the GT series has been around since the first playstation)
Soo KUDO's T10 !

I hope Forza 4 will make Kaz wake up.

Hopefully he doen't metaphorically hit the "snooze" button... For the sake of competition, and the GT franchise

 

[Morsolo]

Well I just bought an XBox a couple days ago and have been playing Forza 3 a lot. I got bored on Gran Turismo and figured I'd check out the competition. I would have always said that I'm a Playstation fan, or at least, I would always make fun of my mates with XBoxes.

I've been playing Forza and my immediate impression of the game was the cleanliness of the menus. I've never had an issue with GT5's menus, but Forza is certainly clean and beautiful.

However, my first major issue with Forza came when it was time to pick a car. I had to pick a crappy "new" car out of a list of crappier cars. I really really enjoyed picking an old bomb in Gran Turismo and working your way up, there is none of that in Forza, everything is brand new, even the old cars; and I don't like that. KY's vision of "driving your own car in a game" does not apply in Forza.

On that note, something that really annoys me is, why do racing games continuously ignore Australia? We have some of the deepest racing history in the world, along with probably the most devoted and passionate fans in the world. Our racing was "mans racing", where someone would drive their kids to the track, kick them out and ruin there car with a bunch of other blokes around Mount Panorama. Forza scores massive points for at least including V8 Supercars. Gran Turismo loses all credibility here because of their 3 Australian cars that were all lame copy-pastes from GT4 (and GT3 in the case of the AU Falcon).

Second thing I noticed was, oh hello, the graphics look almost as good as Gran Turismo's! For the XBox, which I had long considered the vastly more primitive console, it was certainly shoving that notion in my face.

Jumping into a race brought about the next thing I noticed about Forza. Turn 10 certainly have put more effort into the car sounds than Polyphony did. My current favourite car, my Maserati GranTurismo (ironic name) sounds awesome, much nicer in Forza than in GT.

Then another issue pops up. The prize system in Forza is horrible. Perhaps I haven't gotten far enough into the game yet, but I don't see it changing... In GT, you break your fingers trying to win a really hard championship with an underpowered car (Historic Cup I'm looking at you) to hopefully win a great prize car! ...In Forza, they just give you the car when you level up.

I still think the best prize system was GT3's. Four cars, 2 were usually duds, 1 was good and 1 was awesome. It made every single event that much more surprising, as frustrating as it were.

Racing around the track definitely is better in Forza, no question about it. The AI is realms ahead of GT's drones; and there is a higher sense of speed. When I'm driving at 200km/h, I can see the car squirming and jumping at every little bump in the road. The damage system on both games is pretty crap, but Forza trumps GT again in this respect. I think the paint scratching is tad overdone sometimes (or underdone at others), but it definitely gives you more of a sense of scraping past someone that GT doesn't have.

Forza does reward better drivers though, turning off each assist increases prize money, this is an awesome feature that encourages people to learn and to stop relying on assists.

Also, the vinyl design feature is amazing. I LOVE IT. Forza easily has the one up here, you have the opportunity to create your "unique" car, GT gives you no such thing, at all. I remember it was rumoured to be in GT5, but then again, a lot of things were.

One lasting impression I have though is that Forza has a bit more "arcade" in it than Gran Turismo. Forza feels a bit (tiny tiny bit) more like "Need for Speed", than GT. I am by no means saying Forza is any less of a "simulation" than GT, because really, neither game is a simulation. But Forza feels a bit more "fun" and less of a "chore" sometimes.

This is all I can remember at the moment, but I'll keep it updated and may write a blog post (or do another video) later on with more detail and once I've got to know Forza more.

All in all, at the moment, I wouldn't claim one is better than the other... But I can say I am perfectly happy with dropping $400 into an XBox for the sole purpose of getting Forza, because it is damn fun!

 

[Vaxxtx]

Well I just bought an XBox a couple days ago and have been playing Forza 3 a lot. I got bored on Gran Turismo and figured I'd check out the competition. I would have always said that I'm a Playstation fan, or at least, I would always make fun of my mates with XBoxes.

I've been playing Forza and my immediate impression of the game was the cleanliness of the menus. I've never had an issue with GT5's menus, but Forza is certainly clean and beautiful.

However, my first major issue with Forza came when it was time to pick a car. I had to pick a crappy "new" car out of a list of crappier cars. I really really enjoyed picking an old bomb in Gran Turismo and working your way up, there is none of that in Forza, everything is brand new, even the old cars; and I don't like that. KY's vision of "driving your own car in a game" does not apply in Forza.

On that note, something that really annoys me is, why do racing games continuously ignore Australia? We have some of the deepest racing history in the world, along with probably the most devoted and passionate fans in the world. Our racing was "mans racing", where someone would drive their kids to the track, kick them out and ruin there car with a bunch of other blokes around Mount Panorama. Forza scores massive points for at least including V8 Supercars. Gran Turismo loses all credibility here because of their 3 Australian cars that were all lame copy-pastes from GT4 (and GT3 in the case of the AU Falcon).

Second thing I noticed was, oh hello, the graphics look almost as good as Gran Turismo's! For the XBox, which I had long considered the vastly more primitive console, it was certainly shoving that notion in my face.

Jumping into a race brought about the next thing I noticed about Forza. Turn 10 certainly have put more effort into the car sounds than Polyphony did. My current favourite car, my Maserati GranTurismo (ironic name) sounds awesome, much nicer in Forza than in GT.

Then another issue pops up. The prize system in Forza is horrible. Perhaps I haven't gotten far enough into the game yet, but I don't see it changing... In GT, you break your fingers trying to win a really hard championship with an underpowered car (Historic Cup I'm looking at you) to hopefully win a great prize car! ...In Forza, they just give you the car when you level up.

I still think the best prize system was GT3's. Four cars, 2 were usually duds, 1 was good and 1 was awesome. It made every single event that much more surprising, as frustrating as it were.

Racing around the track definitely is better in Forza, no question about it. The AI is realms ahead of GT's drones; and there is a higher sense of speed. When I'm driving at 200km/h, I can see the car squirming and jumping at every little bump in the road. The damage system on both games is pretty crap, but Forza trumps GT again in this respect. I think the paint scratching is tad overdone sometimes (or underdone at others), but it definitely gives you more of a sense of scraping past someone that GT doesn't have.

Forza does reward better drivers though, turning off each assist increases prize money, this is an awesome feature that encourages people to learn and to stop relying on assists.

Also, the vinyl design feature is amazing. I LOVE IT. Forza easily has the one up here, you have the opportunity to create your "unique" car, GT gives you no such thing, at all. I remember it was rumoured to be in GT5, but then again, a lot of things were.

One lasting impression I have though is that Forza has a bit more "arcade" in it than Gran Turismo. Forza feels a bit (tiny tiny bit) more like "Need for Speed", than GT. I am by no means saying Forza is any less of a "simulation" than GT, because really, neither game is a simulation. But Forza feels a bit more "fun" and less of a "chore" sometimes.

This is all I can remember at the moment, but I'll keep it updated and may write a blog post (or do another video) later on with more detail and once I've got to know Forza more.

All in all, at the moment, I wouldn't claim one is better than the other... But I can say I am perfectly happy with dropping $400 into an XBox for the sole purpose of getting Forza, because it is damn fun!

I did the same thing you did about 2 weeks ago. I still play Shift2 on PS3 because of the online league and I just love it, but getting FM3 and Race Pro, and an XBox has been awesome. I got rid of GT5 though, and wont be touching it again.

The only thing I miss is using the MS Wheel and not my DFGT. BUT...come Sept, I will have my Fanatec GT2, so all will be good.

 

[phil-t]

I couldnt agree more, so many forza/gt comparisons have either been "debunked" or re compared. Not really helping the image of forza's fanbase when they (fm fans) create almost unethical comparisons... I mean, not only were they comparing standards on (obviously) low quality generated couses (Mt Aso) to some of fm3's nicest models and scenery, but they also made it seem quite a challenge to get the same camera angles in 2 different games. And yes there are more and better (fair) comparisons that are not only out there and around, but why is it that the really bad ones are always the ones that appear the most? We only support facts that are stated to support (or balance) the level of competition. (which forza has sucessfully been claimed as and hailed as, which is a huge statement in my opinion, since the GT series has been around since the first playstation)
Soo KUDO's T10 !

The truth is that there is equal fanboyism on both sides, just look on places like NeoGAF and look at the "FM3 vs GT5" thread on there, which is bad enough, but it doesn't hold a candle to the fanboy meltdowns in the actual main threads..

There is zero doubt in my mind that GT fanboys very much == FM Fanboys, they are all a mis-informed and easily led cross section of society..

 

[Nooboogering]

Yes, fans in Neofaqs can go off the scale with their opinions but to me its a machine war i.e. the best racing title on either machine is Forza and GT, what is a fanboy to do?
I suppose he picks one, tries it out for a while and finds out he likes the other one best and while debating in the forums tries to translate the need of his differences from the two as in: i need my car to look unique: i need to make my own tracks. Fanboys love machines and machinations