FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Vaxxtx]

It would be cool if they did this but I always assumed it was because neither game is affiliated witha racing series.

Shift2 was. FIA GT3 and GT1. They didnt do it.

But beyond that, I didnt think you needed to be affiliated to implement real world race rules. They are all pretty similar in the basics, from GT1 to BTCC, no?

Kinda makes sense, actually. No qualifying or basic rules are still a bummer though.

Just think if they had qualifying, qualifying race, chamopionship race, and total point based. Basic flag system, along with drive through, and grid penalties. I would love that in a career, and also online.

I am just curious as to why GT or FM have even attempted it. If it was options that could turned off its not like they would be ignoring the more casual folks, but might actually get more people interested in the sim race abilities and not thinking every console game is NFS Underground on a track.

Dunno...just thinking out loud.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Kinda makes sense, actually. No qualifying or basic rules are still a bummer though.

It's a huge bummer. They should take some notes from Race Pro 09 at least. While they are there, and basic in use, Race Pro 09 does make it worthwhile to use.

 

[amar212]

TOCA series could be example for the whole genre, even from the '96 and initial game.

Basic rules and execution of touring racing of Race Driver 3 in non-licensed GT class is the premium example. However, it probably have to do with making both big series accessible because I can see how both qualification, heavy damages and strict penalties would just scare Everyday Bobs.

On the other hand, both Forza and GT have built-in coding for shortcuting, collision detection, mechanical damage implementation and time-sequence monitoring. Why they do not include some *advanced* options for players that play both games longer than Next Popular Sequel 3 hits the shelves is really beyond my comprehension.

However, TOCA series and especially Race Driver 3 with RacePro remains the ultimate *ruled racing* games on consoles.

 

[430_Riviera]

Do Fanatec allow users to open up their wheels and go ferreting about inside without voiding the warranty?

Anyway, sorry for off topic, could be that rules and flags implemented across such enormous scope what with the sheer size of games such as GT5 and FM3/4, would require a rewriting of the games and as such would make it very difficult to simply turn on or off in the options menu. For example, seen as Forza's tracks are modelled with 'sticky grass', it would be impossible to implement a flag based corner cutting penalty as essentially you are already being punished for cutting in the first place.

I think qualifying would also mess with the PI system. Cars ordered by PI with no regard for driver ability means that generally it's a mixed bag regarding the start and who comes out on top. On-line, qualifying would simply meter the cars out into their respective positions with regard to driver ability. You would have a start, maybe a first corner shuffle/accident then the cars would settle into a snake with everyone in the positions they started in for the most part. It would be pretty boring. At least with the way it is done now, the quicker guys usually have to come through the field.

Qualifying is also made interesting by random events... Red flags cutting time from sessions, mechanical issues, sudden changing track/weather conditions, slow or inattentive traffic getting in the way, tire handling/conservation (look at recent F1 qualifying sessions). Without these qualifying is just another race before a race, and that is extremely difficult to model succesfully.

 

[HBK]

I am just curious as to why GT or FM have even attempted it.

Same here.

I don't really get why. I just can't seem to find a reasonable explanation. No trivial technical limitation. No reason to freak out the casuals as it can very much be optional. Makes little sense really. I can only guess it's just a matter of priorities. They just don't give a damn. Well, at least not enough to actually implement such things.

 

[Vaxxtx]

Do Fanatec allow users to open up their wheels and go ferreting about inside without voiding the warranty?

Anyway, sorry for off topic, could be that rules and flags implemented across such enormous scope what with the sheer size of games such as GT5 and FM3/4, would require a rewriting of the games and as such would make it very difficult to simply turn on or off in the options menu. For example, seen as Forza's tracks are modelled with 'sticky grass', it would be impossible to implement a flag based corner cutting penalty as essentially you are already being punished for cutting in the first place.

I think qualifying would also mess with the PI system. Cars ordered by PI with no regard for driver ability means that generally it's a mixed bag regarding the start and who comes out on top. On-line, qualifying would simply meter the cars out into their respective positions with regard to driver ability. You would have a start, maybe a first corner shuffle/accident then the cars would settle into a snake with everyone in the positions they started in for the most part. It would be pretty boring. At least with the way it is done now, the quicker guys usually have to come through the field.

Qualifying is also made interesting by random events... Red flags cutting time from sessions, mechanical issues, sudden changing track/weather conditions, slow or inattentive traffic getting in the way, tire handling/conservation (look at recent F1 qualifying sessions). Without these qualifying is just another race before a race, and that is extremely difficult to model succesfully.

F1 2011 did it just fine. They also have it as an option. Offline or online with 24 cars. Not sure the scope you mean. But then again I dont program.

I am not sure what you mean by the second bolded statment. Thats kind of what qualifying is.

I am guessing a car enthusist game is more what FM and GT is, not so much a racing game.

 

[BusierDonkey]

Total entertainment while it lasted. Mitch you cracked me up. You are a pressure cooker.

Ok back on topic. One thing I can say both GT and FM do bad is make a racing game. I am talking about a proper race, with rules, flags, quali laps, grid penalties.

I still dont get why F1 and to some extent Race Pro can do them right, yet 2 big name flagship car titles cant seem to implement that. Is it really hard for that system? F1 2011 did it very well, with a saftey car even.

My one big gripe about both.

I think it has alot to do with where GT and FM series set thier sights. Dan from T10 has stated numerous times that his goal with FM is to be a sim built around the cars, but not be overly complicated. The more features you add to the game, the more complicated it get. A new player comes in from a past of Mario Kart being his only racing and all that stuff is just too much. Right there they failed on thier goal. We do get alot of great new features, and the physics of the cars themselves continues to become more realistic, but my sister can still play the game, and so can my 8 year old cousin. The idea tha I can take a Viper ACR which will drive like the real car, and use it to smack around a soccer ball in the same game I just ran a serious race in is just awesome.

I'm sure the devs at PD look at GT in much the same way. Try to make a game that's engaging and fun to play, but build that on the back of a great physics engine and feature cars that were clearly crafted with great care and detail. It's been clear right from GT1 that the series is meant to recreate what it would be like to run through a racing career. You start out with little crap piles and work your way through the classes until you find yourself in real race cars. It's like a condensed dream lifestyle for people that love cars.

I am a huge car nut, but I honestly don't want to see FM and GT turn into al-out simulators. For my own personal use, in the group I race with, we race with an honor system, we don't cut tracks in a serious race, if we knock a guy off the track attempting a hero pass, we stop and let that guy move on before we get back into the race. For us the flags would be redundant. These are games, meant to be fun. Competiton is alot of fun, but at a certain point I might as well be at work if we have a long list of rules implemented into the games.

I think PC based sims should remain on a different plane than FM and GT.

I also hope someday these GT vs FM threads become GT and FM threads. Each game has so many things that have improved the genre and everytime one improves, the other has to follow suit, in the end us gamers benefit tremendously, even if we only have access to one of them (I understand not everyone is fortunate enough to own every system or buy any game they wnat). People that refuse to play one or the other are only depriving themselves of a great gaming experience.

 

[MoGoSpeed]

^GREAT perspective. 👍

 

[Vaxxtx]

I think it has alot to do with where GT and FM series set thier sights. Dan from T10 has stated numerous times that his goal with FM is to be a sim built around the cars, but not be overly complicated. The more features you add to the game, the more complicated it get. A new player comes in from a past of Mario Kart being his only racing and all that stuff is just too much. Right there they failed on thier goal. We do get alot of great new features, and the physics of the cars themselves continues to become more realistic, but my sister can still play the game, and so can my 8 year old cousin. The idea tha I can take a Viper ACR which will drive like the real car, and use it to smack around a soccer ball in the same game I just ran a serious race in is just awesome.

I'm sure the devs at PD look at GT in much the same way. Try to make a game that's engaging and fun to play, but build that on the back of a great physics engine and feature cars that were clearly crafted with great care and detail. It's been clear right from GT1 that the series is meant to recreate what it would be like to run through a racing career. You start out with little crap piles and work your way through the classes until you find yourself in real race cars. It's like a condensed dream lifestyle for people that love cars.

I am a huge car nut, but I honestly don't want to see FM and GT turn into al-out simulators. For my own personal use, in the group I race with, we race with an honor system, we don't cut tracks in a serious race, if we knock a guy off the track attempting a hero pass, we stop and let that guy move on before we get back into the race. For us the flags would be redundant. These are games, meant to be fun. Competiton is alot of fun, but at a certain point I might as well be at work if we have a long list of rules implemented into the games.

I think PC based sims should remain on a different plane than FM and GT.

I also hope someday these GT vs FM threads become GT and FM threads. Each game has so many things that have improved the genre and everytime one improves, the other has to follow suit, in the end us gamers benefit tremendously, even if we only have access to one of them (I understand not everyone is fortunate enough to own every system or buy any game they wnat). People that refuse to play one or the other are only depriving themselves of a great gaming experience.

I agree, great way to look at at it. I agree with most of what you said.

But when you talk about your sister or 8 year old cousin playing bowling in the same car you used for a serious race, I tend to think the same could be said for proper racing rules vs. casual rules. Turn on the rules and flags for race tourney's and turn them off for a casual race.

Mind you I also was in a League on the PS3 for Shift 2. We did use the honor system, just like you, no track cutting, hit someone slow down for the pass, clean driving etc. It does work well, but it would be really neat to not have to do all that. It would be cool to cut too many corners and be ordered to make a drive through, or get bumped on the grid.

I also wouldnt mind to see a more simulation type game come out for the consoles. The hardware for such a sim seems to be almost capable on the consoles now.

I dont know, I guess I have been watching the 2011 FIA GT1 and Supercars V8 races lately and just wish you could fire up the console and play.

So in short. Take F1 rules, apply them to FM, have an on/off switch to use them, or not. Could see everyone happy.

 

[HBK]

Well, one thing's for sure, despite having great physics engines, those two games are still built around the "arcade" foundations, the "pick-up and play" philosophy. And that's how they manage to sell very well. At their core, they're still "fun racing games", where everything, every mistake is of little consequence.

I think that's why they don't want to implement complex rules. They (PD/T10) think they would lose many customers if they abandoned the "3, 2, 1, GO!" paradigm, even as an option. I think amar wrote a great insight about that a while ago. Average Joe wants maximum realism as he thinks of him as is Awesome Joe, and therefore puts all the sliders to the max. But thing is he isn't Awesome Joe, and so dismisses the game if said game doesn't manage to make him feel like Awsome Joe. So you'll probably never see many uber-realism options in those two big selling games, or to put it in Layman' terms, any option that may be introduced will have carefully be identified as being of "common knowledge" enough for any player to consider it "acceptable".

Edit : Also, even is adding such options is not a big deal in terms of technical limitations, it still represents quite an amount of work, so it's unlikely this work would be done if it's only going to appeal to a very limited amount of customers.

 

[JJ72]

I agree too, when you are in a fantasy setting racing stock street cars against each other, realitis racing rule doesn't seem to be really important.

The important thing is you still have that option online for serious competition, and it does.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Personally I think these sims will turn more hardcore over the next few releases but still also have options for casuals. They also will evolve to be better than quite a lot of the PC sims within this decade.

 

[JacoJa]

So... A n00b question from me. If I buy a G27, will it be compatible with both Forza 4 and GT5?

I'm no fanboy, but I've never really liked Forza. The graphics look too plasticy, the driving physics feel odd, and it just feels as though it was created without any sort of passion from Turn10.

Forza 4 is looking extremely good though. Everything I've disliked about the previous games seems to have been fixed, and it looks like they've executed a lot of things which Polyphony left unfinished in GT5. I'm definitely interested in buying FM4, but will first need to buy an Xbox.

 

[erahk64]

So... A n00b question from me. If I buy a G27, will it be compatible with both Forza 4 and GT5?

The G27 doesn't work on XBOX360.

The Porsche 911 GT2 wheel, CSR wheel and CSR Elite wheel
from Fanatec works on PS3 and XBOX360.

www.fanatec.com

 

[Parker]

So... A n00b question from me. If I buy a G27, will it be compatible with both Forza 4 and GT5?

I'm no fanboy, but I've never really liked Forza. The graphics look too plasticy, the driving physics feel odd, and it just feels as though it was created without any sort of passion from Turn10.

Forza 4 is looking extremely good though. Everything I've disliked about the previous games seems to have been fixed, and it looks like they've executed a lot of things which Polyphony left unfinished in GT5. I'm definitely interested in buying FM4, but will first need to buy an Xbox.

No sir, the Logitech G-series wheels are not compatible with the 360. You'll want to source a Fanatec for your 360 driving needs.

I'm a huge fan of both games but I agree with some of your points as well. I'm not a huge graphics guy, but I agree that the graphics on Forza look a little strange, almost cartoony to me. Again, not a big deal but something I notice every now and again. I think the driving physics feel really good though, apart from a few flaws. Overall I feel GT5 has a better physics engine, but Forza certainly has a good physics engine as well, in my opinion of course. I also agree with the passion thing. GT feels more soulful and more than just a game, whereas Forza feels like it's just there. Maybe it's because GT has more history than Forza, but regardless having more "soul" certainly doesn't make one game better than the other.

I think you won't be disappointed if you pick up a 360. I bought mine solely for the Forza series and have stumbled upon a few more great games as well. Race Pro is a great 360 exclusive, as well as Indy 500 Evolution (well, not great, but fun) and the other obvious exclusives. All my multiplatform games I buy for my PS3 and I really only play a few 360 exclusive games, but I still think the 360 is a wonderful system worth the money. I do think Live! is extremely overrated and my experience with it shows me that it is in no way, shape or form better than PSN but your experience may vary.

I've always liked Gran Turismo more than Forza, but FM4 looks like it will take my attention away from GT5 for quite some time. It's really shaping up to be a fantastic game and if I didn't have a 360 I'd gladly pay the price of admission to be able to play the Forza series.


Parker

 

[JacoJa]

Ahh! Thanks guys. Not quite the answer I was hoping for, but I’ll still look into buying an additional wheel for both consoles nevertheless. I currently own a DFGT, and I knew that wasn’t compatible... so I just must have forgotten that the G27 is also made be Logitech.

@ peobryant: I agree with your words on the differences between GT5 and Forza. It’s a bit difficult to put your finger on the ‘soul’ thing for a game. I really feel it for the GT series (though more with GT1-3), more than I have for any other racing game I’ve played. 360’s are beginning to become really affordable now. Even if I cannot get a racing wheel, I’m sure I’ll also enjoy Forza just as much with a controller. I have never played GT2 with a racing wheel, and yet it’s still my favourite racing game of all time.

As for driving physics... My opinion may not be completely worthy, as I’ve only ever played forza games with a controller in shopping centres. So you’re probably right to claim that Forza physics seem pretty realistic.

You’ve also reminded me of Race Pro. I own a 'Race' game on my computer, and I enjoyed it thoroughly. The only problem was my PC, which kept blue-screening half way through every race. So I think I’d be happy to own just those two games for an Xbox.

Not to mention, Forza 4 has ‘premium’ models of the Current Ford Fiesta, and a 7th Generation Toyota Celica. Just like the one I sold a couple of weeks ago... *sob*

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

My take opinion on things.

But first

also (FM4 physics are still a mystery to me) although i liked the physics in F3

will be purchasing a elite along with F4, gonna play the hell out of it, and just switch it between GT5 and forza4 just like i did with forza 1-2 and Gt4. same thing different year, Bring it on T10.

I'll mostly be doing painting(replicas) in F4, that's all i did in F1, but i will still finish out the seasons and championships and all that good stuff, (will probably end of purchasing a 911 pure..)

If i want to have fun on forza ill just pick up the controler and drive, But GT will still be my prime racing game, due to the fact of my G25.

But i guess when comparing the 2 games, each does things extremely different.

forza4 car list is smaller, but trumps the GT5 1000+ list although i am a standard lover.
intern GT5 trumps forza 4 gameplay due to the fact that you don't just have to race on a "dry" course, you can race on dirt, snow,wet tarmac, rain soaked tarmac, and the physics engine is impressive on either one (Give or take dirt physics which are a hit or miss, but they are there, And light years ahead of GT4 dirt physics, I especially like the ice and fresh snow physics.
Forza4 trumps GT5 on customization and livery(is just always amazing) many different styles you can create with the cars, many replicas...things i absolutely adore in games.
But again GT5 does other things that trump forza 4, like the aforementioned weather conditions and actual day to night mode, or set night mode SS5-7, Alot of little details like dynamic tire smoke, rain spray, dirt dust and rooster tails that interacts with different light sources, and shadows from trees and cars and other obstacles,Different headlight models for cars, HID, standard halogen etc, and how they vary from actual light output, how doing burnouts and drifting actually affects the heat on your tires when they smolder for a bit, and the list goes on.

In a technical aspect, GT5 trumps Forza, imo, it does more actual things concerning actual gameplay, I mean if you want to drive a Ferrari 458 italia at night around the ring in the rain you can do that, it's just nice to know their are different conditions that will affect your driving, one minute dry...some minutes later light rain, medium pour then heavy rain, and your still using sports hards and you feel the car try to adapt with the changing environmental conditions, GT actually just goes way farther then Forza(so far) in-terms of core play gameplay and situations

But as an overall car experience, (car life style) i would choose F4
As an overall racer and having a good time actually driving cars in different conditions i would choose GT5.

 

[KreepaEvox]

GT5 Spec II tweeted.... Gentlemen, We Have A Fight

First time they will lauch at the same time.....if, and it's a big if, Kaz can release it on time and it's not a ..............................In Japan.... Oh Kaz's word play

 

[Jamezinho]

GT5 Spec II tweeted.... Gentlemen, We Have A Fight

First time they will lauch at the same time.....if, and it's a big if, Kaz can release it on time and it's not a ..............................In Japan.... Oh Kaz's word play

It would be nice to know what the DLC is going to be and how much it's going to cost? (or is it free?)

Kaz likes to be secretive though so I didn't expect anything more.

It's a poorly timed update though. I'll be deep into Forza 4 by that time so the update and DLC will have to be something very special to tear me away.

 

[barryl85]

GT5 Spec II tweeted.... Gentlemen, We Have A Fight

First time they will lauch at the same time.....if, and it's a big if, Kaz can release it on time and it's not a ..............................In Japan.... Oh Kaz's word play

Yip the DLC launching almost a year after release - WOW

Not to mention the deliberate date of the DLC release, my my how the tables have turned, looks like the underdog is no more and PD are threatened by Forza's market position.

 

[Spagetti69]

Yip the DLC launching almost a year after release - WOW

Not to mention the deliberate date of the DLC release, my my how the tables have turned, looks like the underdog is no more and PD are threatened by Forza's market position.

What are you trying to say......
Kaz has said he doesn't watch the opposition it's just a coincidence.

And Kaz said he doesn't believe in DL....... Hang on a minute.

Don't care. Own both consoles so bring it on. Competition brings out the best in people.

 

[barryl85]

What are you trying to say......
Kaz has said he doesn't watch the opposition it's just a coincidence.

And Kaz said he doesn't believe in DL....... Hang on a minute.

Don't care. Own both consoles so bring it on. Competition brings out the best in people.

Ha ha - never even thought of that!

And I agree, I have both too but GT5 will continue to collect dust unfortunately until I am ready to put Forza 4 down !

 

[Luminis]

Hey, it's just been a year, that's not much by PD standards, is it?

Just kidding. However, it is indeed interesting that the developer that supposedly doesn't care about the competition coincidently announces the first DLC about two weeks prior to the competion's launch. I agree with Spagetti there.

Should be interesting to see what PD got in store, though. They should've had enough time to prepare something awesome.

 

[HBK]

It's actually amazing how much I agree with everything you say Luminis

Back on topic :

I tend to think that GT5 still have some kind of edge in the photomode department. I dunno, kinda the overall feel of the pictures still feels more realistic in GT5. But Forza is no longer lagging behind. Not. At. All.

Some FM4 photomode shots truly look amazing.

 

[Spagetti69]

Wow the GT boards have gone into overload. Just like prior to release.

Really hope it's something special.
Speculation is going through the roof with hopes of all standards going premium. Extra A&Bspec events. New cars.

I haven't played GT from around patch 7 or 8. Do I have to download them all in order or does the latest one deal with it all.

I'm thinking a 24 hr download here. 8^(

 

[VXR]

That 107 picture would look more realistic with less shutter speed.

 

[HBK]

Homespace shots tend to look much better than race/replay ones, or so it seems.

Which is kinda logical, I think.

 

[Luminis]

Homespace shots tend to look much better than race/replay ones, or so it seems.

Agreed. Seems like FM4's version of the Photo Travel mode.

That said, I also agree (said so earlier, i think): GT5 still has that little extra edge, when it comes to pictures.

Wow the GT boards have gone into overload. Just like prior to release.

Which is understandable, imho. After such a long time without any major DLC, not releasing something big would probably just backfire. Badly.

 

[JJ72]

hm....I am actually a bit angry they annouce it out of nowhere (and again with one single line of tweet? and just as vague as before? come on), now I've sold my PS3 not expecting anything big to come out for GT5 as it has been so long. :/

 

[HBK]

Hopefully Spec II will bring up lots of nice features/improvements. But right now it really seems like some kind of last minute attempt to counter FM4's launch.

Edit :

That said, I also agree (said so earlier, i think): GT5 still has that little extra edge, when it comes to pictures.

Yup. Even if it's not quite up to par on some aspects, I'm very happy with what we're seeing of FM4 thus far. It looks way more realistic than FM3. Love it <3