Forza 3 real polygon counts revealed

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adama
i am %100 sure that forza 4 screens released by turn 10 after e3 are cgi or well photoshopped.Look at these comparasion.First captured from real time kinect e3 video,second from direct screenshots.
vr96rm.png

e3-2010-forza-4-artwork-20100614031909709.jpg

Still plastic shaders.Unrealistic lightning.Look at the mirrors.
And last one.
ruppbb.jpg

Car geometry is different.
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Obviously those better quality ones are render (very easy to tell), basically they are artworks, the others are realtime.

To look a lot better Forza need to redo the lighting settings and the colour palette, some users do great picture where Forza looks much more real, if we could only tune the general image like that. I hope Turn10 does it in Forza 4, just improving that will be a world of diference since the cars and the tracks are very well made.

As for the E3 2010 presentation, all kinect stage demo were faked, not because the games/tech demo didnt exist, it was because MS didnt want screw up in stage like the last year, Forza and other were showed working behind closed doors to the press.
 
The_Paladin
As for the E3 2010 presentation, all kinect stage demo were faked, not because the games/tech demo didnt exist, it was because MS didnt want screw up in stage like the last year, Forza and other were showed working behind closed doors to the press.
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Yup, it's no surprise. Sony does this with GT and MS does it with Forza. It's all about presentation.
 
McLaren
It must be. Only GT fanboys have such ridiculous sigs so they can constantly remind people of how much they troll/hate Forza.
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I'm sick of this hackneyed use of the word "troll". A troll, by definition, is a post that only an ignorant member would so much as respond to, hence the phrase "trolling for newbies". A troll qualifies as a useless post and the AUP states that any spam should be reported. It says a lot about the mentality of members round here that they feel the need to dismiss every post they come across that conflicts with their personal opinion as a "troll". :rolleyes:
 
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ibuycheap
Well that's just it, it is still effectively slower. You can't just say well the average rate is x therefore it is slower, a dev can take advantage of the higher peak speed on the xbox drive and put more frequently accessed data on that portion of the disk.

Since most games take xbox as lead platform that optimization happens a lot hence the required or recommended installs on many 3rd party titles.
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Two things

1. Dual Layer DVD has differing rates again.. http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=42157 gives a more general appraisal, showing the min/max/average.
2. Both consoles seem to prefer HDD installation for a lot of stuff, BR/DVD are still both not ideal for streaming large amounts, it would all have to be 'laid' out sequentially at all times, if it has to random read you suffer real issues.

I'm happy to think that BR/DVD speed really isn't going to affect anything in the long run..

Despite the fact some aspects of FM3 graphics I really like (Camino Viejo Track is really well modelled with excellent textures in some instances), I'm very sure GT5p/GT5 will use much higher LOD's then the highest LOD's used in FM3 in-game. Of course the whole LOD mechanism means at times some models in GT5 will no doubt have a very low polygon count, but that's kind of obvious..

Some of the GT5 photomode shots are just sublime.. FM3 is pretty enough, but I don't think T10 will ever go for some aspects of GT5 graphics, I'm not sure the 360 is able, and clearly T10 really seem to have compromised some graphical aspects to maintain 60fps, PD seem happy to sacrifice a bit of framerate at times to maintain visual IQ..

The main thing T10 need to do is just massively improve the lighting/shading/whatever to give that more realisitic look and spend time developing a more advanced LOD system to allow the higher poly cars to be seen at times when they can be.. but they have been on a 2 year dev cycle since FM1, so I am not that hopeful..

Still.. if FM4 takes a 10-20% graphical increase and the physics are tweaked another 20% etc it'll be another game worthy of my attention.
 
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On another note the HD is always faster that the optical media and installing to HD will prolong the life of the DVD or BR drive as well as the DVD/BR discs.
 
HBR-Roadhog
On another note the HD is always faster that the optical media and installing to HD will prolong the life of the DVD or BR drive as well as the DVD/BR discs.
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It's about time MS allowed (like Sony) to specify 'mandatory installs' and the presence of a HDD (for cacheing) and let developers get a little 'base' performance increase to play with.. As it stands, MS still pretty much stipulate all games must be playable from disk, meaning a slightly lower LCD then Sony allow.
 
phil-t
The main thing T10 need to do is just massively improve the lighting/shading/whatever to give that more realisitic look and spend time developing a more advanced LOD system to allow the higher poly cars to be seen at times when they can be.. but they have been on a 2 year dev cycle since FM1, so I am not that hopeful..
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I think by far the biggest thing T10 could do is redo their lighting algorithms. It's why in many places GT5P and GT5 almost look real while Forza 3 never seems to elevate past just being a great looking game.
 
The main thing T10 needs to do is fix the PI system and the online public racing. The graphics are plenty good enough but no matter how great the graphics unless the online mode is better it will stll fall in the shadow of Forza 2.
 
infamousDee
Positive. That video you linked to looked just like FM3, as opposed to those ray-traced renders shown at the Kinect presentation.
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Positive and Negative.. If you watch the E3 presentation..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giQo0QoeMlc

You can see that in the main, it's the same 'kinect' demo that they showed the press behind closed doors, but it does have some small 'cut' scenes that are obviously these ridiculously high pre-rendered affairs..

No big deal to me, but clearly to some it seems to be..

HBR-Roadhog
The main thing T10 needs to do is fix the PI system and the online public racing. The graphics are plenty good enough but no matter how great the graphics unless the online mode is better it will stll fall in the shadow of Forza 2.
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I like what potentially (I haven't got my hands on it, hence why I'm posting here) GT5 is doing for MP, I'd say perhaps some 'track day' and 'organised' elements from that could be put in FM4, and yes, if public lobbies are what some people want, put them back in..
I pretty much only race in private races (mainly organised) and have found the greater configuration of FM3 online to be a huge step up, but I acknowledge that for some the public hoppers (still fun though, just not enough variation at times) aren't cutting it as FM2 did for them.

As for PI.. that's an interesting one, it's inherently flawed in some ways, they could 'fix' the blatant flaws of course, but it's very nature will lead to issues.. I'd like better leaderboards (RWD/FWD/AWD) and possibly even per 'standard' cars (not tuned) as well..

I have an awful feeling that MS and Kinect might get in the way of FM, but I'm happy to enjoy GT5 for a long time and see what T10 come up with.. you never know..
 
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I'm also wetting myself that Kinect development will eat into the time T10 need to make a true GT rival and not just a damn good effort. For what they do in the time given to them, they seem like a talented bunch of devs. Considering the first three GTs that PD did on those generations of hardware, to make your second and third ever game in this era must take some effort, especially as none of it is inherently terrible.
 
infamousDee
I'm sick of this hackneyed use of the word "troll". A troll, by definition, is a post that only an ignorant member would so much as respond to, hence the phrase "trolling for newbies". A troll qualifies as a useless post and the AUP states that any spam should be reported. It says a lot about the mentality of members round here that they feel the need to dismiss every post they come across that conflicts with their personal opinion as a "troll". :rolleyes:
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A troll is not a post & it is not spam. I have never seen anyone use that term before, either.
Before attempting to make this kind of post, please know what it is you're actually talking about. Trolls online, are people whose soul purpose to cause flame wars, incite "lulz", and just go against everyone for the sake of amusement. "Trolling" is merely act of creating the posts to do so.

While you're learning that, you can also go back and see the part where I typed, "troll/hate".



Now, U MAD 'cause I just school'd all ova ya? Kthnxbye[/troll speak]
 
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HBR-Roadhog
The main thing T10 needs to do is fix the PI system and the online public racing. The graphics are plenty good enough but no matter how great the graphics unless the online mode is better it will stll fall in the shadow of Forza 2.
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Still not sure why you think the PI is the end-all deciding factor whether two cars will be perfect equals on a track.


But I've got something in the works and here's a little data from it:


06 Civic Si - 366hp, 247tq, 2849lbs
10 TSX V6 - 493hp, 393tq, 3644lbs
Fiat 500 - 349hp, 337tq, 2039lbs
E46 M3 - 355hp, 279tq, 3319lbs
Challenger - 431hp, 425tq, 4033lbs
Audi S5 - 408hp, 380tq, 3764lbs
Continental GT - (forgot to put this on my sheet)

Test Times
Catalunya Grand Prix
Civic - 1’58.5-1’59.5
TSX - 1’58.0
500 - 1’58.476
E46 - 1’59.0
Challenger - 1’58.8
S5 - 1’58.3-1’58.8
Continental GT 1’59.844

Those cars are all on sports tires with some other restrictions kept in place, like only a few motor swaps and essentially no drivetrain conversions.

FWD cars are A525, RWD are B500, and AWD are B475. Its completely realistic that the FWD cars are slower and thus need more modifications to be as fast as RWD. And AWD cars are that much faster again over the RWD cars. Apart from that, cars with the same drivetrain yet drastically different stats are, surprise(!), quite even.
 
Eric.
Still not sure why you think the PI is the end-all deciding factor whether two cars will be perfect equals on a track.
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That is because you are infering something that was not implied nor intended. The fact is the PI is a problem in Forza 3. It was a problem in Forza 2 and it has became a bigger problem in Forza 3.

You will never get 2 different cars to be perfect equals but if they are going to be rated with the exact same rating they should at least be somewhat close to each other, especially if both are tuned in the same manner but this is not the case at all in Forza 3.

Take the 550 Porsche from the new DLC pack. It allows an AWD swap and it is rapidly hitting the top of the leaderboards in E,F,D,C classes on almost every track in the game. Why because the PI rating is lower than the performance of the car. Other cars do not show up in the top 100 anywhere in any class. Why? because the PI is higher than the performace of the car.

If you can not see this is a problem then either you have not payed much attention or you just refuse to admit that Forza is not perfect because it is crystal clear that the PI is not very good.

If I were to go through my garage I could give you many examples but there is not much point in it. You should see it already and if not then you likely will not.

At any rate the PI needs to be fixed.

I pretty much only race in private races (mainly organised) and have found the greater configuration of FM3 online to be a huge step up, but I acknowledge that for some the public hoppers (still fun though, just not enough variation at times) aren't cutting it as FM2 did for them.
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The private racing was a very nice addition, and the options there are great as well. What they need is to activate the same system and make one of the options to be Open Lobby where as right now they only have [Friends Only] and [Invite Only]
They also need a function to allow people to search for these open lobbies similar to what was in Forza 2.

The thing is that with the public lobbies of this type you can meet up with people that like to race the way you like to race in the kinds of cars you like to drive and your circle of racing buddies expands. Sure there will be some idiots, maybe a lot of them but you have a chance to meet up with people who you otherwise would not and this is a good thing. The hoppers just don't cut it though they can leave them as well just not at the expense of the custom lobbies we once had.
 
toothache
not a chance...you wish that where true :crazy:
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McLaren
It must be. Only GT fanboys have such ridiculous sigs so they can constantly remind people of how much they troll/hate Forza.
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How many damn times do I have to ask you guys to 'play nice'?

@toothache - I had already addressed that post and as a member of staff I find your comment here to be incredibly unhelpful. In future think before you post or you will find that I give you a reminder than will stay on your membership record.

@McLaren - The exact same thing can be said in regard to GT5 Sceptic's username, particularly given that he is critical of the GT series. Just as the member in questions post is far from helpful, I would greatly appreciate it if you refrained from pouring petrol on the flames.


@all - I've now lost count of the number of times I have asked people to use the report button if you have issue with the manner in which a member is posting, the next member to ignore this advice and simply react in thread gets an infraction.


Scaff
 
Eric.
Thanks for ignoring the 8 cars and their 8 similar times.
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8 cars out of 500 + ?

I have tuned most of the cars in Forza for every class that they may have any chance of being competive in and as I said it is crystal clear that there is a problem in the PI ratings. Some cars the PI number is to low for the performance they have and others it is 2 high.

If you notice you are also indicating that 525, 500 and 475 cars perform about the same that is one car at the top of it's class another that can still be upgraded to turn a better lap while staying in the given class and yet another which has already moved into the next class but is not faster.

This applies to cars with the same drivetrain as well. Look at the race cars for example. X class is upgraded R1 yet there are R1 cars that out perform X class cars yet are not X class and can not even be made into X Class. R2 cars that have no chance in R2 when stock and when upgraded become R1 and still are not strong enough to compete with some of the other R2 cars and certianly not R1 cars.

If you pay attention you will also find that the Speed and Acc ratings on many cars is way off as well. It is almost impossible to judge the performance of most cars in the game by looking at the bar graphs of speed handling and acc as handling is the only one that seems accurate and even then is misleading on some.

The AWD swaps play havoc on the PI vs actual performance especially in the muscle cars. Take the Barracuda for example. Drive it with and without the AWD swap and see which one is faster and then look at how much higher the PI is for the stock one vs the AWD.

Now maybe just maybe the stock PI is close on a lot or even most cars, this is not the case when cars are tuned.
 
I'm sorry I haven't had the chance to tune every car in the game to that level? However those 8 chosen with no particular reasons in mind work (okay, actually I'm getting one light, mid-weight, and heavy car of each RWD, FWD, AWD).


Speed and accel ratings aren't accurate because they don't take gearing and any downforce settings into account. Handling varies from person to person also. That rating probably comes from some combination of the car's weight and the max lateral G.

If you'd be more specific and say that the PI rating is broken based on drivetrains you would be more correct. But you can assume in pretty much every racing game that FWD<RWD<AWD. And yes the AWD swaps are a huge problem.


I'm not going to argue about any of the R class cars. They've got far too many cars from different racing series but only three R classes (plus X) to class them in for the game. Ideally there'd be around four. R4 for the more-or-less production based race cars that reside in S and the lower parts of R3 currently (911, C5 Z06.R, Tiger Racing Mustang, etc), GT1, GT2, and JGTC/Super GT cars in R3 (probably?), LMP2 cars in R2, and LMP1s in R1. Even then it seems there should maybe be a fifth class. But it all starts being too few cars in too many classes. And how would you work that into PI's? Especially with production cars being able to upgrade into R classes? Maybe separate them again and bring back U class, but allow it to go from U800 to U999?
 
I posted this in the standard/premium discussion thread but I'll repost here. The models in Forza 3 are in fact about 200k polygons. The LOD ones are used in game simply because the xbox360 can't handle all those polygons. Here's an extracted forza 3 model rendered by me

m5forzamodel.jpg
 
In Forza 2 they had the R classes much better. the 911 GT1 Porsche for example was an R2 in Forza 2 and was very competitive on most tracks even #1 on some. the C6 vette, the S7 Saleen, the Nissan 390 GTR and the others were competive on most tracks some a little better than others but all close. On Forza 3 the 911GT1 is a none factor due to the upgrades and the super cars that either start in the class or are allowed to enter the class. Basically none of the base R2 cars from Forza 2 are a factor in Forza 3 due to the fact that they give more performance to other cars in the same performance index.

Look at the Mosler for example. It has more power and more downforce than any of the base R2 cars when in R2.

The PI is broken but not just based on drivetrains it is broken based on performance of cars within a given class as they are all over the map and the higher the class the worse it gets.
 
I could really care less about the polygons in Forza. I just want Turn 10 to improve that got damn lighting. It makes things look too cartoonish and washed out at times other than that, both games look beautiful. I just think Forza needs more substance in its visuals.

This is the Xbox 360 we're talking about, it's not a PS2, or Xbox 1. It's capable of much more than they're putting out, and I think it's because of time constrictions and they want to make money and catch up to Gran Turismo in game numbers. However, it has everything going for it otherwise. Cockpits for every car, engine sounds that makes any other game look like a joke, very good damage, and a nice patch for shifting animation.

As someone that played F2 for hours before my box died, I'm wondering if it's worth my money because it doesn't seem much different from Forza 2, but it's kinda cheap now. Hell, I'm wondering if GT5 is worth my money. After hearing some of those cars, I'm not as excited anymore.
 
It would all be down to the LoD system.

T10's graphics guys did a very poor job of designing it. When you're very close, you should get the full car but in FM3, you don't. They seriously must have made the whole LoD system in one night and never once thought to maximise it.

And if 170,000 is the poly count in photomode/garage view then FM2 only has 17,000 at it's highest which, to be honest sounds about right. T10 simply lied about how many poly's FM2 cars had...

To be honest, if I even bother with T10's next game, it will definitely be a rental first.
 
FyreandIce
It would all be down to the LoD system.

T10's graphics guys did a very poor job of designing it. When you're very close, you should get the full car but in FM3, you don't. They seriously must have made the whole LoD system in one night and never once thought to maximise it.

And if 170,000 is the poly count in photomode/garage view then FM2 only has 17,000 at it's highest which, to be honest sounds about right. T10 simply lied about how many poly's FM2 cars had...

To be honest, if I even bother with T10's next game, it will definitely be a rental first.
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Because of the polygon count? Bit far fetched maybe?
 
An online mode, which is easily sorted.

Some displays don't work in cockpit view.

The lighting engine and the LoD.

The lack of weather or night racing.

All of which I imagine will have been solved for FM4.
 
GT5 Sceptic
An online mode, which is easily sorted.

Some displays don't work in cockpit view.

The lighting engine and the LoD.

The lack of weather or night racing.

All of which I imagine will have been solved for FM4.
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I don't doubt it at all, they've got the advantage now after GT5.
 
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