FM2 Nurburgring
- Thread starter SouL
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McLaren
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- Texas
And like Scaff and TheCracker said, this is a discussion about the track in Forza 2, so there will be some complaints.
Why is it in every kind of thread like this on the web, the general excuse is, "Well, if you don't like it, don't play it, wah wah wah"?
How about this, if you don't like where the thread is going, or our comments, don't reply to them.
Not directing this at you nitro, but I find the excuse can easily be used on the sayers, themselves.
- 1,914
Have you guys even considered that maybe, just maybe, they altered it because it might just make it that little bit easier for first time players to enjoy the 'Ring and have a good time on it. That people who have hated the 'Ring before can now start to like it that little bit more. That maybe it would make driving on the 'Ring for novices and people who aren't very good at driving it less arduous and difficult. Didn't think so.
From what I'm hearing, it sounds like most of the people are just a bit too critical. That you guys seem to seek perfection or near perfection in terms of realism. Well, sometimes it's fun to be a bit unrealistic sometimes. You guys have been setting sub-6-minute times around the 'Ring in GT4, even 1 or 2 with sub-5-minutes. And have you complained about that once? Not to my knowledge. I'm sorry if you disagree with my views, but I'm just putting in my 2 cents into this debate as it's now sort of become.
From what I'm hearing, it sounds like most of the people are just a bit too critical. That you guys seem to seek perfection or near perfection in terms of realism. Well, sometimes it's fun to be a bit unrealistic sometimes. You guys have been setting sub-6-minute times around the 'Ring in GT4, even 1 or 2 with sub-5-minutes. And have you complained about that once? Not to my knowledge. I'm sorry if you disagree with my views, but I'm just putting in my 2 cents into this debate as it's now sort of become.
- 323
So Turn 10 widened it for Live play. Better that than the course being so tight any sort of fair play is nigh-on impossible due to people ramming you off track.
It's just a game and no game will get it spot on. I find GT's representation too tame, because the car handling is duller than dull.
It's just a game and no game will get it spot on. I find GT's representation too tame, because the car handling is duller than dull.
KSaiyu
(Banned)
- 2,822
Nitro_2005
Sorry, but that logic would really suck for a future of racing games. Where would it end? Eau Rouge flat every car; Istanbul's first corner smooth and at the same elevation; Paddock Hill with no blindness?
The racing line is there for novices, if you're still bad at the track using that - practise for Christ sake!
- 29,916
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
Then why make the Ring, the Ring with without the any of the corners of the Ring, isn't the Ring. If they want a track that's easy, why not amke a scratch built track that no one can complain about rather than butcher the Ring. You can bitch and moan about people bitching and moaning all you want, as I said I will still enjoy FM2 a lot. But what they have done with the Ring is pathetic. As for lap times being complained about in GT4, I've seen a hell of a lot of them, they wern't directed at the track, because the track was the best version out there by far (not couting EPR's which is very close).
The bottom line is that the Ring in Forza is a poor excuse of a recreation, the Ring in GT4 and EPR isn't. If Turn 10 are so insistent that they want to make it easier for new racers, online races or whatever, then simply put, don't bother with the Ring. Make a track of similar lenth, but make your own up and save the licensing. Because when I see the Ring in a game, that's what I want to drive, not the Ring twice as wide and twice as easy.
McLaren
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Ok, so you're telling me a simulation (Simulates what should happen in real life) along with the enthusiasts, should sacrifice the accuracy of a real world raceway just so some people will stop hating it that will cause the track to falsely simulate the real world actions of the vehicles?
I say tough noodles to them. Simulators are not made to be easy. They are made to accurately represent the real world. Say I hate racing Mugello. Should it thousands of its fans be turned away just for me to race it in an easier manner? Say there's a track you love to drive the way it is in real life, but I can not stand it. Should your track be made easier, and inaccurately for my enjoyment while you have to play something else to find the joy in it?
Is not what a simulator does? Seek perfection?
But simulators are not made to be unrealistic. If something is difficult in real life, a true simulator is not made to give in to folks and make it easier. It makes folks who will one day go to the course have a bad mis-interpretation of the track.
Some of us have. And that's due to there being no fear. That's basic on more of the game's physics. A track can accurately be laid out, but it will depend heavily upon physics if it can be run fast. And btw, 90% of GT4's players do not hit the highest times that we've seen here at GTP. I don't even come close, and I'm sure there are others who don't either.
McLaren
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And? I'm sorry you run into little turds online, but that doesn't mean the rest of us should sacrifice the track. Turn 10 could have easily made the track for Live! without completely butchering it. Make it a bit wider in certain spots, if that's what it takes, but don't make it unchallenging.
Again, that's physics. Not layout. It may be tame, but at least it's real enough.
BTW, a lot of games have gotten spot on.
- 1,382
- New Jersey
Why do you guys have to point out one fault out of a great game that you all love and stuff. Sure the ring mabey poorly made but who cares, dont use it. Just race on the many other tracks that they graciously made us. This is a awesome game so just enjoy it and if there are any parts you dont like dont rat on turn 10 because this is a great game they made and 1 track isnt going to ruin it.
- 1,914
agreed 👍Why do you guys have to point out one fault out of a great game that you all love and stuff. Sure the ring mabey poorly made but who cares, dont use it. Just race on the many other tracks that they graciously made us. This is a awesome game so just enjoy it and if there are any parts you dont like dont rat on turn 10 because this is a great game they made and 1 track isnt going to ruin it.
McLaren
Premium
- 44,475
- Texas
Why do you guys have to point out one fault out of a great game that you all love and stuff. Sure the ring mabey poorly made but who cares, dont use it. Just race on the many other tracks that they graciously made us. This is a awesome game so just enjoy it and if there are any parts you dont like dont rat on turn 10 because this is a great game they made and 1 track isnt going to ruin it.
You do realize that games get better when there is criticism. And FM2's needs a lot for Turn10 to do it right.
Besides, if you don't like our discussion, don't join in. See, I can easily use that stupid excuse against you, but it won't stop you because this is a discussion of the 'Ring.
- 1,914
Why do you have to get so serious and nitpicky OVER A GOD DAMN GAME?!?!?!?!?
McLaren
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If you don't like the discussion, leave.
Because right now, you're not adding anything helpful with responses like that.
- 29,916
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
Believe me, Forza 2 has many more flaws, and believe me, people picked up on GT4's shortcomings as well. If you don't believe that then you have tinted glasses on. What is the point in a discussion that goes...Why do you guys have to point out one fault out of a great game that you all love and stuff. Sure the ring mabey poorly made but who cares, dont use it. Just race on the many other tracks that they graciously made us. This is a awesome game so just enjoy it and if there are any parts you dont like dont rat on turn 10 because this is a great game they made and 1 track isnt going to ruin it.
"This games great"
"Yeah, I know"
"I agree"
"So do I"
"You know what, this games great"
This is a message board, people will criticise, people will praise, people will say what they mean. Without criticism things do not improve, or rather they do improve but at a sedate pace. Forza 2 has already had heaps of praise lavished on it in this very forum, but now one single aspect, and it's a pretty damn big aspect that should be picked for criticism, has reared it's head your up in arms about it. It makes no sense.
It's you that seems to be having the problem here.
Almost everyone else is perfectly content to discuss the situtation while you seem personally offended that people arn't happy that the reacreation of the Ring in a sim isn't just off the mark, it's walking in the opposite direction. It's not like there's small mistakes but the overall feel of the track is the same, they've changed the complete nature of the Ring. And you haven't answered my point earlier yet, you just keep moaning that people are moaning.
Same reasons here. I just got the game, took the Fous SVT on a free run at the ring. Did 3 laps, and found alot of "mistakes". Surface to smooth which takes away alot of the challenge, and most corners are no challenge. So disapointed that I needed a break and go to Gtplanet and complain, but thread already started
- 6,769
- Little Elm, TX
- JCE3000GT
Yes, I read the topic title and descided to post. This is after a forum where I am allowed to post my opinions and comments.
I can accept the fact that the 'ring is important to some people, I just feel that they are making it the only reason for racing games to even exsist. And I feel that is just short-sided. I like the 'ring and all, but there are other tracks I can race that are more fun.
Check your PM.
Again, I'm allowed to post in here if I disagree aren't I? A topic where 100% of the posters agree with each other is a pointless topic. A forum is and was designed for discussion.
That happens on this forum all the time.
Dude, give up. We are alone in our opinion, and last time I checked going 1 VS everybody or 2 VS everybody usually ends up in the smaller side losing due to the overwhelming opposition almost everytime. Its like bringing a hunting crossbow to Iraq and expecting to partisipate equally with the combatants. You may have a great weapon, but you won't even get the first step off the plane before you get shot in the face.
- 29,916
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
Yet you still haven't countered several points, a common thing for people on that fast losing side of a debate.
It's like someone saying X is better than Y, someone else asking why, the reply is simply beause it is. They ask why again, they get the same response. That's why your losing this, beause you keep saying the same thing over and over. People have made points to counter what your saying but your not adjusting what your responses. Your simply repeating yourselves and seemingly ignoring thoes counter arguments.
Once again, why should a simulation feature a vastly incorrect version of a track? Key word here, simulation.
The game already features a progression system where you start off in easy to control cars on easier tracks and your supposed to work through the game and build up your skill as you get onto more complex tracks. If people have no desire to learn to do better and to conquer these tracks, : what are they doing playing a sim in the first place and b: why should the people that do want to play a sim have to be the ones to pay for that?
Thirdly, if Turn 10 have no desire to recreate the Ring for what it is and not represent the challenge is holds, then why actually bother licensing and recreating the Ring in the first place instead of saving the license fee and making a scratch built track just how they want it?
It's like someone saying X is better than Y, someone else asking why, the reply is simply beause it is. They ask why again, they get the same response. That's why your losing this, beause you keep saying the same thing over and over. People have made points to counter what your saying but your not adjusting what your responses. Your simply repeating yourselves and seemingly ignoring thoes counter arguments.
Once again, why should a simulation feature a vastly incorrect version of a track? Key word here, simulation.
The game already features a progression system where you start off in easy to control cars on easier tracks and your supposed to work through the game and build up your skill as you get onto more complex tracks. If people have no desire to learn to do better and to conquer these tracks, : what are they doing playing a sim in the first place and b: why should the people that do want to play a sim have to be the ones to pay for that?
Thirdly, if Turn 10 have no desire to recreate the Ring for what it is and not represent the challenge is holds, then why actually bother licensing and recreating the Ring in the first place instead of saving the license fee and making a scratch built track just how they want it?
Joey D
Premium
- 46,710
- Boyne Falls, MI
- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
Some of us just quit caring about some of the points and address the ones we see fit to.
I'm glad there are at least two people that have been to the Ring and driven it. There comments actually mean something unlike the other 98% of the people who haven't. I'm all for criticizing something in a game, but at least have real life experience with it. But I have better things to do then argue about if a track is slightly off...like actually play and thus reap the entertainment value out of it instead of being so fussy and thus losing the enjoyment.
I'm glad there are at least two people that have been to the Ring and driven it. There comments actually mean something unlike the other 98% of the people who haven't. I'm all for criticizing something in a game, but at least have real life experience with it. But I have better things to do then argue about if a track is slightly off...like actually play and thus reap the entertainment value out of it instead of being so fussy and thus losing the enjoyment.
- 17,865
- 509
Guys that keep telling those of us that have qualms to quite whining and not play it - What do you have to gain from saying this? Those of us discussing it are explaining why we have problems with it, where at, and so on. We are discussing it.
You all are just popping in and going "Well, BOOHOO for you. Just don't play it." Would you like it if you bought a car, and you complained about the steering not feeling right? Or the CD player being utter crap? If you have such a problem with us complaining about, why don't you just leave? You aren't getting anything from this, unless you are turning into a FM 2 fanboy and must defend it at any cost.
In regard to lap times, I think it has become agreed upon that R5 race tires in GT4 are impossibly grippy. This gives insanely fast laptimes.
And about going to MS and such to complain, perhaps we are coming to an agreement on what is actually wrong with the track, rather than saying "The Ring sucks in FM2, fix it - Love Guy that Loves Nurb."
JCE and Nitro, you guys are being aggressive and are simply trying to bring up the same issue over and over, when others have already stated why. McLaren has been making valid points this whole time, and maintained his composure. So calm down perhaps?
You all are just popping in and going "Well, BOOHOO for you. Just don't play it." Would you like it if you bought a car, and you complained about the steering not feeling right? Or the CD player being utter crap? If you have such a problem with us complaining about, why don't you just leave? You aren't getting anything from this, unless you are turning into a FM 2 fanboy and must defend it at any cost.
In regard to lap times, I think it has become agreed upon that R5 race tires in GT4 are impossibly grippy. This gives insanely fast laptimes.
And about going to MS and such to complain, perhaps we are coming to an agreement on what is actually wrong with the track, rather than saying "The Ring sucks in FM2, fix it - Love Guy that Loves Nurb."
JCE and Nitro, you guys are being aggressive and are simply trying to bring up the same issue over and over, when others have already stated why. McLaren has been making valid points this whole time, and maintained his composure. So calm down perhaps?
- 303
Same reasons here. I just got the game, took the Fous SVT on a free run at the ring. Did 3 laps, and found alot of "mistakes". Surface to smooth which takes away alot of the challenge, and most corners are no challenge. So disapointed that I needed a break and go to Gtplanet and complain, but thread already started
It's frustrating, isn't it?
When I watch that radical 'ring lap record vid I can IMMEDIATELY identify the similarities between the real track and what GT4 has. At the same time I can identify the many differences between the real track and what Forza has in their game.
Is there a gamertag thread?
mine is insertaliashere
posted #51 on the scoreboard for the 'ring with the MC12
I've now played Forza 2 some more on other tracks and they seem very well done. The physics are good and the cars I've driven has their own character. Lot's of fun, but ; 
It's just the Nurburgring seems like it's done half-hearted (you say that in english?). It's like it's there just there for the sales pitch. I rember watching the video of the game producer (Dan) going on about the bumby Sebring track where he said he was glad the track was included, so they could show off the excellent physics engine etc. Now I know why he doesn't mentioned anything about the Ring except for making it look like summer to live up to the name the Green Hell, while in Forza 1 it was autum I belive.
I think we how haven't had the joy of driving the Ring for real are allowed to complain or say our opinion. We can compare to say GT4 or Enthusia, and there are alot of videos and info about the Ring that gives you impressions. It's not difficult to see that the track is off in Forza. There are alot of key turns at the Ring that makes or breaks your lap time, and some key turns is what makes the Ring a challenge. Without them it's not the Nurburgring. Again compared to GT4, Enthusia and videos
Imagine dumbing down the Corksrew at Laguna Seca?
Good to see you in a thread again Scaff. I miss your discussions in the Enthusia forums with the other guys
Cheers
It's just the Nurburgring seems like it's done half-hearted (you say that in english?). It's like it's there just there for the sales pitch. I rember watching the video of the game producer (Dan) going on about the bumby Sebring track where he said he was glad the track was included, so they could show off the excellent physics engine etc. Now I know why he doesn't mentioned anything about the Ring
except for making it look like summer to live up to the name the Green Hell, while in Forza 1 it was autum I belive.I think we how haven't had the joy of driving the Ring for real are allowed to complain or say our opinion. We can compare to say GT4 or Enthusia, and there are alot of videos and info about the Ring that gives you impressions. It's not difficult to see that the track is off in Forza. There are alot of key turns at the Ring that makes or breaks your lap time, and some key turns is what makes the Ring a challenge. Without them it's not the Nurburgring. Again compared to GT4, Enthusia and videos
Imagine dumbing down the Corksrew at Laguna Seca?
Good to see you in a thread again Scaff. I miss your discussions in the Enthusia forums with the other guys
Cheers
McLaren
Premium
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- Texas
I'll make a final statement, and hopefully help you guys see where I am coming from.
Look, I completely agree FM2 is more than about the 'Ring. I'm not trying to argue it isn't. I just feel that, as someone who got to experience the real thing, the game dropped a bombshell on me for it. You know that feeling, right, when you find something so perfect, so fun, and enjoyable, that you realize, there's got to be something wrong with it?
For me, it's the game Nurburgring. I'm pretty fine with everything else. The game fits everything I've ever really loved into one, and to have 1 of my favorite tracks in the world be the one thing that had to be wrong with the game (to me) is a big blow.
When I started playing the game, I immediately tried to find what would be wrong with it because there's no way this game is this damn good. But as I played the game, I found it wasn't the sounds. It wasn't the physics. It wasn't the painting, or trading, or even the graphics. It wasn't even the car details (well, actually, I have a few nitpicks with some models, but that's only 2-3 cars) or tracks....But when I thought nothing was wrong, it ended up being the one track I wanted to run. The freakin' 'Ring. And much to my dismay, I found out that track was the downfall to me.
See, I find the 'Ring to be best place on earth to really get a thrill from a car. Any car. So, when FM2 allowed all these great modifications, I thought that would easily make my $60 worth it to run them on the 'Ring. It just isn't. There's too many flaws to ever enjoy it. Maybe if I had never run the real thing, I wouldn't be so disappointed. It's just kind of a spirit-breaker to find the greatest track (imo), completely turned into something it wasn't because I'll never know how my modified cars, or any other car in the game really feels to drive on the track. I plan to return to the 'Ring one day, in somethin much faster than a Mini, and I was only hoping FM2 could give me that shot for now. But it can't.
Please don't get the impression that I think Forza 2 is completely worthless because of 1 track. It's the total opposite. Every other feature will make up for it, esp. Sebring, Road Atlanta, and the Sunset Infield. It just sucks for me to sacrifice a real experience with the track to get something completely different. I know this all sounds cheesy, and such, but hey, I just wish to speak my mind, and hopefully get you 2 to see I do love this game. It's a fantastic game that has given me a world of fun to enjoy over the summer.
Never really gotten a point across clearly, but hoping you guys can read through this, and see what I'm saying.
Joey D
Premium
- 46,710
- Boyne Falls, MI
- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
If I personally had driven the Ring I would think all game sucked at recreating the experience. Once you've had the real thing a virtual world can not compare. I don't think I really have any other experience with this other then maybe comparing a real game of <insert sport> to the video game counter part.
I think I might be the same way when I get back from Germany in August and have experienced a ride around the Ring myself.
I think I might be the same way when I get back from Germany in August and have experienced a ride around the Ring myself.
- 297
- Mumbai, India
- Vype-R
- PferdeStarke
Okay, I know there's a serious discussion going on here. And probably my question will just be burried in the rubble of all the heated flame. But! I saw the thread heading and thought this'd be a good question to ask here.
I have driven Numerous Virtual Laps of the Ring' in different games. Right from GT4 (that being my first virtual drive of the ring), to Enthusia, PGR3, FM1, FM2 (Which btw, I did not find AS NARROW and FLAT, playing it on Live AS I did playing it offline). etc..
Now the question! :
I plan to goto the Ring once in my lift time (and that too soon). And because I may have only a few laps go, I want to do it good and fast (not insanely game speed fast, but still fast enough). So which game version of the Track should I keep in mind and drive, as all drive and feel a little different from each other. If I drive too fast keeping PGR / FM or FM2 version in my mind, will I end up dead, or badly injured or WORSE ... WRECKING THE CAR???
GT4 version Track, right?? - See, end of discussion. Next Topic Please!
(sorry for being an idiot, I just couldnt help but see the funny side of this discussion, please dont flame me)!
I have driven Numerous Virtual Laps of the Ring' in different games. Right from GT4 (that being my first virtual drive of the ring), to Enthusia, PGR3, FM1, FM2 (Which btw, I did not find AS NARROW and FLAT, playing it on Live AS I did playing it offline). etc..
Now the question! :
I plan to goto the Ring once in my lift time (and that too soon). And because I may have only a few laps go, I want to do it good and fast (not insanely game speed fast, but still fast enough). So which game version of the Track should I keep in mind and drive, as all drive and feel a little different from each other. If I drive too fast keeping PGR / FM or FM2 version in my mind, will I end up dead, or badly injured or WORSE ... WRECKING THE CAR???
GT4 version Track, right?? - See, end of discussion. Next Topic Please!
(sorry for being an idiot, I just couldnt help but see the funny side of this discussion, please dont flame me)!
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,038
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
I quite agree that having been to the 'ring no game or sim is a true substitute, however you could say exactly the same about driving. I'm yet to come across anything that comes close to recreating the real feel of a car on the limit, yet I still play driving and racing sims. The simple reason why is that I can't spend all my time in the car and I can't always go to a track or proving ground, so they are a handy simulation of it. What I can say from personal experience is that my time driving has made me very fussy as far as sims go and my trip to the 'ring has made me very fussy as far as its recreation in game that claim to be sims. After all if you claim its the 'ring and you claim to have made a sim then no excuse for trying your best to do that is valid (for me at least).
I can think of another good example; I was overjoyed when my local track (Castle Combe) was announced for TRD3, as I've visited the track many times, have numerous passenger laps around it and driven it a couple of times. So when TRD3 was released and I saw just how much they had sanitised a couple of the corners I was massively disappointed. Transfer that to FM and the 'ring and imagine how much more disappointed it made me, now imagine they had a second go and appear to have still dropped the ball. Maybe that will explain exactly why I don't feel they have an excuse for this.
Yes and no, while you certainly don't want to use it to learn how to drive a track, a good recreation of a track will at the every least allow you to know the basic layout and corner structure of a track. Its something that has been used by racers the world over, with perhaps Seb Loeb being the most well know example. He claims to have used GT4 to learn the layout of Le Mans prior to his first time racing at the track.
Regards
Scaff
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