Formula 1 Grand Prix du Canada 2011

[Hollidog]

Why's it any different? It's not like Vettel single handedly found Adrian Newey out in the country and told him to build a magical RB7, or was the one who designed the RB7 himself. There's a lot of luck in everything...this doesn't mean you should discount someones obvious talent (whether it's Vettel or Alonso) just because they have a bit of luck on their side (I'd say Vettel more than Alonso personally...as Alonso's had a much less given to him on a silver platter than Vettel...no pun intended).

Its different because the team that Button drove for in 09 wasnt even meant to exist. He got lucky in that RB decided to back the team and he won the Championship. Vettel won (the championship) in a team that arguably would have won the 09 championship had it not been for reliability issues (again subjective). Good example is '10 because look at Mercedes vs RBR. Merc were no where near the front and RB won it outright. I dont see much "luck" on the part of Vettel, granted he was given a good car by Newey, but Button wasnt even meant to race in that season. Luck.

I will say this though, the teams being good or making good strategys does not make a driver lucky in the way that I was meaning it. It isnt lucky the Vettel drives for RBR, but it is lucky for Alonso when Vettels plugs fail and he inherits the win.

belief is only belief though. doesnt make it one bit true though.
you can't go back in a season and say well if this guy had not done this he would have won that. doesnt work like that.

Button wasnt lucky at all. Brawn had developed that car for 18 months AND they found a loophole that gave them a huge advantage in the beginning of the season.

Luck? no.. excellence in designers and very hard work..

luck doesn't exist no matter how much you believe in it.

I dont think you can categorically deny the existance of luck, without getting into a huge debate.

What is it if, using a recent example, not sure if you watched it, but the grid draws for the second INDYcar race. Wade Cunningham managed to pick grid two out of 30. If thats not luck then what is? Predetermined destiny perhaps, but then is it not lucky that he got that predetermined destiny?

Button was lucky for the reasons mentioned above.

 

[The Outlaw]

I dont see much "luck" on the part of Vettel, granted he was given a good car by Newey, but Button wasnt even meant to race in that season. Luck.

So you mean to say that because of this, you can discount/disregard a drivers ability??? This is beyond flawed logic.

Its different because the team that Button drove for in 09 wasnt even meant to exist. He got lucky in that RB decided to back the team and he won the Championship. Vettel won (the championship) in a team that arguably would have won the 09 championship had it not been for reliability issues (again subjective). Good example is '10 because look at Mercedes vs RBR. Merc were no where near the front and RB won it outright. I dont see much "luck" on the part of Vettel, granted he was given a good car by Newey, but Button wasnt even meant to race in that season. Luck.

I will say this though, the teams being good or making good strategys does not make a driver lucky in the way that I was meaning it. It isnt lucky the Vettel drives for RBR, but it is lucky for Alonso when Vettels plugs fail and he inherits the win.

Why is there a difference though when it comes to judging a drivers talent? At the end of the day, both these things (having a superior car or winning due to someone else DNF'ing) are generally out of the drivers hands. Just because you get lucky (like Vettel getting a top car so early in his career) doesn't mean you aren't talented.

 

[Terronium-12]

again, one year, and the year where it did not went good for kimi. the ferrari was good so that's expected of him.

Sounds like an excuse to me. Webber's having an awful season thus far, yet I'm not going to chalk up Vettel's success (so far) because of it.

and you keep brining up one session.

If I recall, you're the one who came out of nowhere referencing a season from 1, 2, and 3 years ago.

how about taking a look at where he stacks up against hamilton in points or qualifying positions from 08.

How about I don't, and remain on the topic at hand: Canada?

im not out for massa, nor am i a fanboy like you who can't see things objectively.

I'm a Massa fanboy? That's sure as hell news to me.

the fact that you even compare him to the likes of alonso, hamilton, vettel or raikkonen says more about your knowledge then mine.

I'll say, considering the only person I've ever compared him to was Alonso...and if you recall did I or did I not say "Alonso may be the better driver"? I suppose you read right past, didn't you? Only person that brought up Vettel, Hamilton, or Raikkonen was you. I've never referenced either/any of them once in my original post about Massa.

 

[Hollidog]

So you mean to say that because of this, you can discount/disregard a drivers ability??? This is beyond flawed logic.



Why is there a difference though when it comes to judging a drivers talent? At the end of the day, both these things (having a superior car or winning due to someone else DNF'ing) are generally out of the drivers hands. Just because you get lucky (like Vettel getting a top so early in his career) doesn't mean you aren't talented.

Vettel got into a top team the same way that Hamilton did, he proved himself in the junior formulas. Both drivers had similar first two (full) seasons. In that they both came to a top team, and won the championship with that team. I dont think that is luck. I dont agree that is is out of his hands, he made his own way to that team, just as Hamilton did.

I never said that one driver was better than another, (in fact I intentionally left it out because it is subjective, and I still am not saying it) all I said was that some of Alonsos race wins boiled down to simple luck. It was out of both of their hands when Vettels plugs failed. Bad luck Vettel, good luck Alonso.

Also I dont rate Button either, for mostly the same reasons, a lot of luck on his side the season when he won the WDC.
Sure, Honda/Brawn had been working on their car for a long time, but at the end of the day, they went broke, and Brawn bailed them out. That I think was luck.

 

[Rossticles]

Why is there a difference though when it comes to judging a drivers talent? At the end of the day, both these things (having a superior car or winning due to someone else DNF'ing) are generally out of the drivers hands. Just because you get lucky (like Vettel getting a top so early in his career) doesn't mean you aren't talented.

Alonso 'got a top' very early in his career also, same with Hamilton.

 

[The Outlaw]

Obviously. Let's bring up more useless trivia.

Also I dont rate Button either, for mostly the same reasons, a lot of luck on his side the season when he won the WDC.
Sure, Honda/Brawn had been working on their car for a long time, but at the end of the day, they went broke, and Brawn bailed them out. That I think was luck.

This still doesn't discount the fact that Button had the ability/talent to begin with, in order to win the WDC. How a team comes to success should be irrelevant to how a driver is rated (unless the driver has a great personal involvement in building up the team of course).

 

[Hollidog]

Obviously. Let's bring up more useless trivia.

Im not sure what you are talking about, unless you are admitting defeat?

 

[The Outlaw]

That was directed at Rossticles' post

 

[Hollidog]

Personally, I think that Button and Alonso are the two most overrated drivers in the whole field. But again, I was not discussing who was better than who, I was simply stating who I thought had more luck on their side. And you cant deny that in 09 Button got lucky that his team came back from bankruptcy (not considering the work that they had done preseason). Also you cant deny that Alonso was lucky when Vettels plugs failed.

I was confused because Ross reiterated what I said about Hamilton only he used Alonso as his first example.

I dont think driver v driver comparisons are feasible because there are so many variables. But who has had more luck than who, well that can be quantitatively measured.

 

[Rossticles]

Obviously. Let's bring up more useless trivia.

It's all useless to you when it is about someone other than Vettel. You're ragging on him for getting to a good team early in his career when Hamilton and Alonso had the same thing happen to them.

 

[The Outlaw]

Well, if you took the time to genuinely understand the argument you would have realized that it was useless information. And no, I'm not ragging on Vettel (I was actually defending him ironically)...I'm just pointing out the obvious.

 

[granturismite]

And in other news...

I hope it rains in Canada so no DRS is available (and rain makes it entertaining). I, for one, am not in favour of the two DRS zones. If they have two DRS deployable zones, there should be two detection zones.

If someone is in within 1 second, and passes before the "Wall of Champions", they can re-deploy the DRS with no car in front. disadvantage the overtaken driver a little more please...

 

[jeferobles]

the thing i would like to see is him against another top driver in the same car.
then we will see really if he is that quick.

I want to see Michael Schumacher in the RB7 against Vettel.

And no, I don't think he is as good or better than he was with Ferrari or Benneton, but I want to see him in a better car than the Mercedes.

 

[Terronium-12]

I want to see Michael Schumacher in the RB7 against Vettel.

And no, I don't think he is as good or better than he was with Ferrari or Benneton, but I want to see him in a better car than the Mercedes.

Would it make a difference? Of course he'd be faster as the RB7 is faster than the W02, but when it all comes down to it would it really make a difference? Look at him and Nico: Nico has outdone him at every turn of the corner and of course he's old and his responses aren't what they used to be...that's an absolute given. But don't you think the gap between him and Vettel would be even greater?

If this was the Schumacher of the 90's I'd say (from what I know) Vettel wouldn't stand much of a chance, especially with the likes of Hakkinen right there alongside both of 'em. I don't know...it's all a bunch of hypotheticals.

 

[Hollidog]

And in other news...

I hope it rains in Canada so no DRS is available (and rain makes it entertaining). I, for one, am not in favour of the two DRS zones. If they have two DRS deployable zones, there should be two detection zones.

If someone is in within 1 second, and passes before the "Wall of Champions", they can re-deploy the DRS with no car in front. disadvantage the overtaken driver a little more please...

I agree, it seems a little bit pointless as well especially considering that the first sequence of corners doesnt traditionally favor overtaking as much as the chicane does.

However if there were two detection zones it may be a different story, however, where would the next detection zone be? If it were before the chicane then the car behind would probably still be behind (assuming that the DRS is doing its job properly and putting the car in a position to overtake and not doing the overtake for them), and if that car were to pass the car into the chicane then they would still have the advantage of DRS down the next straight. Also, a large number of times I remember when people pass into that chicane, the outside car traditionally ends up cutting the chicane because two doesnt go into one. For this reason, if the detection zone was after the chicane then it would be a pretty safe assumption that the car that cut the chicane would still be in front at the detection zone, (before they gave the position back) and the car behind would get the position and then the DRS to use again on the front straight.

Especially considering the fact that up the inside on that particular should probably guarantee a pass, save for some ballsy breaking from the car being overtaken.

 

[F1 fan]

he hasn't won a world title, close but still doesn't count.

So I guess you don't rate the likes of Gilles Villeneuve, Gerhard Berger, Jacky Ickx or Stirling Moss?

if you check hamiltons rookie year he lost by 1 point and that was with a team mate who was a 2 time world champion beating alonso in q and finishing positions.

There was more to it than it seemed. The characteristics of the Michelin and Bridgestone tires were completely different. Alonso had spent all his F1 career on Michelin tires. In pre-season testing in early 2007, Hamilton looked quite off the pace of Fernando on the Michelin tires.

the only year when massa shined was when it went bad for kimi.

It went bad for Kimi because he got lazy.

all drivers in f1 are top drivers but very few are "top"'drivers.
Massa has nothing on those guys.

Had it not been for the Hungaroring 2008 or Singapore 2008, Massa would have been champion and Hamilton would still not be a champion. Would you be saying the same thing about Hamilton now?

So you mean to say that because of this, you can discount/disregard a drivers ability??? This is beyond flawed logic.

Why is there a difference though when it comes to judging a drivers talent? At the end of the day, both these things (having a superior car or winning due to someone else DNF'ing) are generally out of the drivers hands. Just because you get lucky (like Vettel getting a top car so early in his career) doesn't mean you aren't talented.

Vettel had to work for a top car. In case you'd forgotten, Hamilton started his career at Mclaren.

Vettel got into a top team the same way that Hamilton did, he proved himself in the junior formulas. Both drivers had similar first two (full) seasons. In that they both came to a top team, and won the championship with that team. I dont think that is luck. I dont agree that is is out of his hands, he made his own way to that team, just as Hamilton did.

Actually, Vettel had to work for his seat in a top team unlike Hamilton. And FYI, he didn't win the championship until his third full season.

I, for one, am not in favour of the two DRS zones. If they have two DRS deployable zones, there should be two detection zones.

Ditto.

 

[Hollidog]

Had it not been for the Hungaroring 2008 or Singapore 2008, Massa would have been champion and Hamilton would still not be a champion. Would you be saying the same thing about Hamilton now?

What about Spa 2008?

Vettel had to work for a top car. In case you'd forgotten, Hamilton started his career at Mclaren.
Actually, Vettel had to work for his seat in a top team unlike Hamilton. And FYI, he didn't win the championship until his third full season.

Hamilton proved himself in karting, which is why they picked him up. He also had to keep working in the other formulas (granted he was helped a lot by McLaren). He had to continually prove himself otherwise they would have dropped him, like how Red Bull dropped Brendan Hartley, and no doubt countless others.
Vettel also had a helping had from Red Bull (who pretty much paid for his entire F3 championship) and he drove for Toro Rosso.
This is however a fact of F1, I would say most if not all drivers who have come into the sport recently have had the consistent backing or at least been in constant discussion with a team or sponsor who are linked with a team. Hence why there are so many Red Bull cars in F3 and World Series by Renault, and other manufacturers in GP2 and GP3, such as Adrian Neweys Arden and his venture with Mark Webber in MW Arden. Mark Webber who is a signed 'mentor' to his driver Mitch Evans who won the first GP3 race at Spain.

Facts are facts, and saying that a guy gets "given" drives in good teams is not true. I will accept that for the worse teams, like Williams who ousted Hulkenburg for Maldonado who brought a lot of money, the same as how Sakon Yamamoto can just buy his way into HRT.

My bad about the amount of seasons.
[/QUOTE]

 

[F1 fan]

What about Spa 2008?

There were a few flashes of brilliance, but he performed poorly over the season. A few good races do not win you a championship. Are you implying Spa 2008 was bad luck for Raikkonen? If so then that wasn't the case. He made a mistake on his own.

Hamilton proved himself in karting, which is why they picked him up. He also had to keep working in the other formulas (granted he was helped a lot by McLaren). He had to continually prove himself otherwise they would have dropped him, like how Red Bull dropped Brendan Hartley, and no doubt countless others.
Vettel also had a helping had from Red Bull (who pretty much paid for his entire F3 championship) and he drove for Toro Rosso.
This is however a fact of F1, I would say most if not all drivers who have come into the sport recently have had the consistent backing or at least been in constant discussion with a team or sponsor who are linked with a team. Hence why there are so many Red Bull cars in F3 and World Series by Renault, and other manufacturers in GP2 and GP3, such as Adrian Neweys Arden and his venture with Mark Webber in MW Arden. Mark Webber who is a signed 'mentor' to his driver Mitch Evans who won the first GP3 race at Spain.

Facts are facts, and saying that a guy gets "given" drives in good teams is not true. I will accept that for the worse teams, like Williams who ousted Hulkenburg for Maldonado who brought a lot of money, the same as how Sakon Yamamoto can just buy his way into HRT.

My bad about the amount of seasons.

I know it's a fact of F1, but not even Hamilton expected to be driving for McLaren. He expected to be farmed out to a team in exchange for a Mercedes engine deal. The fact is that he entered F1 in easily the best team. Had he not been a match for Alonso, Alonso would now be a three time world champion. Don't get me wrong, Lewis justified his position in the team, but at the start of the 2007 team, if you were given a choice of driving for Mclaren or Toro Rosso, which team would you have gone for?

My point is, Vettel earned his place at Red Bull beforehand. Lewis Hamilton could have(but wasn't) been an embarrasment to Mclaren. But he was given a seat at arguably the best team in his rookiie season.

 

[Hollidog]

There were a few flashes of brilliance, but he performed poorly over the season. A few good races do not win you a championship. Are you implying Spa 2008 was bad luck for Raikkonen? If so then that wasn't the case. He made a mistake on his own.

Bad for Hamilton. He had a penalty imposed on him which was deemed by many to be unacceptable. Niki Lauda said that he could "not understand this completely wrong decision". Took his lead down from 6 points to just 2.

Its irrelevant anyway because you cant change the facts.

I know it's a fact of F1, but not even Hamilton expected to be driving for McLaren. He expected to be farmed out to a team in exchange for a Mercedes engine deal. The fact is that he entered F1 in easily the best team. Had he not been a match for Alonso, Alonso would now be a three time world champion. Don't get me wrong, Lewis justified his position in the team, but at the start of the 2007 team, if you were given a choice of driving for Mclaren or Toro Rosso, which team would you have gone for?

My point is, Vettel earned his place at Red Bull beforehand. Lewis Hamilton could have(but wasn't) been an embarrasment to Mclaren. But he was given a seat at arguably the best team in his rookiie season.

What makes you say that Alonso would have been champion? Raikonnen won that year while Alonso was third. Even if he was a match for Hamilton they still wouldve been beaten by Raikonnen. Which again is entirely subjective. You can look back at a season with as many ifs, buts and maybes as you want but facts are facts.

And whos to say that Vettel couldnt of been an embarrassment to Red Bull? Correct me if Im wrong but was it not while he was driving the sister teams car that he crashed into the Red Bull of Mark Webber at Japan? Argue all you want but they both had privileged positions in their respective teams.

Besides the argument wasnt about who is "better" than who. It was about luck. And it was not "luck" that Vettel and Hamilton ended up in good teams early on in their career. Its not like he spun a wheel at Woking and ended up at McLaren. Alonso however won the proverbial lottery when he inherited his win in Bahrain 2009.

 

[hampus_dh]

It isnt lucky the Vettel drives for RBR, but it is lucky for Alonso when Vettels plugs fail and he inherits the win.

No, that´s racing and part of racing. If your car can´t last a GP distance then you did not deserve to win the race. It´s not bad luck or good luck for anyone.
It´s just a sparkplug fail that nobody would know happened.

Do you want me to bring up all the other mechanical failures cars have had during the years aswell? You can´t say that because this guy had this happened to him he would have done this or this guy got "lucky".

I dont think you can categorically deny the existance of luck, without getting into a huge debate.

What is it if, using a recent example, not sure if you watched it, but the grid draws for the second INDYcar race. Wade Cunningham managed to pick grid two out of 30. If thats not luck then what is? Predetermined destiny perhaps, but then is it not lucky that he got that predetermined destiny?

Button was lucky for the reasons mentioned above.

I think i can honestly. Because all it is, is actions and reactions. Nothing more nothing less.
Wade Cunningham chose the right grid apparently...No luck.
No pre-determined destiny aswell. Actions and reactions..

So I guess you don't rate the likes of Gilles Villeneuve, Gerhard Berger, Jacky Ickx or Stirling Moss?

Not necessarily but no. Guys like Jim Clark, Fangio, Senna, Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel are a rare breed of drivers.

Ron Dennis was asked who he thought was quickest out of Senna and Hamilton. Guess the answer.

There was more to it than it seemed. The characteristics of the Michelin and Bridgestone tires were completely different. Alonso had spent all his F1 career on Michelin tires. In pre-season testing in early 2007, Hamilton looked quite off the pace of Fernando on the Michelin tires.

Doesn´t really matter. Nobody has spent their career on Pirellis for example but they seem to be doing fine. Also don´t forget that was Hamilton´s first ever year in F1. Can´t deny the astonishing pace he had from the get go.

It went bad for Kimi because he got lazy.

Agreed.

Had it not been for the Hungaroring 2008 or Singapore 2008, Massa would have been champion and Hamilton would still not be a champion. Would you be saying the same thing about Hamilton now?

Had everyone in the field crashed out every race except for Super Aguri and Anthony Davidson he would have been a world champion by now.
Doesn´t work like that.

Vettel had to work for a top car. In case you'd forgotten, Hamilton started his career at Mclaren.

I know that. But Hamilton talked with his driving long before joining F1.
He has records in F3 and GP2 that still stand today. He smoked everyone in F3 even when Vettel was in the series.

And, Di Resta and Vettel was in the same team, guess who dominated who?

 

[Hollidog]

No, that´s racing and part of racing. If your car can´t last a GP distance then you did not deserve to win the race. It´s not bad luck or good luck for anyone.
It´s just a sparkplug fail that nobody would know happened.

Do you want me to bring up all the other mechanical failures cars have had during the years aswell? You can´t say that because this guy had this happened to him he would have done this or this guy got "lucky".

What happens if you win the lottery? It is a random event, just like a spark plug failure.

I think i can honestly. Because all it is, is actions and reactions. Nothing more nothing less.
Wade Cunningham chose the right grid apparently...No luck.
No pre-determined destiny aswell. Actions and reactions..

Perhaps I dont understand your perspective here. Say he drew out grid 30, would that be bad luck? He had no way of knowing what it was going to be? What is it if its not luck?

 

[Furinkazen]

ORECA and Kronos off.

 

[Prince.M5]

ORECA and Kronos off.

Formula Mans?

The weather says it might rain for the race. I've never watched any wet racing in Montreal so this could be interesting.

 

[Centura]

"You make your own luck." - Martin Brundle

 

[hampus_dh]

What happens if you win the lottery? It is a random event, just like a spark plug failure.

I picked the winning lottery ticket?! One has to pick it..

Perhaps I dont understand your perspective here. Say he drew out grid 30, would that be bad luck? He had no way of knowing what it was going to be? What is it if its not luck?

actions and reactions.

 

[Akmuq]

For this argument about drivers getting lucky. Yes they did, but they had to be in the position to capitalize. For example, last week at Monaco Vettel could have pitted much earlier but then Alonso started pressurizing him and luckily for Vettel a red flag was put out and he could easily win. If he pitted he probably wouldn't have won.

Or Kocaleinen making it through to Q2 in Spain because Barrichello and Algiersauri I think having problems. They had done enough development to be able to capitalize where as last year they wouldn't have and there wouldn't have been any luck for Lotus.

So yes, "you make your own luck" as already quoted.

 

[Hollidog]

I picked the winning lottery ticket?! One has to pick it..



actions and reactions.

I dont know where you live, but where I live, you dont get to pick your numbers, they are randomly assigned, and then they are randomly drawn.

Luck is "Success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions." Of course your action is buying the lotto ticket, but that is not lucky in itself obviously. If you win, it is brought about by chance and not by your action because you didnt draw the numbers.

Also, just saying actions and reactions doesnt make it true either. You need to prove your point...

For this argument about drivers getting lucky. Yes they did, but they had to be in the position to capitalize. For example, last week at Monaco Vettel could have pitted much earlier but then Alonso started pressurizing him and luckily for Vettel a red flag was put out and he could easily win. If he pitted he probably wouldn't have won.

Or Kocaleinen making it through to Q2 in Spain because Barrichello and Algiersauri I think having problems. They had done enough development to be able to capitalize where as last year they wouldn't have and there wouldn't have been any luck for Lotus.

So yes, "you make your own luck" as already quoted.

Yes, Vettel did get lucky in that race. Of course if he pitted and then the red came out he would have been hugely disadvantaged. The red flag came out, it was outside of his control, and it advantaged him, in the same way that it disadvantaged Button and Alonso. Considering the circumstances, and what actually happened and not what could of happened, yes, Vettel got lucky.

When I first brought this up I made sure to mention that the actions of the team whether it be in the pits or in the factory, has nothing to do with luck. Your second example is totally subjective, there are no ifs, buts or maybes. Saying that last year they would have been here or there doesnt prove anything.

 

[lmanion]

I picked the winning lottery ticket?! One has to pick it..



actions and reactions.

and you have to be in it to win it

Pulling a certain number out of a hat from 1-30 to me isnt luck but a game of chance really, there is a probability of pulling out any of those numbers but it isnt luck although some people like to call it that

 

[Hollidog]

and you have to be in it to win it

Pulling a certain number out of a hat from 1-30 to me isnt luck but a game of chance really, there is a probability of pulling out any of those numbers but it isnt luck although some people like to call it that

But luck, good or bad, goes with chance does it not? Your chances are 1 in 30 and picking 1 is good luck and picking 30 is bad luck. That is luck, and if its not luck, then what is it? Sell it to me guys.

 

[Grayfox]

I dont know where you live, but where I live, you dont get to pick your numbers, they are randomly assigned, and then they are randomly drawn.

In Australia we have servral lottos.

In each one you can pick your numbers 6 normal and 2 supps or 5 minor numbers and 1 major numbers, or you can choose to have an autopick.