FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Terronium-12]

Funny enough, Dan. Shift 2 didn't have to cut down the number of cars on track, use pastgen models and build specific tracks.

Tell me, how much of Unleashed is based off of the engine already used in the previous game, and how much of it is an entirely new engine? See how irrelevant that is already? I could go on but there's really no need to now is there...

It only has 30 fps, yes.

Which is a sacrifice they weren't willing to undergo. You realize Unleashed gets choppy on particular tracks with a full 16 car grid, especially when custom liveries are involved.

But as well as that it has dynamic lighting from every cars' headlights.

Which FM doesn't have even on day tracks from any other sources rather than just sun.

And you know this to be a fact? If your retort is anything along the following: "Refer to the E3/Gamescon demo." Just...don't.

And IBL seems to have its faults as well, for example any car in the tunnel turning black and no shadows casted from track lights.

This makes no sense and I'll explain why: When there's no direct light to refract off of the cars surface where's the shadow supposed to come from? Now if there are lights aligned on the shoulders of the tunnel (or on it's roof for that matter) you'd end up with dynamic panning/strobing shadows. Now if that's not included then there's a problem.

Seems like they are being lazy.
Whats the big deal with dropping a few FPS.
If I can get some night races, 'm willing to drop A FEW fps

30 is not a few, 30 is half of 60 (obviously) and it'll be noticeable from the get-go. This is of course assuming it were to be a steady 30 frames.

And if being precocious translates to lazy, then PD must be even lazier considering they went the route...and how did that turn out?

 

[jabofu]

Seems like they are being lazy.
Whats the big deal with dropping a few FPS.
If I can get some night races, 'm willing to drop A FEW fps

Lazy? No, they just have cycle of 2 years for the Forza games and they implement great stuff in such a short time.

60 FPS are very important for a stable and fast racing experience. I would not want to sacrifice that for some fake weather or dull night racing.

The current console version is just not powerful enough for this game. Even GT5 suffers from the lack of power of the PS3.

So, reading yours and other opinions on this, I assume that you dont really care about the core essentials of a simulation racer.

 

[ZSPaulus]

I would never want to sacrifice the framerate for night racing and weather effects. I drift GT5 everyday (okay almost everyday) and the numbers of times that i have drifted in the rain is countable on one hand. Night time drifting is no fun because your headlights arent facing the direction you need to look at.. yes it creates an extra difficulty level; but its not what i need..

 

[OGL]

Forza doesn't have dynamic lighting. Simple as that. The lighting on the track is baked in the textures. The lighting inside the cars seem to work only from the outsides. Just a simple example - you can't see the shadows of the steering wheel in any case, while in S2U and GT5 you can.
I don't say that static lighting is bad, it is just the fact that FM can't do time change.
I'm okay with day racing.
And yeah, I've not played S2U on the consoles, played it on PC, so didn't know about its perfomance.

 

[Terronium-12]

Forza doesn't have dynamic lighting. Simple as that.

Really, it's "simple as that"? How about the fact that IBL relies upon global illumination, which despite your attempts to "prove" otherwise, is very much dynamic.

The lighting on the track is baked in the textures.

No.

The lighting inside the cars seem to work only from the outsides.

Not really sure what you're saying here. Do you mean light only enters from the outside, or you can only see apparent refraction from the outside?

t is just the fact that FM can't do time change.

Except it does, it just isn't dynamic and is limited only to dusk.

 

[Spagetti69]

TBH. Changes from day to night in one lap is more like grand theft auto.

Not knocking it. If 24hr race save were possible I would be interested.

 

[OGL]

Really, it's "simple as that"? How about the fact that IBL relies upon global illumination, which despite your attempts to "prove" otherwise, is very much dynamic.



No.



Not really sure what you're saying here. Do you mean light only enters from the outside, or you can only see apparent refraction from the outside?



Except it does, it just isn't dynamic and is limited only to dusk.

From what I know IBL is a worse version of GI and is in fact static, the consoles are not powerfull enough to do it in realtime. Another example - CryEngine 3 and Crysis 2 has Global Illumination, but it only works in realtime on PC version of the game. Same with Battlefield 3.
I mean that the shadows in the cockpit are only casted by the light entering the external boundaries of the cockpit - the windshield and sides. There are no shadows from the steering wheel or the driver.
If the engine allowed for dynamic time change and dynamic lighting then it would be done, but it doesn't. That's why you have to load a whole a new map with the changed lighting conditions that were drawn into the tracks' textures.
Static shadows are pretty easy to detect as in games they are always blurry and not as crisp as dynamic ones.

 

[JJ72]

not true though, about dynamic shadows, it's entirely separate from dynamic lighting.



You can see the instrument cluster housing casting shadow on the dash, and the arms casting shadow on the doors. However the wheel and I presume the gearstick isn't casting any shadows, however it's down to the shadow properties rather than outright limitation of the engine.

dynamic lighting is the fact that you can have a moving light source, which is achievable if you allow an extra layer of shading on top of what the IBL provides, but then will it nullifies the point of using IBL map I would not know.

and as for shadows casted from a dynamic light source being more clear and precise, GT5 is an exact testament to the opposite of that, the need to create transitional lighting is the biggest reason GT5 have blocky and flickering shadows (coupled with lack of memory for higher res shadow passes)

 

[OGL]

Oh well, okay.
But one good thing - looks like FM 3 featured vehicles for disabled, as the driver doesn't have any legs, lol.

 

[I'm Motarded]

Once compromises creep in where do you stop? Dumb down the AI to free up resources.

I'm glad somebody else realizes physics might take a hit too. A choppy Framerate and fluctuating 360hz (I think this is what FM3/4 runs at) Physics engine isn't that desirable for me. Why are people so impatient? 28 months until FM5. FM4 will keep me happy until then, 60 fps @ night with rain will be amazing should it happen. I know the 60fps in any situation the game can throw it will at least.

 

[HBK]

I hear some people speak as if Global Illumination was some kind of technique or algorithm. This is a misunderstanding. Global illumination is a concept.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_illumination

"True" global illumination will not be achieved in real time anytime soon. What we have now is sets of clever tricks which are becoming more and more advanced but are still tricks to give the illusion of global illumination.

Also, don't confuse lighting and shadowing. Right now, and for some time to come, those two are (almost) completely different beasts in regards to rendering engines.

I would bet the issue in Forza 4 rendering engine (in regards to having different times of day) is not so much variable lighting as it is variable shadowing (which is of course entirely pre-baked).

 

[cuco33]

Did I just read AutoVista mode will only have some 25-26 cars in this mode?! Wow... That's really disappointing to me. Maybe more will come via patch/updates or DLC but if FM4 is to have some 600 cars, AV will only cater to 5% of all cars... that to me is a waste.

In regards to frame rate drops, sorry but I'd rather sacrifice quality of textures and models to keep frame rate as stable/consistent and as high as possible. I loathe games when they slow down. Can't stand it personally.

 

[jabofu]

Did I just read AutoVista mode will only have some 25-26 cars in this mode?! Wow... That's really disappointing to me. Maybe more will come via patch/updates or DLC but if FM4 is to have some 600 cars, AV will only cater to 5% of all cars... that to me is a waste.

In regards to frame rate drops, sorry but I'd rather sacrifice quality of textures and models to keep frame rate as stable/consistent and as high as possible. I loathe games when they slow down. Can't stand it personally.

There will be 500 cars at release. 320 from FM 3 + 90 FM 3 DLC cars + 90 complete new cars (including the muscle car pack). There will be monthly dlc following and it might scratch the 600 cars after a year. You can read it from the Under the Hood 2.

I think Autovista is nice and shows us the future as some stated.

 

[Vaxxtx]

Did I just read AutoVista mode will only have some 25-26 cars in this mode?! Wow... That's really disappointing to me. Maybe more will come via patch/updates or DLC but if FM4 is to have some 600 cars, AV will only cater to 5% of all cars... that to me is a waste.

In regards to frame rate drops, sorry but I'd rather sacrifice quality of textures and models to keep frame rate as stable/consistent and as high as possible. I loathe games when they slow down. Can't stand it personally.

I wont even touch AV so I vould care less about that TBH.

I really am upset about the lack of weather and night racing. How did Shift2 do night racing so well?

 

[PzR Slim]

I wont even touch AV so I vould care less about that TBH.

I really am upset about the lack of weather and night racing. How did Shift2 do night racing so well?

30 fps

 

[jabofu]

30 fps

They used also other tricks, so the game looks still "good". GT and FM doesnt use those tricks and work hard to achieve the best.

It is still impressive, that GT made all the night and weather stuff. Maybe not 100 % accurate, but sure a great experience. I think thats also a benefit of the PS3.

 

[OGL]

And what tricks does Shift 2 use exactly? It has dynamic lighting from over 32 sources of light at once, realtime reflections on the hood, the best cockpits of any racer.

 

[Vaxxtx]

They used also other tricks, so the game looks still "good". GT and FM doesnt use those tricks and work hard to achieve the best.

It is still impressive, that GT made all the night and weather stuff. Maybe not 100 % accurate, but sure a great experience. I think thats also a benefit of the PS3.

Eh...the weather in GT5 was nice...but it was only on certain tracks. Inconsitent like all things in GT5.

Night racing was horrible in GT5. I could race with headlights off and have no problem. Even S2 running at 30fps the night racing was the best I have ever seen. The headlights were actually needed. Lighting effect top notch. Lights on cars, and on the track looked so real.

Ah well..it will be missed in FM4, and not even a second thought in GT5.

 

[PzR Slim]

And what tricks does Shift 2 use exactly? It has dynamic lighting from over 32 sources of light at once, realtime reflections on the hood, the best cockpits of any racer.

I've no idea what tricks are used but don't you think a 50% reduction in fps gives a lot of headroom to play with. Personally after having got used to the silky smooth 60 fps of Forza I wouldn't want to trade that for anything. I'm happy to wait until FM5 on new hardware to get other goodies.

 

[OGL]

Eh...the weather in GT5 was nice...but it was only on certain tracks. Inconsitent like all things in GT5.

Night racing was horrible in GT5. I could race with headlights off and have no problem. Even S2 running at 30fps the night racing was the best I have ever seen. The headlights were actually needed. Lighting effect top notch. Lights on cars, and on the track looked so real.

Ah well..it will be missed in FM4, and not even a second thought in GT5.

Mmm, from what I remember you can't turn the headlights off in GT5, you can't break them either

 

[Vaxxtx]

Mmm, from what I remember you can't turn the headlights off in GT5, you can't break them either

I meant they were not needed. They didnt iluminate anything past 10 feet. In S2 they WERE needed, and getting them broken sucked on a dark track.

 

[jabofu]

I meant they were not needed. They didnt iluminate anything past 10 feet. In S2 they WERE needed, and getting them broken sucked on a dark track.

Time Attack Hypermax Evo at night at Nordschleife in GT5?

 

[OGL]

I guess the brightness on my TV was too low, because I had to rely a lot on headlights in GT5 and not being able to see anything aside from it is quiet realistic. In Shift 2 you can still see the track. In GT 5 you can't. Try going on Nur or Le man in a Nascar or a Cart.

 

[Bogie 19th]

It is still impressive, that GT made all the night and weather stuff. Maybe not 100 % accurate, but sure a great experience. I think thats also a benefit of the PS3.

GT made the weather, night and smoke, but did exactly what Turn 10 didn't want to do, have them turn out glitchy and poor performance. With the 360 and PS3 being pretty much equal in power, I think it comes down to GT5 sacrificing (like FM does). GT sacrifices not having 4000 layers x 16 cars (livery), GT sacrifices some physics calculations (IMO), and of course we get blocky rain, blocky smoke, no headlights in standard cars, and lower detailed tracks.

It's a give and take for both games.

 

[cuco33]

There will be 500 cars at release. 320 from FM 3 + 90 FM 3 DLC cars + 90 complete new cars (including the muscle car pack). There will be monthly dlc following and it might scratch the 600 cars after a year. You can read it from the Under the Hood 2.

I think Autovista is nice and shows us the future as some stated.

Just came across the car count in another thread. Still it's 5% for the new mode. I really hope they add a lot to AV mode. I was expecting a minimum of 100 cars after how much they hyped the new mode (probably pushed by MS as it features Kinect functionality). Just kind of bummed bout this. I thought my girl and some non gaming but car guy friends would get a kick out of this mode.

 

[Luminis]

Even if it was hyped up, I think that AutoVista is still just an addition, not the man focus of the game. I'd rather see a new car to modify and race with than an AutoVista car I can only look at... But that's just me.

 

[OGL]

And yeah, we already know 23 cars from AV, they are not that special, all supercars.

 

[Bogie 19th]

^Not all special to you, but might be to others. They can't appease everyone of course.

 

[Luminis]

And, in my opinion, they don't have to. They cater to a very wide audience with the cars you can actually paint, tune and race - AutoVista not having a wide selection of cars really shouldn't be much of a problem.

 

[zr1chris]

^Not all special to you, but might be to others. They can't appease everyone of course.

Agreed.

I'm not that interested in having the (example) 02 Camaro SS in Autovista seeing as how I already know all the ins and outs on that car. It would be cool to see what Jeremy would say about it but I'd rather see cars that I can't just go to my local dealer and look at.