Forza 3 real polygon counts revealed

[Terronium-12]

Altough you can be damned ennoying at times, you mostly know what you're talking about. I also never believed that redicilous statement, 1mil?, seriously? Well, we were right after all. What puzzles me here from a tech-perpective is, that the Xbox is supposed to have a better graphics card, which can do 200 mil polys more (500MIL) than the ps3 (300MIL). So how comes that GT5 does not only look better, but also have a slightly higher poly count an twice as much cars on track and all the effects of course like weather.

Is it really the Cell, which makes the difference?

Without geeking out as I usually do, the short answer is yes.

The long answer concerns Cell, and OpenGL that's binded with nVidia's Cg language

 

[Alex p.]

Without geeking out as I usually do, the short answer is yes.

The long answer concerns Cell, and OpenGL that's binded with nVidia's Cg language

You can safely geek about it, no problem, I love hearing the tech stuff, can also send me a pm if you want.

 

[Terronium-12]

You can safely geek about it, no problem, I love hearing the tech stuff, can also send me a pm if you want.

I'll PM you. Don't want this spiraling off topic.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Except that Turn10 never said that, i remember where that came from, it was a user here that said Forza 2 cars were 100k polygons (totally false) and just in base of that he did the 100k * 10 times = 1 million.

Forza 2 had around 50-60k if I remember correctly, that would mean 500-600k polygons per car, which is still far off.

By the way, i dont think GT5 cars are 500k either, il say about 200k-300k.

We might find out soon, but I find that believable, although not in-game, but the highest photomode LOD could have that many.

And Turn10 high poly cars looks awesome, other than more coloured interiors in premium cars they look equal to me and this is very important when we think that Polyphony worked 6 years in 220 cars while the outsourced 3d modelling company that works for Turn10 did 500+ in less than 3 years.

Untrue, because a lot of cars in Forza 3 are ported from Forza 2, with added cockpits. Not every car was outsourced either, both companies worked on them, which actually explains the "high" number of cars. And while I agree with you that they don't look bad (most look very good), "equal" is a bit of a stretch, although I envy you when you really think so.

Altough you can be damned ennoying at times,

Yey, we have something in common!

you mostly know what you're talking about.

Thank you.

I also never believed that redicilous statement, 1mil?, seriously? Well, we were right after all. What puzzles me here from a tech-perpective is, that the Xbox is supposed to have a better graphics card, which can do 200 mil polys more (500MIL) than the ps3 (300MIL). So how comes that GT5 does not only look better, but also have a slightly higher poly count an twice as much cars on track and all the effects of course like weather.

Is it really the Cell, which makes the difference?

Mostly, yes.

By the way, I don't want to bash Forza or anything (I admit I am a huge Gran Turismo fan though), but facts are facts.

 

[Alex p.]

GTACE why do you make me hate you so much?
You just had to bash me, eh?

 

[Terronium-12]

Uhm, Ace...

There is no 'mostly', Cell is the difference between the major disparities between 360 exclusives and PS3 exclusives...well, that and Cg but for the most part the SPE's still play a huge factor in said disparities.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Like you wrote for yourself, OpenGL for example.
There's also some other stuff, even the BD drive helps in the graphics department (extreme fast streaming from the disc, so textures can be loaded quicker) and stuff like that. But yes, of course the Cell makes the biggest difference.

GTACE why do you make me hate you so much?
You just had to bash me, eh?

It's so easy. 8/

 

[Lil Ape]

I figured Daniel would make an appearance in this thread.

 

[The_Paladin]

By the way, I don't want to bash Forza or anything (I admit I am a huge Gran Turismo fan though), but facts are facts.

How can be 50k-60k in Forza 2 if Forza 3 gameplay models are 45k, its pretty easy to spot better cars in Forza 3 where now the cars have 3D engines while some in Forza 2 had just textures (like the F40).

Il say 35k for Forza 2, x10 no where near of a million and much closer than the marketing "fact" of 10 times the polygons.
The fact that Forza 3d models are around 200k make me value them even more, those artist are very efficient not only in time but in resource usage too, making their cars looking as good as premiums with even less polygons, kudos for them.

 

[Eric.]

As for sound Forza has decent sounds on some cars and not so good on others. The sound is always the same regaurdless of being in bumper, hood, cockpit or chase views which of course is not realistic at all. Some of the Mazdas in Forza sound really bad kind of like a toy airplane.

Completely wrong. Sound is different based on camera view. Cockpit is quieter, chase and rear (i.e., looking behind you) cameras have more exhaust sound. You can also go to the chase view and look around the car and hear the sound get louder as you get back to the normal position looking forward.

I don't know what you consider to only be "decent" sound. They aren't real consistent on sounding stock or like they have a race exhaust though. At least most favor the race exhaust sound. GT only knows how to make I4s sound right.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

Completely wrong. Sound is different based on camera view. Cockpit is quieter, chase and rear (i.e., looking behind you) cameras have more exhaust sound. You can also go to the chase view and look around the car and hear the sound get louder as you get back to the normal position looking forward.

I don't know what you consider to only be "decent" sound. They aren't real consistent on sounding stock or like they have a race exhaust though. At least most favor the race exhaust sound. GT only knows how to make I4s sound right.

I normally drive either hood or cockpit so just in case I was mistaken I took 2 different cars out on the track and cycled through all the views. The difference is barely detectable from one view to the next. If the car has a turbo you can hear it slightly and I do mean slightly better in hood view and slightly worse from the far chase cam. You can also hear a slight bit of air in the front views. The cockpit view is very very slightly lower volume and just a wee bit deeper tone. The rear view close is slightly louder than the far.

On both cars tested at full speed you had to pay close attention to notice any difference to speak of. For all intents and purposes I feel it is correct to say they sound the same. Cars tested were Mazda race car and Stock Aston Martin.

I do remember in Forza 2 the C06 Vette sounded very throaty if you were behind it in another car not sure about Forza 3 as they made it non competive in its class.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

But I'm surprised that it's "only" 173k polygons in car selection (still a lot and they look fantastic), because they said that FM3 had 10 times more polygons than FM2 per car.

I think it's safe to say the "10 times more" was just a figure of speech. People use it all the time when referring to anything. I think it's funny that so many flame wars have been based off of those three words.

 

[G.T.Ace]

How can be 50k-60k in Forza 2 if Forza 3 gameplay models are 45k, its pretty easy to spot better cars in Forza 3 where now the cars have 3D engines while some in Forza 2 had just textures (like the F40).

I was talking about the highest LOD of course.

 

[ibuycheap]

Like you wrote for yourself, OpenGL for example.
There's also some other stuff, even the BD drive helps in the graphics department (extreme fast streaming from the disc, so textures can be loaded quicker) and stuff like that. But yes, of course the Cell makes the biggest difference.



It's so easy. 8/

Streaming from bd (on ps3) is actually slower than dvd (on xbox). Hence all the duplicate data and necessary preinstalls.

 

[Eric.]

Or not.

I read all this about ps3 bluray drive being slow. Lets compare the read rates.

Ps3's 2x blu-ray drive read at a constant 9 MB/s no matter if it is dual layer or single layer.

360's 12x DVD-rom drive It read at fluxuating rates. For single layer it reads 9.25MB/s through 15.85MB/s averaging around 10.25MB/s. In Double layer it reads 4.36MB/s through 10.57MB/s averaging around 7.93MB/s

Here is the source for the DVD-rom drive http://www.hitachi.us/supportingdocs...ead speed"

Here is the source for the Blu-ray drive http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/

The ps3's constant read speed for SL and DL is faster then the average of 360's DL read speed. So what is with all this crap about ps3's read rate being slow.

Link

 

[G.T.Ace]

Thanks, wanted to post that but couldn't find the details anymore.
Which also explains why both Uncharted games and Killzone 2 don't need installs and still look better than almost everything else.

Anyway, kinda off-topic.

 

[The_Paladin]

I was talking about the highest LOD of course.

Forza 2 models are the same for menus, photomode and gameplay, they must be around 35k while Forza 3 gameplay models are 45k and the photomode/menu models are around 200k.

 

[mykem]

I posted this on the GT5 forum (and got jumped by GT fans thinking that it's favoring Forza "4"). It's just interesting observation what was purported to be the current FM4 development although as many seemed to suggest, that it isn't really real-time. The second image is from actual GT5 photo-mode. I would also assume (not having seen the actual image in its full 1920x1080pixel since it's clearly not from Photo-Travel) that size reduction somewhat enhance the look of the 458. The third is from FM3's photomode (reduced from 1280x720p). The point is numbers especially the ones given out by the developers should be taken with the grainiest of salt. Instead let your eyes be the judge:

This second sets show that polygons ain't everything. A good graphic engine/shader/lighting in the hand of a well paid talented 3D artists makes more of a difference:

The final set. Yes, Polygons matter. But it's just as important to have moving parts

 

[Terronium-12]

That 458 pic shouts "I'm ray traced!". Dan said they worked up a new graphics engine for FM4, and if that's true...there's really no telling what FM4 will look like.

The 360 is fairly limited in theoretical peak processing throughput when compared to the PS3, but it seems Microsoft doesn't give T10 enough time to optimize their assets, instead it's just one refinement after another. It actually makes me sick a little bit.

 

[jabofu]

I dont care about polygons, the processors or disc-reading-times. Forza looks quite good for a 1+ year old game and is only limited by its graphics engine and the limited support from Microsoft.

I like the Forza franchise a lot. Its more the freedom of it than the graphic site. Because I really dislike the colours and lighting of the game. I hope the new engine will change that atleast a bit. But what i love is that you have a really advancend physics-engine, which really comes to life with the right wheel (Fanatec Porsche Turbo S). The other great things are the upgrade and tuning section, painting and livery section and the multiplayer part including the community shops. Besides the physics and graphics, GT cant compete with that (please dont kill me now). But that is ok.

People have to understand that Forza is a racing simulation and GT a driving simulation with very different basics and directions.

Both games are slowly heading for the same path and they will deliver a nearly equal experience in the future.

So try to enjoy both games and stop to humiliate the people who like Forza, we all just love cars!

 

[Jay]

People have to understand that Forza is a racing simulation and GT a driving simulation with very different basics and directions.

And how do you figure that?

 

[adama]

i am %100 sure that forza 4 screens released by turn 10 after e3 are cgi or well photoshopped.Look at these comparasion.First captured from real time kinect e3 video,second from direct screenshots.

Still plastic shaders.Unrealistic lightning.Look at the mirrors.
And last one.

Car geometry is different.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

Forza has lots of good points and not so good points. Graphics is not something I would find issue with as they are very good in game. The only graphic issues I have with Forza are. The blinding white screens and the fact that you can not see when working on the rear of the car in the livery editor.

My issues with the game are mostly with changes they made from Forza 2. The removal of the non ranked public races, removal of custom public lobbies. The removal of in lobby tuning. The addition of AWD swaps in many many cars that should not have such an option. The PI errors that allow AWD cars to get more performance at the same PI rating as a weaker RWD or FWD car. The fact that you can no longer buy a custom painted car and gift it to a friend. The fact that you can no longer choose to sell an unlocked paint or tune. The loss of tire options. The removal of local leaderboards. The removal of career leaderboards.

There are a few others but for all of the above reasons Forza 2 owns Forza 3.

If they continue to move backwards in Forza 4 I will not be buying it.

 

[newbielives]

lol I was thinking exactly the same thing

And how do you figure that?

 

[Centura]

That 458 pic shouts "I'm ray traced!". Dan said they worked up a new graphics engine for FM4, and if that's true...there's really no telling what FM4 will look like.:

Obviously CGI, but I can't wait until cars look like that. Probably won't happen until next generation, though.

 

[G.T.Ace]

That Forza Kinect demo was pre-rendered, the whole presentation with the Ferrari was faked. Although, I agree that it looks awesome.

 

[newbielives]

The more I think about it, I think Forza4 is going to look a lot like F1 2010 and run at 30fps


.... sorry but the madness of insomnia is setting in.

 

[Bogie 19th]

That Forza Kinect demo was pre-rendered, the whole presentation with the Ferrari was faked. Although, I agree that it looks awesome.

Negative.

 

[G.T.Ace]

The on-stage demo was faked (you could see the hand moving in the demo before the guy "controlling" it moved), haven't seen the video above, my bad. Anyway, we won't see a game with these graphics though (in-game, on track), not in this generation.

 

[ibuycheap]

Thanks, wanted to post that but couldn't find the details anymore.
Which also explains why both Uncharted games and Killzone 2 don't need installs and still look better than almost everything else.

Anyway, kinda off-topic.

Well that's just it, it is still effectively slower. You can't just say well the average rate is x therefore it is slower, a dev can take advantage of the higher peak speed on the xbox drive and put more frequently accessed data on that portion of the disk.

Since most games take xbox as lead platform that optimization happens a lot hence the required or recommended installs on many 3rd party titles.